HELP...!Pistol Licence Revoke!

Tackleberry.

rowa wrote: »

I thought the Gardai anti-gun ballistics "expert" had retired last month ? Or was that just wishful thinking ?

Gussing he is having to stand over any info he provided to Supers that has now ended up in court.

clivej

A superintendent cannot make the law only apply it. So the op has every right to own the firearm he is looking to license

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

I thought the Gardai anti-gun ballistics "expert" had retired last month ? Or was that just wishful thinking ?

Seeing that I wished him best of luck on his up coming retirement when I last met him in apres court in Limerick.He assured me there is no truth in the rumour and that he was "on a course".[ A course on how to retire from the AGS apprently] But that he would be" around awhile longer."In Garda speak that could mean anything from now to X.However,this year has been quite intresting to see how quick busted flushes in the high command in AGS and DOJ can depart the scene when things start to turn up.So ya never know.Still better the devil you know an all that...

Grizzly 45

Blay wrote: »

There was a order sent around to supers a while ago saying they weren't to licence any pistol that came from the factory with a magazine over five rounds...doesn't matter if it's been welded etc. as the OP said.

My own super told me that face to face and from speaking to someone who deals with these issues in my own club others have been told the same around the country.

Also,dont take that the five round onlyOlympic style pistol is a sure bet either .There are a half dozen Hammerli Xcesse refusals on Mr Egans desk as well.
:mad:

The Aussie

What a unholy mess this is...

Cass

Dian cecht wrote:

Now, for the record I know they get "circulars" on things, including firearms licencing, which some obviously enforce as official policy, even if they know they are technically breaking the law.

clivej wrote: »

A superintendent cannot make the law only apply it.

To play Devil's advocate they are not breaking the law or making it up.

What they will claim is they are addressing an issue whereby an unrestricted firearm can be made restricted (without the appropriate license) by means of a "simple" adjustment to the magazine.

Now what they fail to comprehend is that to do so knowingly and intentionally after going through the grief of getting a license in the first place is not going to happen. I mean why would someone make the adjustments to a mag to make it capable of only holding 5 to get the license, to risk loosing it by undoing that alteration?

IOW as i said above if the character of the person was of good enough stature to allow them to get the gun in the first place then what has changed for the Super/Chief Super to call that character into question now and in a very subtle, implied, way say they might do something illegal?

So the op has every right to own the firearm he is looking to license

Nope.

He has no right or entitlement. None whatsoever. None of us have. Our only entitlement is to apply for one (unless of course you are disentitled to that too). A license can be revoked at any stage. If the reason for the revocation is not just then a court case/discussion with Super/CS will sort it out, but as i said earlier the revocation letter is legal and must be complied with immediately. You can/must fight it afterwards.

Dian Cecht

Your devils advocacy is a fair point EXCEPT this is covered under the commissioners guidelines and isn't it covered in the legislation too? Their interpretation is stretching the content of the preceding items a bit, to say the least, not to mention a fair few district court judges have decided their argument is invalid, yet they persist :rolleyes:

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

......... EXCEPT this is covered under the commissioners guidelines........

Cannot be used as a defense so you're better of concentrating on the legislation.

........ and isn't it covered in the legislation too?

What exactly?

The legislation allows for a Super or Chief Super to revoke a license on multiple grounds. The letter states that the Super has done so because the firearm, in the Super's opinion, is a restricted one and the license for an unrestricted firearm was issued in error. So legally he is covered.

The fact still remains. A letter of revocation is a legal document and must be adhered to and only after can you fight it if you believe or know it to be incorrect.

Their interpretation is stretching the content of the preceding items a bit, to say the least, not to mention a fair few district court judges have decided their argument is invalid, yet they persist :rolleyes:

Yup.

Hasn't and won't stop them.


As i said above i am only guessing as to the motives behind the letter and the cause of this thread. Only the OP can enlighten us as to what the actual reason is, which i'm guessing is the mag limit. I'm not making excuses or defending the Gardaí POV. I'm trying to discuss both sides.

Dian Cecht

My reference to the legislation was that the definition of unrestricted is in there somewhere IIRC.............no have to trawl it

At this stage the whole thing is a disaster and it depends on where you live and the subsequent attitude of your Super, hardly a good way for any licencing system to be administered, surely

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

My reference to the legislation was that the definition of unrestricted is in there somewhere IIRC.............no have to trawl it

I mentioned it above. SI 21/2008 as amended by SI337/2009.

............. hardly a good way for any licencing system to be administered, surely

Not in the least.

It's an abomination that a gun of the same caliber can be classified as safe (unrestricted) and somehow less safe (restricted) simply by the number of rounds it holds, the style of it's grips, etc. However this is only the tip of the iceberg. I don't wish to derail the OPs thread as it's too important to fade into numerous other topics as so many threads do, but there are dozens of other issues that need addressing such as:

• Air rifles classed the same as any other rifle up to .300WM
• One license per gun, and not a single license per person
• Shotguns in the same category because of the number of rounds (restricted/unrestricted)
• CF pistols effectively banned
• Lads having to take court cases over frivolous matters with no costs awarded
• Substitutions taking months not the 14 days mandated
• Full applications taking months and sometimes years as opposed to the 3 months
• Refusals supposedly being mandatory after 3 months yet lads get grants 7,8, 9, etc months later
• Suppressors being a district lottery
• Firearm applications being a district lottery
• "Firearm Officers" that are inept and out of their depth, and being appointed as a matter of who is "unlucky" enough to get the job and not who is best suited
• The complete lack of training and understanding of the same
• The bigotry of some FOs towards firearms
• The absence of Supers and the massive delays in processing
• The enactment of the Commissioner's Guidelines as law
• Improper amount of ammo on licenses (100 for a lad with an air rifle)
• The splitting of NGB's and no lobby group due to power grabs by various groups
• The constant infighting of the same

These are but a few of the problems and possibly not the most serious. So it only highlights the issues we have faced, and will continue to face.

The sorry part is for the most part AN Gardaí on the rank an file level are sound. It's when it gets to the political level that the SHTF. However as they are the authority i such matters we have to deal with them.

Nekarsulm

And if I could make a small observation, and this is without any intention to offend, but perhaps your user name is slightly counter productive, on the remote chance of a GS linking your posts to a particular case.

Traumadoc

I wonder will they apply the same rule to SA shotguns?

Cass

If they did it would not be the same as a pistol.

You can get a restricted license for a shotgun, but not for a pistol. Not since 2008.

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Also,dont take that the five round onlyOlympic style pistol is a sure bet either .There are a half dozen Hammerli Xcesse refusals on Mr Egans desk as well.
:mad:

The hammerli xesse has a 10 round magazine from the factory though, its only the true olympic target pistols such as the walter gsp that come with 5 round mags as thats all they need for the comp's they are designed for.

Grizzly 45

Yet the total irony has been lost that the Walther GSP is desgined for "rapid fire" events.An actual disipline that is supposedly illegal here.:rolleyes:

Steve012

Hope its gets sorted for you mate!,
Iv'e had a google but didn't see anywhere that do factory restricted mags for a walther/colt 1911. (in case letters start arriving at more peoples doors)
If anyone has heard of them available,much appreciated bar gunsmith here doing it.

rowa

Steve012 wrote: »

Hope its gets sorted for you mate!,
Iv'e had a google but didn't see anywhere that do factory restricted mags for a walther/colt 1911. (in case letters start arriving at more peoples doors)
If anyone has heard of them available,much appreciated bar gunsmith here doing it.

It doesn't matter if they are available or not, what the supers are saying is if it comes from the factory with 10 shot mags then its restricted, regardless of limiting the mag capacity or getting new 5 round mags.

It wasn't me!

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yet the total irony has been lost that the Walther GSP is desgined for "rapid fire" events.An actual disipline that is supposedly illegal here.:rolleyes:

Um, since when? Given rapid fire pistol is on the Olympic programme, I suspect you're completely wrong there.

Grizzly 45

IWM
Since anytime the targets or the shooters move apprently is classified as "dynamic combat ,bodygaurd training shooting"[pick your hyperbole] in Ireland.
We have a fine set up in Midlands for this ,but are precluded from using the turning mechanism because to do so is considerd dynamic,or so I am told.Its also why "running boar" cant be shot here either,or pop up targets are not allowed either and why most of the timed events are done here by whistle blasts.Could be wrong,but thats what I have been told by those who organise shoots here.IOW just the usual clusterfuk of Irish firearms laws.

loonymoony

rowa wrote: »

It doesn't matter if they are available or not, what the supers are saying is if it comes from the factory with 10 shot mags then its restricted, regardless of limiting the mag capacity or getting new 5 round mags.

Opens up a can of worms for plugged shotguns then! enjoy all those court cases Mr Law!

It wasn't me!

Targets don't move for RFP. Electromechanical units rotate in accordance with the times, but electronic targets obviously don't, the timings being denoted by range commands and lights at the target end. Ranges have been authorised for ISSF rapid fire pistol, with the authorising Gardai fully cognisant of the fact that shots occur across five separate targets.

Heckler

I'm guessing that a large percentage of people shooting pistol here have these plugged magazines or revolvers with a chamber blocked. Does this mean its possible they (and myself now having just gotten a licence for a Hammerli xesse. Haven't even picked up the gun yet. Stated on application that the RFD would be plugging the magazines) are in danger of getting a licence revoked letter ?

Thats madness if true. Could it be that the GSG 1911 is one of the don'tlikethelookofthat firearms and they're using the magazine issue as an excuse ? Although as said earlier hammerlis have been refused because of the magazine issue.

Whole thing is a mess. What about plugged shotguns ? Whats even the reasoning behind 5 vs 10 round magazines ? Ok to have 10 magazines with 5 rounds in each but illegal to have one with 10 rounds. Bonkers.

Cass

loonymoony wrote: »

Opens up a can of worms for plugged shotguns then!

Heckler wrote: »

What about plugged shotguns ?

Lads can we drop the issue about shotguns. I said it above that it's not the same thing.

Cass wrote: »

If they did it would not be the same as a pistol.

You can get a restricted license for a shotgun, but not for a pistol. Not since 2008.

So even if they tried to introduce such measures you can still apply for a restricted license for a shotgun, however NO NEW licenses are granted for restricted short firearms.

Whats even the reasoning behind 5 vs 10 round magazines ?

I believe it stems form the Olympic stuff.

Someone that knows about such things can confirm or correct, but they use 5 shots per detail so this was deemed safe and also not interfere with Olympic shooting. All the rest of pistol shooting is viewed as "combat training" hence the bigotry towards it.

Grizzly 45

UOTE=Heckler;91263960]I'm guessing that a large percentage of people shooting pistol here have these plugged magazines or revolvers with a chamber blocked. Does this mean its possible they (and myself now having just gotten a licence for a Hammerli xesse. Haven't even picked up the gun yet. Stated on application that the RFD would be plugging the magazines) are in danger of getting a licence revoked letter ?

Anything is possible in this lunacy that passes for firearms legislation here.

Thats madness if true. Could it be that the GSG 1911 is one of the don'tlikethelookofthat firearms and they're using the magazine issue as an excuse ? Although as said earlier hammerlis have been refused because of the magazine issue.

Nail.On.Head. With the excuse that pretty much all "Non Olympic" pistols come with default 10 round mags as manufactured,and are hardly likely just to make for Ireland 5 rounders,the AGS think they have us snookerd....Doubling it by saying converted mags are unacceptable by Irish gun dealers or smiths ,and that thy have to be factory produced...And that if it is a restricted short firearm it is unliscenseable.

Whole thing is a mess. What about plugged shotguns ? Whats even the reasoning behind 5 vs 10 round magazines ? Ok to have 10 magazines with 5 rounds in each but illegal to have one with 10 rounds. Bonkers.

Why do you think they are/were a target in the recent proposed gun ban legislation?Utter clusterfuk caused by the paranoia and ignorance of the people in charge of this state regarding firearms.

Heckler

So i get a licence which now apparently could be revoked at any time but someone in a different district is refused because of an individuals reading or interpretation of the law ? Madness.

Sparks

Honestly, reading the OP and knowing some of the background (of the issue, not this specific case), I don't think this is going to get resolved without a Judge's decision, however I understood there was a sub judice case on this specific point at the moment, so the OP's question might get resolved without him having to go to court. There might be a non-legal solution there in the form of leaving the pistol with the RFD until that case was resolved.

Apart from that, I think this is one of those few cases where a court is the actual next step; but I'm not going to recommend any specific solicitor and I wouldn't be of the opinion that there is always one and only one best choice of solicitor for specific kinds of legal cases. And I would seek recommendations from other solicitors or the law society rather than people whose job title is not solicitor or barrister. That's what I would do, your milage may vary, stock prices may go up as well as down, etc, etc.

If a court option is the one the OP chooses to pursue though, we really can't - and the OP shouldn't - talk about it here until it's completed. Sub judice rules make it technical contempt of court for one thing, and it's an adversarial process where openly publishing your intended arguments ahead of time is inadvisable, for another.

Blay wrote: »

There was a order sent around to supers a while ago saying they weren't to licence any pistol that came from the factory with a magazine over five rounds...doesn't matter if it's been welded etc. as the OP said.

My own super told me that face to face and from speaking to someone who deals with these issues in my own club others have been told the same around the country.

I'd still not believe it until I saw a copy with my own eyes. Anyone signing their name to, and distributing a letter like that would be acting in contempt of the Supreme Court's ruling on blanket preconditions and their name would be on it. That's a long long walk beyond adjusting application forms or making a decision that's later found to be unsound...

And unless you had the proof, that's a hefty defamation case if you said it about a serving named Garda member, so keep that one in mind before naming names in public (ie. here!)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yet the total irony has been lost that the Walther GSP is desgined for "rapid fire" events.An actual disipline that is supposedly illegal here.:rolleyes:

Yeah, the GSP's not actually designed for the rapid fire event, as that event was using the .22short when the GSP was designed (ironically, if you had the OSP, the Walther that was designed for rapid fire, that's not licencable anymore because the restricted list SI excludes non-.22lr smallbore pistols).

As to the designation of the Olympic rapid fire event as "dynamic shooting", (a) we've never had a definition of "dynamic shooting" and (b) we've been told by the PTB that it doesn't apply to a few events, Olympic rapid fire included.

Grizzly 45

OK my mistake..i thought the GSP was a rapid fire pistol.:o

As to the designation of the Olympic rapid fire event as "dynamic shooting", (a) we've never had a definition of "dynamic shooting" and (b) we've been told by the PTB that it doesn't apply to a few events, Olympic rapid fire included.

a] ASFIK anything that involves movement of either shooter or target from a non stationary position is classified as combat or dynamic shooting here.
b]So which events are then kosher here ??Be nice if we could get running boar going here,which is also used as a hunting training aid in Germany.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

OK my mistake..i thought the GSP was a rapid fire pistol.:o

Well, these days you can see them being used in the rapid fire event; the rules for Olympic rapid fire were changed a few years back to switch from .22short to .22long so the specialist pistols like the OSP became useless for their original purpose (which is why they're so cheap these days). But the GSP really wasn't designed for the event and there are serious drawbacks to using it (mainly caused by the recoil) and most manufacturers just came out with specific rapid-fire pistols in .22lr very soon after the rules changed. It's like using a browning buckmark in an ISSF .22lr match - yes, you can, and for a beginner or someone just looking to give it a try, that's grand and it'll do you for the first few years, but get serious about it at all and you'll quickly reach limits where the pistol is holding you back rather than your own abilities.

a] ASFIK anything that involves movement of either shooter or target from a non stationary position is classified as combat or dynamic shooting here.

Depends on who you talk to, unfortunately. Remember, we don't even have a definition of "target shooting" in primary statute law, let alone any specific kind of target shooting.
So the Gardai might have one opinion (and more likely, Ballistics has one, the FPU has another, and all 180-odd Supers have their own too), the DoJ might have another, we might have another (probably several others), and so on.
You'd wind up in a courtroom before you got a definitive answer at this stage. That's the problem with badly written laws.

b]So which events are then kosher here ??Be nice if we could get running boar going here,which is also used as a hunting training aid in Germany.

As far as I understood from what we've heard, ISSF rapid fire pistol and running target (which is both the 10m running target and the 50m running boar you're referring to), PPC shooting and Clay pigeon shooting were considered "kosher" even by the PTB (though obviously with at least one dissenter from time to time). It was only the IDPA and IPSC styles that ever had a minister specifically looking to ban them, and I think we all share the same opinion on the merits of that particular policy of his.

loftypheasant

I better be careful. I have an under and over shotgun with two 28'' barrels. I engage in 'rapid fire' ,'dynamic' shooting where myself and the target are moving, be it a pheasant or a clay pigeon. Should I loose the run of myself (which I won't), I could take an angle grinder and shorten the barrels to make it into 'sawn off shotgun'! I cannot think of a factory modification that would prevent me from doing this. The particular model of gun also ships from the factory with shorter barrels so the safest option for the guards would be to ban this model (and similar models) or to ban the ownership of angle grinders/hacksaws by firearms licence holders. I'll stop now because I feel nauseous from all my sarcasm and the appalling behaviour of the guards and dept of 'justice' and the politicians. The whole system, if it could be described as such, is a crock of s***!

Sparks

loftypheasant wrote: »

Should I loose the run of myself (which I won't), I could take an angle grinder and shorten the barrels to make it into 'sawn off shotgun'!

Well, there's the weakest point in this whole mess, isn't it? I have a car that (downhill with a following wind) can probably do 130kph, but that'd be illegal everywhere in Ireland; yet I can own it and tax it and insure it and drive it with a licence...