Have to activate central-heating in order to top up the boiler pressure.

mrcheez

cheers but I think you might be getting the threads mixed up, this problem is separate to the leak issue.

The leak might actually be fixed now since we put the Fernox in. This issue is that I need to turn on the boiler heating in order to top-up the pressure (say I need to top up the pressure every year or so after bleeding the rads).

It's not a major concern in itself, but Worcester Bosch have expressed concern that it might invalidate my 7 year boiler warranty.

So really the system isn't working as it should, and that is the problem.


The electrician that did the zoning controls is coming over next week for a separate issue so it's possible there's a setting on the controls that is closing the valves unless the system is activated.

Failing that, yes I'll get deWar or someone over... any recommendations on a large company I could get to look at this?

Dtp1979

mrcheez wrote: »

cheers but I think you might be getting the threads mixed up, this problem is separate to the leak issue.

The leak might actually be fixed now since we put the Fernox in. This issue is that I need to turn on the boiler heating in order to top-up the pressure (say I need to top up the pressure every year or so after bleeding the rads).

It's not a major concern in itself, but Worcester Bosch have expressed concern that it might invalidate my 7 year boiler warranty.

So really the system isn't working as it should, and that is the problem.


The electrician that did the zoning controls is coming over next week for a separate issue so it's possible there's a setting on the controls that is closing the valves unless the system is activated.

Failing that, yes I'll get deWar or someone over... any recommendations on a large company I could get to look at this?

Why a large company? Get someone local and well recommended who'll actually give a shjt about the job

mrcheez

I'm assuming that a larger company are easier to research online to find out if they know what they are talking about, plus they would have a reputation to uphold, etc.

Probably guaranteed to have insurance in case they damaged the setup too.

I've no way of knowing if Joe Bloggs from up the road will understand the system and be more qualified than the RGI guys I've used.

Dtp1979

mrcheez wrote: »

I'm assuming that a larger company are easier to research online to find out if they know what they are talking about, plus they would have a reputation to uphold, etc.

Probably guaranteed to have insurance in case they damaged the setup too.

I've no way of knowing if Joe Bloggs from up the road will understand the system and be more qualified than the RGI guys I've used.

We'll look where the big boys have left you already. Post your location and maybe somebody could recommend someone good to you

mrcheez

Dtp1979 wrote: »

We'll look where the big boys have left you already.

To be honest, I'm glad I went with a big company for this job as, even though there were some slip ups, they have been actively involved in trying to find a solution simply because they have a lot more at stake.

Where there were previous issues they have fixed them with no additional charge and some of the smaller-time setups would have walked a long time ago.

I'm based in Dublin, but I'd still rather get an organization involved rather than a single plumber as 3 separate plumbers from this current RGI couldn't solve the issue (and yes they did know their stuff on other problems so they weren't complete amateurs).

Dtp1979

mrcheez wrote: »

To be honest, I'm glad I went with a big company for this job as, even though there were some slip ups, they have been actively involved in trying to find a solution simply because they have a lot more at stake.

Where there were previous issues they have fixed them with no additional charge and some of the smaller-time setups would have walked a long time ago.

I'm based in Dublin, but I'd still rather get an organization involved rather than a single plumber as 3 separate plumbers from this current RGI couldn't solve the issue (and yes they did know their stuff on other problems so they weren't complete amateurs).

Weren't the 3 guys that called out to you from the same big company???

mrcheez

I don't understand your point. Are you claiming they know what the issue is and are refusing to fix it?

I can tell if someone is trying to pull a fast one. They have actively tried different methods to resolve the issue (including re-routing pipes etc... for example bypassing a Magna clean as it may have had a one-way valve) and can't seem to sort it.

Dtp1979

mrcheez wrote: »

I don't understand your point. Are you claiming they know what the issue is and are refusing to fix it?

I can tell if someone is trying to pull a fast one. They have actively tried different methods to resolve the issue (including re-routing pipes etc... for example bypassing a Magna clean as it may have had a one-way valve) and can't seem to sort it.

If 3 different rgi's couldn't solve such a simple issue then it says a lot for their capabilities. Laughable actually.

mrcheez

How do you know it's a simple issue?

Like, for example, what are the possible reasons the heating system has to be active for water to come through to top-up the boiler pressure?

Dtp1979

mrcheez wrote: »

How do you know it's a simple issue?

Like, for example, what are the possible reasons the heating system has to be active for water to come through to top-up the boiler pressure?

Chances are it's piped arseways

K.Flyer

mrcheez wrote: »

To be honest, I'm glad I went with a big company for this job as, even though there were some slip ups, they have been actively involved in trying to find a solution simply because they have a lot more at stake.

Where there were previous issues they have fixed them with no additional charge and some of the smaller-time setups would have walked a long time ago.

I'm based in Dublin, but I'd still rather get an organization involved rather than a single plumber as 3 separate plumbers from this current RGI couldn't solve the issue (and yes they did know their stuff on other problems so they weren't complete amateurs).

Using a "big" company means absolutely nothing.
A lot of my work is resolving issues on gas and oil boiler installs that were previously attended to by others, including a couple of the "bigger" companies. There are a lot of one-man-show operators who can run rings around any "big" company you care to put in front of them, so don't be knocking the solo guys.
At this stage if they cannot figure where they went wrong they need to step aside and you need to let someone else look at it.

Robbie.G

mrcheez wrote: »

How do you know it's a simple issue?

Like, for example, what are the possible reasons the heating system has to be active for water to come through to top-up the boiler pressure?

If the feed pipe to the heating was moved to the other pipe more than likely problem will be resolved.
It seams to be unable to fill due to pressure from possibly a non return valve so when the boiler pump starts it moved the water releaves pressure and let's it fill.

mrcheez

K.Flyer wrote: »

Using a "big" company means absolutely nothing.
....There are a lot of one-man-show operators who can run rings around any "big" company you care to put in front of them, so don't be knocking the solo guys.

No I think you're missing the point I'm making. I'm not saying big companies have better plumbers, I'm saying that if something goes wrong they're less likely to "disappear" and can more easily be held accountable.

mrcheez

Robbie.G wrote: »

If the feed pipe to the heating was moved to the other pipe more than likely problem will be resolved.
It seams to be unable to fill due to pressure from possibly a non return valve so when the boiler pump starts it moved the water releaves pressure and let's it fill.

Handy thanks. I can provide more pics of the setup if that's any use?

Is there any chance the zoning controls are playing any part in this? The electrician involved is coming over next week for something else so I can ask him to check them.

Robbie.G

mrcheez wrote: »

Handy thanks. I can provide more pics of the setup if that's any use?

Is there any chance the zoning controls are playing any part in this? The electrician involved is coming over next week for something else so I can ask him to check them.

It's highly unlikely that there's an electrical issue.
The problems plumbing as the other boys suggested maybe get in a independent plumber to have a look and advise.If you post what part of dublin your in there are some very competent and qualified lads here that would be able to sort you.
If you post more pics follow fill loop to boiler and pipe work all round you would need to take multiple pics so we can see every thing. Is there any other heat source connected to heating

mrcheez

Cool, i'll sort the pics in the morn, cheers

K.Flyer

I have just been looking again at the picture you posted back on page 2.
What is the current pressure on the boiler?
If the pressure is low and you turn the grey handle on the filling valve can you hear any water movement through the valve?

mrcheez

Current pressure is 1.5. Turning the screw on the valve in 2nd pic and I can hear the sound of water. Is the screw what you mean by "handle"?

scudo2

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Weren't the 3 guys that called out to you from the same big company???

Advice thats been given here is from TOP profesional installers, Dpt, Robby,k.flyer and myself+ more, free of charge, were kept busy fixing bigger companys instulations !
Call another good independent installer, in this trade, size isn't always better.
You'll find good and bad on both sides.
To me, (and most installers) heating systems are basic and simple to understand and fix, but I'm in Cork !

Legal route is more expensive.

Ask friends or plumbing suppliers for good local recomandations, never go by big flash add's.
Word of mouth is better.

Recession !!! I'm still turning down work.

K.Flyer

mrcheez wrote: »

Current pressure is 1.5. Turning the screw on the valve in 2nd pic and I can hear the sound of water. Is the screw what you mean by "handle"?

Sorry, yes valve slot. (Usually they have a handle).
So pressure is now fine.
So going back over the thread, the original problem was that on one occasion you were told that you had to turn on the boiler to help to increase the pressure, but prior to that there was no need to turn on the boiler to increase pressure. (Do I have that bit right?)
Now that the pressure is up to normal is the boiler operating as it should do, heating water and rads?

mrcheez

Well the boiler has always been working fine, even when the pressure was 0! Robust Worcester Bosch apparently.

Water and rad heating has never been a problem.

There was a leak (mentioned in a separate thread) although this appears to be fixed with Fernox F4 (so far.. I'll give it 2 weeks before I know for sure)

Essentially the problem is that the process to top up the boiler isn't the norm, and so my boiler warranty is at risk according to WB.

K.Flyer

O.K.
But what I am trying ascertain is this..
Was there a time when you could increase the pressure without having to turn on the boiler?

mrcheez

No. I've only had the system for less than 8 months and only tried to top up the pressure first time when I saw it was 0 two months ago.

From this I found out:
- i've got a leak somewhere
- I couldn't top up the pressure by opening the valve (the plumber was the one who found it topped up when the boiler was active.. He also initially couldn't understand why it wouldn't top up normally...the conversation is mentioned in post #1)

mrcheez

I'm off for the night will post up pics in the morn..cheers for the help all

K.Flyer

I think I might know where the problem is... Robbie.G's earlier post got me thinking..


MrCheez has a combi-boiler and inside the boiler is a diverter valve which the default setting will be DHW, which usually means that in this state, (boiler off or C.H. off), the flow to the radiator circuit is closed.
If the flow pipe from the boiler is running straight to the two zone valves without a by-pass and the zone valves are closed, then that's a sealed pipe. Now if the filling loop is connected somewhere along this pipe, then when the filling valve is opened it is only pressurising this section of pipework and it will not have an impact on the pressure gauge in the boiler.
Turning on the boiler, (calling to heat radiators) opens the zone valves and of course moves the diverter valve, fully opening the circuit and allows the gauge to show the true pressure of the system as its being filled.
The solution should be, as Robbie.G said, is to move the filling valve over to the return pipe, as this pipe should still be open back to the pump housing where usually the connection for the pressure gauge is.
So basically the filling loop connection should be on the C.H. return pipe on the boiler side of any zone valves.


(or a slight variation of the above)

mrcheez

Here are first batch of images in order of...

- Starting under boiler
- Heading toward pipes on right
- Ultimately reaching the water tank on RHS

mrcheez

Continuing showing where the loop pipe was moved (from position in pics earlier in the thread)

Last pic shows boiler pressure at 1.6

Any tips on what I can ask the RGI to look at would be appreciated thanks!

K.Flyer

According to the boiler installation manual, on page 10 of the pre-installation section, it shows a standard filling loop on the return pipe, which, it appears, is what your installers have now set up.


Can you now increase the pressure without turning on the boiler?


W.B. in their both their installation DVD for this boiler, and in the installation manual on page 21, also show the fitting of their own dedicated filling system (charging link assembly) which attaches to the service valves under the boiler. Check to see if one has been fitted, it should be attached linking the furthest right pipe and the one to its left.
(although looking at the pic of the pipes under the boiler there does not appear to be one there)


If the original problem still exists and this filling system has not been fitted, then fitting one may be part of the solution.

Egass13

Really interested to find out what this is going to be !
On a side note though , do you have the power off or boiler switch off in the 3rd pic ? Just you have no display on the screen ...

mrcheez

Egass13 wrote: »

Really interested to find out what this is going to be !
On a side note though , do you have the power off or boiler switch off in the 3rd pic ? Just you have no display on the screen ...

nah was flash on camera