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Oireachtas TV

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    #302
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Infoanon wrote: »
    To make the channel available to the widest potential audience it needs carriage on Sky /Virgin etc

    That is completely untrue.

    There is no obligation for Oireachtas TV to be on any other platform other than a fta platform.

    What would make it requestable (to satisfy platform neutrality) by another platform is if it existed fta. Once Free to Air, the likes of Sky and UPC can request the channel under the must offer rule. The Sky and UPC can carry it but not charge anymore for that content to its subscribers.

    In this instance the Oireachtas entered into commercial contracts with Sky and UPC whilst not fulfilling its role to be made available FTA on Saorview. There is no legal requirement for these commercial contracts currently in place. Infact people should be asking why 250k of taxpayers money was paid to stick Oireachtas TV behind a paywall. They couldn't have moved further from what the 2009 Broadcasting legislation set out (having been carried through both sets of Houses!).


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    #303
    galtee boy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭galtee boy


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    No it doesn't.

    It is a channel primarily for those who reside in Ireland.
    Saorview is available to 98% of Ireland.
    Saorview is Free To Air.
    [
    Saorview is the obvious primary service on which it should be carried.
    To make it available to the diaspora then an on-line stream is all that is needed. (Is this not already there?)

    There is no reason whatsoever to make payment to foreign companies to carry the channel.
    If they want to carry it then by all means let them, but making payments to them to do so is ridiculous ...... and could easily be considered to be mismanagement of finances.

    Saorview is not the primary tv service in Ireland, whether we like it or not, it's a secondary service to feed kitchen and bedroom TVs and even this is diminishing with multiroom options becoming cheaper from the pay operators. The vast majority of people in Ireland use Sky and Virgin for their main TV viewing and therefore Oireachtas TV needs to be on these services to reach as wide an audience as possible.


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    #304
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    galtee boy wrote: »
    Saorview is not the primary tv service in Ireland,

    It is the primary Irish service and as such has obligations to those living in Ireland.
    It fulfils those obligations by reaching 98% of the population.

    If some or all of those people chose not to receive the service that is their individual choice.
    The service is provided.
    whether we like it or not, it's a secondary service to feed kitchen and bedroom TVs and even this is diminishing with multiroom options becoming cheaper from the pay operators. The vast majority of people in Ireland use Sky and Virgin for their main TV viewing and therefore Oireachtas TV needs to be on these services to reach as wide an audience as possible.

    Neither Sky not Virgin has the 'reach' of Saorview.
    Neither reach any quantity of people in Ireland not reached by Saorview.
    Saorview reaches far more of the population.

    What people individually chose to do about that is not relevant.

    It is a waste of Irish taxpayers money to pay for carriage on services that do not improve the reach of the channel to the target audience.


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    #305
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    It's all fine taking a principles pro-Saorview stand and saying that it's up to others to take steps to receive. But if people vote with their feet to watch a platform your channel isn't available on, then you have another problem. This isn't RTE One we're talking about here, this is a channel that the vast majority of the general public neither know about nor care about whether they receive it or not - and they aren't going to change platforms to recieve it.


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    #306
    ftakeith
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭ftakeith


    icdg wrote: »
    It's all fine taking a principles pro-Saorview stand and saying that it's up to others to take steps to receive. But if people vote with their feet to watch a platform your channel isn't available on, then you have another problem. This isn't RTE One we're talking about here, this is a channel that the vast majority of the general public neither know about nor care about whether they receive it or not - and they aren't going to change platforms to recieve it.

    Totally agree

    Any major Oireachtas live coverage that is usually relayed on RTE News Now or RTE1

    RTE and Oireachtas should have came together to have any channel under the RTE logo, than casual viewers would may watch oireachtas content


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    #307
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Simply put if the Oireachtas had aired first on Soarview the must carry obligation would have carried through to UPC, Sky and others. Instead of pressuring Pay TV provided they took the easy option of pressuring 2RN the Public Service Muxes provider.

    The Member of the Oireachtas had plenty of time to change their minds and make different laws, such as the provision for RTÉ Oireachtas like BBC Parliament which they all seem to mention.


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    #308
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    galtee boy wrote: »
    Saorview is not the primary tv service in Ireland, whether we like it or not, it's a secondary service to feed kitchen and bedroom TVs and even this is diminishing with multiroom options becoming cheaper from the pay operators. The vast majority of people in Ireland use Sky and Virgin for their main TV viewing and therefore Oireachtas TV needs to be on these services to reach as wide an audience as possible.

    This is nonsense.

    Just because it has been given a brand name, it is still the national broadcasting service. No-one suggests that the old analogue service was not the primary broadcasting service when it provided RTE 1 and RTE 2 to the nation. It is still the same service - only significantly better as it now provides full service to 98% of households. TV3 was never available to more than 80% of households because TV3 would not pay the transmission costs - and currently they will not pay for HD transmission.

    The only reason people pay for TV is because they want to avail of UK TV, many not realising that they can receive it for free quite legally, and for little trouble.

    Looking at the Irish media and the politicians, including RTE, most journos and other commentators are unaware of Saorview and Freesat and its availability.

    During the Saorview launch (which they did twice), RTE appeared to be unable to mention that Freesat/FTA existed and that few people needed to pay Sky/NTL for their TV. Why?

    Saorview does not need to compete with Sky/NTL - it is free and already there and paid for - so why this idea that it competes with a pay platform? We do not compare walking with going by car or bus.


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    #309
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    icdg wrote: »
    It's all fine taking a principles pro-Saorview stand and saying that it's up to others to take steps to receive. But if people vote with their feet to watch a platform your channel isn't available on, then you have another problem. This isn't RTE One we're talking about here, this is a channel that the vast majority of the general public neither know about nor care about whether they receive it or not - and they aren't going to change platforms to recieve it.

    This has nothing to do with taking a pro-saorview stance. It could easily be said that taking the "platform neutrality" stand is not helpful.

    The point here is that a publicly funded government body has been whinging via various Press statements made by the Ceann Comhairle about Saorview the network operator not giving Oireachtas TV free carriage (despite the undertakings already given in the legislation that they had to pay) whilst also engaging in €250,000 private carriage contracts with pay only TV platforms, to which there is no requirement to do so.

    They should have paid for their carriage on Saorview (that is the states free to air platform whether you like it or not) rather than paying Sky for carriage, to which only a limited no of the public can view. We all know why they chose to do this - VANITY.

    Sky would never have requested the Oireachtas Channel under the must offer rule.
    galtee boy wrote: »
    Saorview is not the primary tv service in Ireland, whether we like it or not.

    Yes it is. It is the primary vehicle for the delivery of broadcast services licensed and regulated in Ireland.


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    #310
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    icdg wrote: »
    It's all fine taking a principles pro-Saorview stand and saying that it's up to others to take steps to receive. But if people vote with their feet to watch a platform your channel isn't available on, then you have another problem. This isn't RTE One we're talking about here, this is a channel that the vast majority of the general public neither know about nor care about whether they receive it or not - and they aren't going to change platforms to recieve it.

    There was no mention of 'changing platforms'.
    A great number access both DVB-T and DVB-S.
    Saorview is on DVB-T.
    If people choose not to receive it that is their business.

    There is no logical reason that the Irish taxpayer should have to pay for the Oireachtas channel to be on DVB-S.

    Being on DVB-T it is already available to 98% of the population whether they choose to receive it or not.


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    #311
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    You'll find that - in Dublin in particular, and in longtime cabled towns in general - there are masses of houses set up only to access DVB-C or DVB-S. (You are forgetting the history of cable in Dublin as a replacement for, not a supplement to, analogue terrestrial. These homes never had, don't have, and have no interest in investing in DVB-T. Why would they, just for the Oireachtas channel.

    Saorview may be government policy now, but from the late 1960s to the mid 1990s, Government policy in Dublin was all about encouraging urban homes to ditch their terrestrial aerials and take up pay TV, and large chunks of the cable network in Dublin were built by none other than RTE itself. And that was such a spectacular success that, as late as 2002, take up of cable in Dublin was nearly 90% of homes passed. Saorview is a minority player in Dublin, because of its background as being an almost completely cabled city.


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    #312
    galtee boy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭galtee boy


    icdg wrote: »
    You'll find that - in Dublin in particular, and in longtime cabled towns in general - there are masses of houses set up only to access DVB-C or DVB-S. (You are forgetting the history of cable in Dublin as a replacement for, not a supplement to, analogue terrestrial. These homes never had, don't have, and have no interest in investing in DVB-T. Why would they, just for the Oireachtas channel.

    Saorview may be government policy now, but from the late 1960s to the mid 1990s, Government policy in Dublin was all about encouraging urban homes to ditch their terrestrial aerials and take up pay TV, and large chunks of the cable network in Dublin were built by none other than RTE itself. And that was such a spectacular success that, as late as 2002, take up of cable in Dublin was nearly 90% of homes passed. Saorview is a minority player in Dublin, because of its background as being an almost completely cabled city.

    Totally agree that Saorview is a minority player in Dublin and further to that, and I'll probably be crucified for this, but Saorview is a minority player " down the country" also.The vast majority of people in the " country" use Sky. That's what I mean about Saorview not being the primary service. Of course Oireachtas TV should be on Saorview, but it must also be on Sky and Virgin, because they are the platforms most used for TV viewing in this country.


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    #313
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Personally I don't care how many alternate services that carry any/all of the Irish channels, including the Oireachtas channel.

    Saorview continues to be the primary Irish service.

    There should be no payment made (by us) to other services to carry any of the Irish channels, which are all FTA on Saorview.

    The situation with the Oireachtas channel going on subscription services prior to Saorview is a real disgrace.

    The fact that payment was made to achieve that is despicable.


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    #314
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    icdg wrote: »
    You'll find that - in Dublin in particular, and in longtime cabled towns in general - there are masses of houses set up only to access DVB-C or DVB-S. (You are forgetting the history of cable in Dublin as a replacement for, not a supplement to, analogue terrestrial. These homes never had, don't have, and have no interest in investing in DVB-T. Why would they, just for the Oireachtas channel.

    Saorview may be government policy now, but from the late 1960s to the mid 1990s, Government policy in Dublin was all about encouraging urban homes to ditch their terrestrial aerials and take up pay TV, and large chunks of the cable network in Dublin were built by none other than RTE itself. And that was such a spectacular success that, as late as 2002, take up of cable in Dublin was nearly 90% of homes passed. Saorview is a minority player in Dublin, because of its background as being an almost completely cabled city.

    In the sixties, Dublin was an aviation hazard with all the aerial towers to enable the good people of Dublin to receive BBC TV from Belfast. Cable allowed the dismantling of all those hazards. RTE Relays was one of the cable companies involved (as a commercial enterprise).
    galtee boy wrote: »
    Totally agree that Saorview is a minority player in Dublin and further to that, and I'll probably be crucified for this, but Saorview is a minority player " down the country" also.The vast majority of people in the " country" use Sky. That's what I mean about Saorview not being the primary service. Of course Oireachtas TV should be on Saorview, but it must also be on Sky and Virgin, because they are the platforms most used for TV viewing in this country.

    The fact that more people choose to pay Sky does not make them 'primary', it merely makes them the most popular.

    Again, Sky was the only means of receiving BBC etc 'down the country' once deflectors were outlawed. It was not the only way of receiving RTE for over 90% of those people.

    I can receive a perfect Saorview signal in Dublin 4 on a bent piece of wire placed next to the TV in the bedroom - cost zero with signal strength 100% and Q=100%. I cannot get Sky unless I sign up to a pay service with a minimum contract which is subject to annual increases in price. However, I get Freesat for free with all the BBCs and ITVs, but not Oireachtas TV as it is not on Freesat or FTA.

    The politicians have voted themselves the right to use bus lanes, generous expenses, free mobile phones and ipads, free printing to send their voters calenders at Christmas, but deny us free Oireachtas TV, but are prepared to pay Sky €250,000/yr to carry it. That takes some neck.

    Is there a way we can vote them all out?


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    #315
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Is there a way we can vote them all out?

    We w/could ....... IF we had alternatives who would not do the same! :(


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    #316
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Both Sky and Virgin are european commercial services. They have no obligation to provide a premium TV service to their customers if they don't pay a subscription to their company. But if people are opting to go to them; that is their choice. I can't dispute that choice if they make it.

    Saorview is the primary service for Television and Radio stations based in Ireland. 98% of the population will have access to the service if they had stuck in an aerial to their Saorview TV or box & paid their TV Licence.

    OTV's non availability on Saorview at first was seen to be a very mean-spirited move by our house of parliament. A cheaper payment to 2RN should have been a priority instead of going on cable only for an initial period of time. It was a strange move to place it on UPC on a trial basis at first because, of limits on it's own infrastructure, not everybody in the country had access to the channel if they didn't pay for UPC & had access to it via their STB.

    I do find it amazing and laughable that yet another trial period of OTV is happening on Saorview but I'm hopeful that some more positive news about it's permanent placing on the service will be done in the future.


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    #317
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    dublinman1990 wrote: »

    I do find it amazing and laughable that yet another trial period of OTV is happening on Saorview but I'm hopeful that some more positive news about it's permanent placing on the service will be done in the future.

    I would think that it is a holding position until they can alter the law so that RTE carry the cost.

    There is a significant anti-RTE bias within the Dail as they take every opportunity to bash them, the main one being the licence fee - syphoning it off as much as possible while refusing any increase. RTE must pay the OAP free TV licence, TG4 subvention, pay for all the orchestras etc, while the likes of Setanta and TV3 get sound and vision funding from it. [TV3 complain they get none of the licence fee which is incorrect, but they also got a big write off at the tax payers expense and have now been sold for a sum in excess of the write off.


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    #318
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,517 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    I do find it amazing and laughable that yet another trial period of OTV is happening on Saorview but I'm hopeful that some more positive news about it's permanent placing on the service will be done in the future.

    The last trial was a short 7 day technical trial to determine the best bitrate for the lowest carriage cost. This one should become part of the permanent channel line up, "subject to the completion of certain technical and regulatory arrangements", according to the Oireachtas press release.


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    #319
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    so are they going to pay for it or not?


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    #320
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    Can you find out what's coming up on Oireachtas TV?


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    #321
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,517 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    expectationlost wrote: »
    so are they going to pay for it or not?

    We don't know. The reference to "regulatory arrangements" in the press release could indicate some deal has/will be done.


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    #322
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,517 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    Can you find out what's coming up on Oireachtas TV?

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/watchoireachtastv/tvschedule/#d.en.14830


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    #323
    AwaitYourReply
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭AwaitYourReply


    galtee boy wrote: »
    Totally agree that Saorview is a minority player in Dublin and further to that, and I'll probably be crucified for this, but Saorview is a minority player " down the country" also.The vast majority of people in the " country" use Sky. That's what I mean about Saorview not being the primary service. Of course Oireachtas TV should be on Saorview, but it must also be on Sky and Virgin, because they are the platforms most used for TV viewing in this country.

    I hear what you are saying about what will like to believe and what is factually correct in terms of figures.

    With this in mind, do we have any recent figures in relation to how many viewers are subscribing to pay or free tv digital platforms. We hear figures like 98% and Saorview in the same sentence a lot but how many % currently use the service albeit whether it is their Main TV or secondary TV feed around the house?

    Saorview Irish Digital Terrestrial TV platform ?% - (operated by RTÉNL/2rn)
    Saorsat Irish Digital Satellite TV platform ?% (operated by RTÉNL/2rn)
    Sky Digital (Ireland) ?%
    eir E-vision iptv ?%
    Virgin Media Ireland (Liberty Global) ?%
    Free-To-Air digital satellite tv, UK Freeview, UK FreeSat (Various Others) ?%
    Vodafone Ireland ?%

    I am all for plenty of choice however; my main concern is that if a viable numbers of citizens in Ireland do not support a healthy sustainable non-subscription model like Saorview, we will give too much advantage to other operators from outside the country which may seem fine in theory right now but I think it would be smart if we build and maintain one model that is run and provided by an Irish run organization.

    We can't be expecting a pay tv operator like Sky or Virgin Media to uphold values that are important to people in Ireland as they are purely run on a commercially sustainable model only.

    Choice is important so long as the Irish model is not allowed to become completely irrelevant on the TV scene here in Ireland but I think competition from the other operators can also be a very good thing if the right balance is struck. Saorview needs to up it's game and fast or it risks failing very quickly.


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    #324
    AwaitYourReply
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭AwaitYourReply


    icdg wrote: »
    It's all fine taking a principles pro-Saorview stand and saying that it's up to others to take steps to receive. But if people vote with their feet to watch a platform your channel isn't available on, then you have another problem. This isn't RTE One we're talking about here, this is a channel that the vast majority of the general public neither know about nor care about whether they receive it or not - and they aren't going to change platforms to recieve it.

    There is a certain amount of truth in relation to the likely viewing pattern of a channel like Oireachtas TV versus a general entertainment channel like RTÉ One television.

    Forgive me if this comes across as a ridiculous question but how come Oireachtas TV would approach Sky Digital UK and pay it €250,000 in relation to the channel going on the Astra satellite as it was encrypted on digital satellite last time I did a scan a few months ago? I cannot imagine any programming rights / geo restriction issues with a channel of this nature being scanned and picked-up outside of these shores given the type of content involved here.

    The same issue would apply to a channel like RTÉ News Now if and when it ever goes on to digital satellite tv. These channels should be able to go free-to-air at this stage surely like BBC Parliament and the BBC News channel ?


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    #325
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    AwaitYourReply wrote: »
    There is a certain amount of truth in relation to the likely viewing pattern of a channel like Oireachtas TV versus a general entertainment channel like RTÉ One television.

    Forgive me if this comes across as a ridiculous question but how come Oireachtas TV would approach Sky Digital UK and pay it €250,000 in relation to the channel going on the Astra satellite as it was encrypted on digital satellite last time I did a scan a few months ago? I cannot imagine any programming rights / geo restriction issues with a channel of this nature being scanned and picked-up outside of these shores given the type of content involved here.

    The same issue would apply to a channel like RTÉ News Now if and when it ever goes on to digital satellite tv. These channels should be able to go free-to-air at this stage surely like BBC Parliament and the BBC News channel ?

    There are no rights restrictions preventing the channel from being FTA. The transponders are bought up by the big players at €4m a pop and sub leased last time I checked.

    I find it incomprehensible that more likely that they couldn't lease one without going down the Sky route, but not as incomprehensible that they thought they were so important as demand a spot on 28.2E with taxpayers money in the first place, whilst going against the agreed broadcast method of their own presence as a broadcast station for Ireland as laid down in the Broadcasting Act 2009.

    Wasting money on Sky was about buying an epg position. Vanity.

    Irish stations are governed and licensed by Irish laws. They must commit to the Saorview platform to continue being licensed. What happens on broadcast delivery platforms outside the one established for free to air use is a matter between private individuals and foreign subscription companies. If they don't have X channel then that is a complaint that individual takes up with the subscription company. There is no obligation on Sky or UPC to carry this content in the first place. They can pick and choose what they carry. They would not have requested Oireachtas TV as it would have been a waste of TP space for the audience figures it would have attracted, and the Houses knew this and so committed the most idiotic and self serving act of vanity in paying Sky to carry them.


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    #326
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    STB. wrote: »

    Irish stations are governed and licensed by Irish laws. They must commit to the Saorview platform to continue being licensed.

    That is not and never has been a condition of being licenced in this jurisdiction, as Setanta Ireland will tell you.


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    #327
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    icdg wrote: »
    That is not and never has been a condition of being licenced in this jurisdiction, as Setanta Ireland will tell you.

    IT IS most certainly a condition for stations licensed under the Broadcasting Act 2009 and most certainly those that have the character of a public service as TV3, UTVi and the 2 PSBs will tell you.

    The Houses of the Oireachtas Channel is licensed under section 125 of the Broadcasting Act as a public and free-to-air service to be made available to the the whole community on the island of Ireland.

    The same is true of the licences held by ALL the other Irish broadcasters (except Setanta). If we could keep to the point please.


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    #328
    FRIENDO
    Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭FRIENDO


    It's not on Saorsat and according to the press release it only available to the 98%.
    Another kick in the Ass for Saorsat


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    #329
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    FRIENDO wrote: »
    It's not on Saorsat and according to the press release it only available to the 98%.
    Another kick in the Ass for Saorsat

    They could get over that by going on Astra possibly for the same amount they are paying sky for an encrypted service, or they could have asked sky to provide it in the clear.


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    #330
    FRIENDO
    Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭FRIENDO


    Elmo wrote:
    They could get over that by going on Astra possibly for the same amount they are paying sky for an encrypted service, or they could have asked sky to provide it in the clear.


    Or possibly Freesat with RTE news now too.


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    #331
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Nothing to stop RTE putting OTV on Saorsat. It is their platform and is a commercial enterprise, and I would think there would be no extra cost for them, also OTV is a non commercial (no advertising) and no threat to RTE.

    It could earn them goody points with the Dail if they did.


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