General Rugby Discussion

Adbrowne

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2016/0803/806683-lambie-still-sidelined-since-stander-tackle/

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Adbrowne wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2016/0803/806683-lambie-still-sidelined-since-stander-tackle/

I see Finn Russell is still recovering from the knock he got in the Pro12 SF too. Glasgow expect him to miss the first few weeks of the season, at least.

former total

Wasps have signed Willie le Roux.

Christ.

Edit: will only join once Japanese season ends (January/February I think?)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36975618

Quin_Dub

former total wrote: »

Wasps have signed Willie le Roux.

Christ.

Edit: will only join once Japanese season ends (January/February I think?)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36975618

Wasps pay-roll must be off the charts with the number of signings they've made..

They have a seriously strong squad at this point , if Dai Young can get them all gelled they will be very hard to beat (by anyone)

12 11 Not-Engand-Eligible players at Wasps now of 42 senior players

Player Position International Eligibility
Tom Cruse Hooker  England
Ashley Johnson Hooker  South Africa
Tommy Taylor Hooker  England
Tom Woolstencroft Hooker  England
Tom Bristow Prop  England
Alex Lundberg Prop  England
Jake Cooper-Woolley Prop  England
Simon McIntyre Prop  England
Marty Moore Prop  Ireland
Matt Mullan (c) Prop  England
Phil Swainston Prop  England
James Cannon Lock  England
Marcus Garratt Lock  England
James Gaskell Lock  England
Joe Launchbury Lock  England
Kearnan Myall Lock  England
Will Rowlands Lock  England
Matt Symons Lock  England
James Haskell (c) Flanker  England
Sam Jones Flanker  England
Thomas Young Flanker  Wales
Alex Rieder Flanker  England
Nathan Hughes Number 8  FijiEngland
Guy Thompson Number 8  England
Craig Hampson Scrum-half  England
Dan Robson Scrum-half  England
Joe Simpson Scrum-half  England
Danny Cipriani Fly-half  England
Jimmy Gopperth Fly-half  New Zealand
Kurtley Beale Centre  Australia
Guy Armitage Centre  England
Elliot Daly Centre  England
Nick De Luca Centre  Scotland
Kyle Eastmond Centre  England
Alapati Leiua Centre  Samoa
Brendan Macken Centre  Ireland
Josh Bassett Wing  England
Frank Halai Wing  New Zealand
Sailosi Tagicakibau Wing  Samoa
Christian Wade Wing  England
Rob Miller Fullback  England
Willie le Roux Fullback  South Africa


I would say that they are using their marquee signings brilliantly so far. There's not much in the way of 'filler' being signed from abroad.

former total

Deleted User wrote: »

12 Not-Engand-Eligible players at Wasps now of 42 senior players

And Nathan Hughes is now qualified, has just been named in the England training squad...

Adbrowne

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Wasps pay-roll must be off the charts with the number of signings they've made..

They have a seriously strong squad at this point , if Dai Young can get them all gelled they will be very hard to beat (by anyone)

that bond issue will all be spent before long

thomond2006

Wasps potential backline is Toulon-esque!

The Lost Sheep

Jason Harris-Wright signed with London Irish
http://www.london-irish.com/news/london-irish-augments-squad-as-start-of-season-draws-near/bp975/

FACECUTTR

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Jason Harris-Wright signed with London Irish
http://www.london-irish.com/news/london-irish-augments-squad-as-start-of-season-draws-near/bp975/

Great news. Glad he got a club that should be back up next year.

swiwi_

Deleted User wrote: »

I would say that they are using their marquee signings brilliantly so far. There's not much in the way of 'filler' being signed from abroad.

It's hard not to think that Irish teams winning the European cup will become like England winning the football world cup, in, remind me again, 1966 IIRC.

Money must be the driving factor in SANZAR players with no real attachment to any one particular European country choosing their clubs, and in battle of financial clout, there will only be 2 winners (Aviva + Top 14).

The Pro 12 has minimal appeal outside the participating countries, even less so that there are few SANZAR stars participating, and of course the irish internationals are often absent.

IMHO, the first thing the IRFU should do is support a global season so that Irish internationals play a full part in the Pro 12 etc (increasing the appeal), but pigs will fly before the 6N is moved from February I would think.

I haven't even heard of the new Munster/Stormers lock, Jamison Gibson-Park is a fringe Super XV player etc, whereas Wasps can pull out Beale & Le Roux who are household rugby names. Ulster bucked the trend...but at a price.

Will be interesting to see what Bundee does: follow his childhood dream of playing for Ireland and re-sign with Connacht...or declare for Samoa and sign on with the Aviva/Top 14. I highly doubt he returns to NZ in any case.

CatFromHue

The only thing to say in our favour is that the Irish teams have mostly signed unknown or fringe players from the SH.

For Leinster bar Elsom, Van der Linde, ZK, and maybe Chris Whitaker it's usually been mostly unknowns we've signed while the big names have gone to England or France. This has been the same with Munster mostly. Ulster have probably signed the most big names out of all the provinces and they still can't beat Leinster in Dublin.

Both Leinster and Munster have slide abit compared to previous years but that's mostly due to the Irish players so that's what the IRFU need to focus on.

As long as the Irish teams are competitive I think our guys will still mostly want to play for them.

swiwi_

CatFromHue wrote: »

The only thing to say in our favour is that the Irish teams have mostly signed unknown or fringe players from the SH.

For Leinster bar Elsom, Van der Linde, ZK, and maybe Chris Whitaker it's usually been mostly unknowns we've signed while the big names have gone to England or France. This has been the same with Munster mostly. Ulster have probably signed the most big names out of all the provinces and they still can't beat Leinster in Dublin.

Both Leinster and Munster have slide abit compared to previous years but that's mostly due to the Irish players so that's what the IRFU need to focus on.

As long as the Irish teams are competitive I think our guys will still mostly want to play for them.

Unless the pay difference becomes ridiculous, I think the majority of Irish players will play their rugby in Ireland, especially if it remains mostly essential (the odd exception) to play international rugby for Ireland.

Can Irish provinces win European rugby purely with Irish players? I doubt it. Probably better to target a certain type of SANZAR player, I'm thinking Aki for example, rather than journeymen (add little) or bona fide stars (too expensive).

I will be actually interested to see how Gibson-Park goes, he gets virtually no playing time with the Canes, so it's hard to judge his talent. A decent haircut from a Dublin barber would be a promising start.

CatFromHue

I dunno if they'll win but we should have 2 teams in the QF's next season and could possibly have 3!

Once you're in the knock outs anything can happen.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

The only thing to say in our favour is that the Irish teams have mostly signed unknown or fringe players from the SH.

For Leinster bar Elsom, Van der Linde, ZK, and maybe Chris Whitaker it's usually been mostly unknowns we've signed while the big names have gone to England or France. This has been the same with Munster mostly. Ulster have probably signed the most big names out of all the provinces and they still can't beat Leinster in Dublin.

Both Leinster and Munster have slide abit compared to previous years but that's mostly due to the Irish players so that's what the IRFU need to focus on.

As long as the Irish teams are competitive I think our guys will still mostly want to play for them.

I wouldn't call Thorn, Isa, Cullen, Saili, Howlet, Tipoki, Mafi, Williams unknowns.

CatFromHue

Thorn doesn't count as he only was here for 8 games and we were lucky he was out of season for his Japanese club.

No one knew who Nacewa was over here before he came.

Tipoki if he wasn't in the damaged goods basket he was very close to it before he signed for Munster and in the 7 Super rugby seasons before he moved had only played 38 games with 2 different clubs.

Mafi was taken from the NPC and he has no Super rugby caps.

Williams was never an All Black, neither were Tipoki or Mafi.

Cullen and Howlett I forgot about them but they'd also reached the end of their careers in NZ when they moved up.

Saili would have been an unknown up North before he moved too.

When you think about it they're the biggest names, along with JdV, who've signed for our 2 biggest teams over a 13 year period. Compare that to the big teams in France and England and I think they'll have signed far more "names" than we have.

Edit: Howlett made me think. He was the only member of the 07 NZ RWC squad to move to Ireland. Luke McAlistair, Carl Hayman, Chris Jack, Aaron Mauger, and Nick Evans all moved to England. Chris Masoe and Byron Kelleher moved to France.

Yeah_Right

Being unknown "up here" doesn't mean they weren't big names.

Tipoki would have had more Super rugby caps if he didn't get suspended so often. NZ Maoris, Ranfurly Shield winning captain, borderline AB.

Mafi was a SR starter and NZ 7s rep.

Isa was a big name and the NZRU were trying to get him an exemption from the IRB so he could play for the ABs.

Williams was big time. NZ As, SR regular and people felt if he developed and reached his potential he could have been an AB.

Saili was rated a lot higher in NZ than Aki.

Sure there haven't been as many AB "greats" or regular starters collecting their pension in Ireland as England or France but don't kid yourself into thinking the players who came here were nobodies. They were some big name players.

wp_rathead

Exeter Chiefs urged to change 'offensive' name by Native American expert

I personally don't think they need a "name change"- maybe a new logo or something but there's nothing actually wrong with the name "Exeter Chiefs" on its own merits.
To compare them to Washington Redskins is an unfair comparison- as "Redskins" is a derogatory name for a Native American.

irishbucsfan

The Southern Kings should also change their name, and stop playing feudal British

CatFromHue

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Being unknown "up here" doesn't mean they weren't big names.

Tipoki would have had more Super rugby caps if he didn't get suspended so often. NZ Maoris, Ranfurly Shield winning captain, borderline AB.

Mafi was a SR starter and NZ 7s rep.

Isa was a big name and the NZRU were trying to get him an exemption from the IRB so he could play for the ABs.

Williams was big time. NZ As, SR regular and people felt if he developed and reached his potential he could have been an AB.

Saili was rated a lot higher in NZ than Aki.

Sure there haven't been as many AB "greats" or regular starters collecting their pension in Ireland as England or France but don't kid yourself into thinking the players who came here were nobodies. They were some big name players.

I'm not saying they're nobodies but the vast majority of guys Irish teams sign tend to not be from the highest level down there. We tend to know the guys in and around the AB level and they're the guys we know and I class as names.

Five guys from the 2015 RWC winning Kiwi team left and went directly to France or England. In Irish history though we've had Cullen and Howlett who've moved directly from the AB's to an Irish team, well I can't think of anyone else. Edit: John Afoa too.

So that's my point. Irish teams have never really recruited from the highest level in the SH.

I'm not sure if Mafi was ever capped at SR level, all I can see is that he was brought into the Hurricanes squad after an injury to Smith but I don't think he got any game time.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The Southern Kings should also change their name, and stop playing feudal British

Andrew "Beef" Johnston (Golfer for those that don't follow the sport) was lobbied by some Vegan group during the week to change his name to Andrew "Tofu" Johnston...I kid you not...

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

wp_rathead wrote: »

Exeter Chiefs urged to change 'offensive' name by Native American expert

I personally don't think they need a "name change"- maybe a new logo or something but there's nothing actually wrong with the name "Exeter Chiefs" on its own merits.
To compare them to Washington Redskins is an unfair comparison- as "Redskins" is a derogatory name for a Native American.

In the US there's also the Cleveland Indians and the Atlanta Braves and they don't get as much stick as the Redskins. Cleveland have debated on and off through the years about getting rid of their "Chief Wahoo" logo but I'm fairly sure they still have it.

Yeah_Right

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

In the US there's also the Cleveland Indians and the Atlanta Braves and they don't get as much stick as the Redskins. Cleveland have debated on and off through the years about getting rid of their "Chief Wahoo" logo but I'm fairly sure they still have it.

There's also the KC Chiefs and the Chicago Blackhawks. Never heard of them getting any grief about their names or mascots. The Redskins is a most offensive name. Indians would be the next but they do appear to be phasing out the Chief Wahoo logo in favour of a C.

I don't see what's offensive about the names Braves or Chiefs as long as the logo isn't cartoonish or crass. The Chiefs in Super Rugby and the Warriors in the NRL consulted with Maori elders (kaumatua) to make sure their logos were correct. I wonder if the Exeter Chiefs just got some PR agency to create theirs without doing cultural research.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Yeah_Right wrote: »

There's also the KC Chiefs and the Chicago Blackhawks. Never heard of them getting any grief about their names or mascots. The Redskins is a most offensive name. Indians would be the next but they do appear to be phasing out the Chief Wahoo logo in favour of a C.

I don't see what's offensive about the names Braves or Chiefs as long as the logo isn't cartoonish or crass. The Chiefs in Super Rugby and the Warriors in the NRL consulted with Maori elders (kaumatua) to make sure their logos were correct. I wonder if the Exeter Chiefs just got some PR agency to create theirs without doing cultural research.

I think it's about cultural appropriation in a lot of cases. I can see why it might annoy some people, particularly in America. These white folk are the decedents of the people who pretty much wiped out your culture and now they want to use your culture to make money or be fashionable etc. etc. The term "Redskins" is obviously offensive in itself, the other teams are less so.

I looked up the Exeter Chiefs there and it said they changed their name in the 90's to Exeter Chiefs having previously been referred to as The Chiefs in the 30's. Not sure why they were called that though. The term "chief" is not specific to native American culture, so it's possible there was another reason for it. The current logo is what definitely ties them to the Native American idea. They could have a re-brand without having to actually change their name. If they've only been called Exeter Chiefs since the 90's it's not like generations of supporters are tied to all that goes with it.

English Lurker

The origin of the Chiefs nickname has never really been nailed down but I've heard both that its tradition for clubs to call their Firsts the Chiefs down there, and due to naval influence down in Devon. Its certainly not a long term association with Native Americans.

CatFromHue

Someone just spelt chef wrong and didn't want to own up, that's why they're called the chiefs

WinnyThePoo

CatFromHue wrote: »

No one knew who Nacewa was over here before he came.

Wasn't Nacewa ripping it up for the blues?

The Lost Sheep

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Wasn't Nacewa ripping it up for the blues?

But had many over here heard of him. No...

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But had many over here heard of him. No...

In fairness not many over here would know who charlie ngatai or seta tamanivalu are either....

Doesn't mean they aren't top level super rugby players.

CatFromHue

they're not top level international players though.