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NQTs - are you having any luck?
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teacherhead wrote: »A young teacher came to us for an 8 hour sick leave job at Christmas. I rang her today to tell her we had 22 for her in Sept if she wanted it. Needless to say she was delighted. Two people turned down the small hours when I rang.
Moral of the story a little bit of work is better than no work at all.... And.... If youre not prepared to take less attractive jobs you may never get anything
Moral of the story is that if this is the widespread attitude of management then god help NQTs.
Would you work for 8 part time after Christmas as an NQT, probably spread over 5 days with no pay at the holidays etc on some random hope of getting something more in that school?
You're having a laugh. Peter said it all about your attitude.0 -
happywithlife wrote: »Ok while I wouldn't take peters curt tone I do agree with him in a way
And why not take Peters tone? Its the lack of Peters tone that have teachers where they are."Aggree with him in a way"
In every way.0 -
Apparently beggars can be choosers. The sense of entitlement among some of you has to be seen to be believed.0
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Apparently beggars can be choosers. The sense of entitlement among some of you has to be seen to be believed.
I have actually taken 4.5 hrs in a local school for a years contract so am certainly not partaking of the beggars can be choosers mentality but I stand firm - a job HAS to be feasible at the end of the day. 8 hrs spread out over 5days, is not feasible to someone trying to raise a family on their meagre wage. I'm obviously looking at it from my perspective. At times, it wouldn't pay me to go to work and my bank manager nice as she is, is unwilling to turn the other cheek when it comes to my cash flow. The "possibility of more hrs next yr" doesn't mean beans to her.
Why in gods name are there so many bits of contracts being handed out? Management HAS a part to answer for re the casualisation of part time teachers0 -
I think context must be viewed when you see some of these jobs. An example is that someone with a strange combination goes on mat leave. Timetables must be made separately as its not a complete year so its not always possible to give to other part timers coupled with not being able to get 1 person to do the complete job. I honestly don't see what anyone would want staff on such low hours but there are circumstances where schools are stuck in short term.
There are unfortunately examples out there of schools that have poor practice regarding low hours CIDs however the vast majority of schools around me do not employ this practice.0 -
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Apparently beggars can be choosers. The sense of entitlement among some of you has to be seen to be believed.
A disgusting comments and one that will enrage a lot of part time teachers.
Entitlement? Beggars? For not wanting to accept crappy 3 to 8 hour part time contracts?
You are the one one that is coming across with the "sense of entitlement". And again, to imply that your colleagues who wont accept such contracts are "beggars" is disgraceful.0 -
Troll, a disgusting comments and one that will enrage a lot of part time teachers.
Entitlement? Beggars? For not wanting to accept crappy 3 to 8 hour part time contracts?
You are the one one that is coming across with the "sense of entitlement". And again, to imply that your colleagues who wont accept such contracts are "beggars" is disgraceful.
Completely agree.... an absolute disgrace what part-timers have to put up with. Ive been teaching for years and I am fed up being broke, being on and off the dole, and being expected to be 'grateful' for 'anything'. The fact is for a couple of years not many teachers mind doing their time. But 5 /6 /7 years later?? not fair and not acceptable.0 -
An enormous number of problems relating to part-time teachers would be obliterated if there were a centralised employment system similar to that of An Garda Síochána, where all state-paid members of the profession are trained by a state college to fill a demand. Does anybody see a problem with such a system?
The state has deliberately oversupplied the market with teachers, in part at least to help fund education departments of universities with student fees. Such a centralised system would also prevent a wide array of discrimination at school level under the guise of "school ethos" in the employment of (state-paid) teachers. On pc grounds it's hard to see how the current system has lasted. Ideologically it is hard to defend.
For me, however, the current system of hundreds (thousands?) of teachers doing part-time hours and expected to live on that is outrageous. I use that word advisedly. We are speaking about members of our community who are willing to work and who would like to contribute to their communities and/or future generations. I know this can apply to all of society, but the difference is that teachers' unions and the government could dramatically change the welfare of thousands of teachers by changing the way they are trained and recruited. This major problem of the teaching profession can be solved relatively easily. Primary responsibility for solving this rests with the Department of Education.
The current recruitment system either
a) allows people into the profession without the necessary teaching subject qualifications, a qualification which should be central to entry, or
b) promotes a culture of abuse by principals where the carrot of full hours is held out as a reward for years of extra work on the part of the teacher. Part-time hours for this reason suits many principals.
In both cases, the Department of Education which pays salaries has the power to change the employment system and ensure conformity to a new system by all schools who employ state-financed teachers.
This part-timism, if that's a word, of the teaching profession has never been a priority for the unions. It has certainly been part of their lipservice. A sustained unified public campaign by both unions to highlight the current recruitment system has never happened in my memory. I feel it would garner the critical public support to compel the current government to change it. It is demoralising staff rooms and the constant job insecurity is doing nothing to bring out the best in teachers. In far too many cases we have newer teachers taking dog's abuse off students and being afraid to bring it up with management for fear that it would jeopardise their employment prospects. This mentality among newer teachers has become routine in my school, and I suspect it is commonplace in most/all schools. For the continuation of this system, therefore, I do place a large amount of blame on the shoulders of our teachers' unions (one of which I am a member).
Lastly, and while this may be unpopular there are far too many teachers who only have themselves to blame for their current predicament - I'm solely referring to people who enter teaching with only one serious subject (CSPE, for instance, is not one of these) and wonder why they are finding it difficult to get a job. They are the authors of their own misfortune and under a centralised system as I would envisage it they wouldn't be allowed in. Yes, under the current recruitment system you can get a taxpayer-funded teaching job with your single subject if a relative or good friend is the school principal. In the overwhelming number of other schools, however, you will be in serious trouble. You need to be qualified in at least two serious subjects. If you only have one, the responsibility is on you and nobody else to go back to college and get the required credits to be qualified in a second subject. No excuses. Where there's a will to do it, there's a way to do it.0 -
MOD Warning.. Temperatures are hot indeed.. Please stick to debating the points rather than the person. I'm out for a few hours so I expect yis all to behave until I get back. (That always works!)
I'm just going to collect me banhammer.0 -
It seems your opinion only counts here if you are bashing one side or the other.
i stick to my point, in a market where there is so much over supply cannot expect to get interviews without the experience. (this is not my fault, you have to shortlist when 60+ people apply for a job)
the 8 hours was part of a sick leave, i didn't make the teacher sick, i looked for a replacement and struggled to get one. As it happened the sick leave became a retirement and the hours came up between one thing and another.
my point was simple and not intended to offend anyone, you have to start at some point, obviously distance and number of days is important and people make choices. But.... Small short term contracts can sometimes grow into better jobs they are a starting point, I'm glad in not looking for work at the minute.
I'm tired of constantly having to defend my opinions because i am in Management , i am a teacher first and foremost. I do my best for the kids in my school every day and enjoy the support of my colleagues and parents.
teaching is not what it was when i started, i miss the old days when things were more relaxed but i also think of some of the things that weren't right and am glad that there have been some changes.
anyway, i hope you all have a good summer. I think it would do some of us a lot of good to relax and enjoy the summer and work on changing what you can rather than dismissing everyone else as you decry the system.
that's me out of here.0 -
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i stick to my point, in a market where there is so much over supply cannot expect to get interviews without the experience.
A market? What market? Ah the language of the markets..........the 8 hours was part of a sick leave, i didn't make the teacher sick, i looked for a replacement and struggled to get one. As it happened the sick leave became a retirement and the hours came up between one thing and another.
No problem looking for someone to cover those hours at all, the problem is your implicit judgement of those, who for what ever reason, choose not to take the position.0 -
I think its very unfair on part timers at the moment but I guess I was always told that whatever hours were offered to take them. Before I was in this position, I subbed for 5 years, one year I was in 3 different schools alone covering different contracts because of people in and out. I was promised hours in a school by a principal who said they were there if I wanted them because I had been with them so long and he gave them to someone else that August, it was such a bitter pill to take and he rang me the following week to go back in as a sub. I had to bite the bullet and go in obviously but it was hurtful and hard to see someone else in the job, who left the school a year later- this school is 5 minutes from my home and now I'm travelling an hour for 15 hours which is barely getting me covered. But a CID is gold these days and you have to do what you have to do.
I do see your point teacherhead but I have friends that are subbing on their 8th year now and still no sign of hours no matter what they do. One girl I know completely changed a schools attitude to extra curricular with travellers, a school where there were serious issues and was told there were no hours for her the following year but to leave all the paperwork and her plans and ideas for the school to continue with them- no thanks, nothing, for all the work she had done.
If a school offered me 8 hours when I was looking I would probably would have taken them as well to get my foot in the door of a school and at least have my name there and the teacher in your school is incredibly lucky. I was told I would always have work because of having Irish but I found as the years went on it wasnt the case and I know for a fact I was the only sub with Irish on a particular panel for those 5 years and lots of fixed term hours came up and I was never considered for them and twice I was even turned down for an interview and deemed unsuitable for the job, but those same schools would be on the phone to me a week later to go in.
And its not for the lack of experience or education. I've put 35k+ into my education with a degree, a research masters, a PDE, a diploma in adolescent counselling, further CPD courses and a PhD in Geography to be told by a principal that it would be very intimidating for the other Geography teachers if I was teaching geography in that school. I always thought that the more educated you were the more valuable you were and even at that, when I was desperate, I offered to teach in schools voluntarily just to be seen to be active and have a full CV. My education to be a teacher has me broke but I am a glutton for punishment and have put so much in that I can't back out now. I am so passionate about my subjects and teaching that I would do a serious misjustice to myself, not to be in the job.
I think part timers need a system where after a certain length of service they should be entitled to fixed term hour that may come up in a school particularly on the ETB panels. In the case of my friend, 8+ years (with Maths and Irish) is too long to be waiting on something that might never happen and this is where things need to be changed. She has been thrown around the place and promised lots also but she is again unemployed and applying for whatever she can within her catchment.0 -
Isn't it amazing how the DES came up with a very detailed procedure for Principals & DPs to follow regarding the setting out and arrangement of S&S in schools as per their recent circular. . . All sort of spreadsheets and graphics. The teachers of course have to nominate ALL of their classes in order of preference for the management then to sort through (the useless unions have kept quiet on that one)
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0042_2014.pdf
Where's the glossy procedures for assisting NQTs with regard to the "expert committee" that was due to be setup under the Haddington Road "Agreement"?0 -
It seems that I have been taken up wrong to some extent, with some of you insisting on taking insult to a reasonable observation.
'Beggars can't be choosers' is a well known and well used phrase which does not imply that anyone actually is an actual beggar. I wouldn't have thought I'd have to explain that but some people will take insult at anything. That being said, yes, sometimes you do have to accept a short contract to get your foot in the door and show how valuable you are. If you're not kept on and especially if you're replaced, maybe you're not as valuable as you think you are.A disgusting comments and one that will enrage a lot of part time teachers.
Entitlement? Beggars? For not wanting to accept crappy 3 to 8 hour part time contracts?
You are the one one that is coming across with the "sense of entitlement". And again, to imply that your colleagues who wont accept such contracts are "beggars" is disgraceful.
We had a guy covering a maternity leave in the last few years and he got his foot in the door. Shortly after the maternity leave ended, some hours opened up in one of his subjects but he'd already shown himself not to be good enough so he didn't get them. I imagine he might well feel aggrieved over that but the fact of the matter is people were talking in the staff room about his inability to control a class and the students' lack of respect for him. He got the same support from management as everyone else (and our management is supportive) but he didn't do the job. He was an exception to the general trend in our place. Most people who come in on small contracts get them increased or get offered hours the year following their maternity hours if they're there. He didn't because he wasn't up to the job.
My point is, like teacherhead said, if you're good at your job, you can't turn your nose up at a small contract and insist that you're entitled to more. Take the job, show you're too valuable to let go and most of the time, you'll get more if the hours are there. If you don't, maybe you're not as valuable as you think. It's a competitive job market for teachers these days. Just being qualified and adequate night not get you as far as you'd like.0 -
Lastly, and while this may be unpopular there are far too many teachers who only have themselves to blame for their current predicament - I'm solely referring to people who enter teaching with only one serious subject (CSPE, for instance, is not one of these) and wonder why they are finding it difficult to get a job. They are the authors of their own misfortune and under a centralised system as I would envisage it they wouldn't be allowed in. Yes, under the current recruitment system you can get a taxpayer-funded teaching job with your single subject if a relative or good friend is the school principal. In the overwhelming number of other schools, however, you will be in serious trouble. You need to be qualified in at least two serious subjects. If you only have one, the responsibility is on you and nobody else to go back to college and get the required credits to be qualified in a second subject. No excuses. Where there's a will to do it, there's a way to do it.
Unfortunately this is something that I have highlighted here before. Its near on impossible to fill someones timetable with one subject. Even if your English or maths or irish, you need something to fill a few gaps and at most, you can only have one of these type of teachers in the school. 2 good TC registered subjects are important.
You might see a job advertised as "English" or "French" but most of the time, the 2nd subject will be looked at too.0 -
'Beggars can't be choosers' is a well known and well used phrase which does not imply that anyone actually is an actual beggar. I wouldn't have thought I'd have to explain that but some people will take insult at anything.
No one is seriously saying you literally meant "beggars" but the implied slight is what I think most who are critical of the comment maybe referring too.That being said, yes, sometimes you do have to accept a short contract to get your foot in the door and show how valuable you are.
Which is fine and I have no problem with anyone accepting hours on that basis. I do have a problem with management being critical of those who don't.If you're not kept on and especially if you're replaced, maybe you're not as valuable as you think you are.
Yes but what about those who take short hours on the hope of getting more only to see other being employed after them also on small hours often doing similar subjects to them? This happens and its happening more and more.We had a guy covering a maternity leave in the last few years and he got his foot in the door. Shortly after the maternity leave ended, some hours opened up in one of his subjects but he'd already shown himself not to be good enough so he didn't get them. I imagine he might well feel aggrieved over that but the fact of the matter is people were talking in the staff room about his inability to control a class and the students' lack of respect for him.
No one is seriously suggesting that if you cant do your job you should be kept on or given more hours.My point is, like teacherhead said, if you're good at your job, you can't turn your nose up at a small contract and insist that you're entitled to more.
Its not that you would turn up your nose to anything, Its a simple financial decision, as others have said. I'm sure teachers are very reluctant to turn down any kind of work but sometimes it may just not be financially viable.Take the job, show you're too valuable to let go and most of the time, you'll get more if the hours are there.
Again its not just as simple as that if you will loose money and have to pay for child care etc.0 -
The problem with the profession as I see it is the 2 subject necessity.
This has given rise to wierd timetable combinations and thus... minor hours.
Imagine a world where you go to college, specialise in 1 SUBJECT and teach it. Your department is a proper subject department without people popping in and out every year.
Maybe what makes teachers in Ireland so dynamic and multi talented/cross curricular is the 2 subject rule.
But the upshot is the mess we have today.0 -
The problem with the profession as I see it is the 2 subject necessity.
This has given rise to wierd timetable combinations and thus... minor hours.
Imagine a world where you go to college, specialise in 1 SUBJECT and teach it. Your department is a proper subject department without people popping in and out every year.
Maybe what makes teachers in Ireland so dynamic and multi talented/cross curricular is the 2 subject rule.
But the upshot is the mess we have today.
This is how it works in public school here in Madrid - teachers will have one core subject. Teachers are always surprised when I tell them I am qualified to teach two subjects and that it is the norm in Ireland. Generally here you either have a full time contract or you don't.0 -
This is how it works in public school here in Madrid - teachers will have one core subject. Teachers are always surprised when I tell them I am qualified to teach two subjects and that it is the norm in Ireland. Generally here you either have a full time contract or you don't.
That sounds way too straightforward to work in Ireland unfortunately.0 -
I don't buy the weird subject combinations thing as being a major problem and the reason there are small hours. I know that weird subject combinations can exist and when those teachers retire/go on sick leave/ maternity leave it can mean hiring 2 teachers in their place, but it's not the majority of teachers in schools.
A sample of the teacher subject combinations in my school:
English & history
Irish and Maths
Irish and geography
Maths and foreign language
PE and geography
Biology & Chemistry
Biology and Ag Science
Woodwork and Tech Graph
Home Economics and Biology
Home Economics and Religion
Business and Accounting
Art
Music and Maths
They are all fairly run of the mill combinations. The only area we had difficulty getting a sub for in the last few years was physics, and the combination was physics and maths, which is not an odd combination in itself, we just couldn't get a physics sub at the time.
I started teaching 13 years ago. Everyone that was in my class that wanted a job got a job. None of us had less than 18 hours in our jobs as NQTs. That's the way they were advertised. I didn't have to apply for anything less than 18 hours anywhere. There were only one or two teachers on less than 18 hours in the school I started in. Everyone else was between 18-22. Now when a full time teacher retires their hours are carved up. Nobody ever gets hired for more than 17:20. Teachers I work with are so used to it now, that 17:20 is nearly seen as the new full time. None of them even consider getting 22 most of the time, as it's pretty much unheard of. So much so that some of the teachers that are not working as long as me almost accept 17:20 as the best that will ever be offered and consider themselves lucky to have it. That is wrong.
I know my school is not unique based on the posts I read on here from teachers all over the country over the last number of years and from jobs I've seen advertised.
There has been a complete shift from advertising jobs as full hours (or close to full hours) to small part time hours jobs. Schools haven't changed, students are still attending, we still work off a pupil teacher ratio when allocations are given to schools. The way those hours are dished out has changed radically and management do have a hand in that.0 -
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The notion of Irish teachers teaching or being qualified to teach two subjects presumably comes from nothing more complicated than the fact that in the majority of cases Arts degrees are two-subject majors so by default many will have two subject, notwithstanding the relative value of the subjects.
Presumably if teachers in Spain, to take the example given, are qualified to teach just one subject then presumably that's because their Arts degree or equivalent are one subject jobs. Otherwise they logically should be able to teach two subjects. Whether a school would require them to do so in another matter altogether but the idea that the holder of a degree which has joint-majors could teach both should not be unusual. Or are joint-majors a peculiarly Irish phenomenon? Just had a look at Leeds University website (random choice) and a joint-major is certainly an option.
If the two-subject teacher has developed in Ireland to a greater extent than elsewhere it would be interesting to guess why. Is it a function of the permanent contract back the years which meant that teachers needed to be facilitated in schools irrepective of demand? Perhaps more flux/movement in say England leads to schools targetting teachers in a different way? Or are the subject offerings different? For example I went onto a website advertising teaching jobs in England and saw a few for a History teacher. I'd say no school in Ireland would have enough hours to advertise for a dedicated History teacher. I know one guy in my school who has History as a joint-major and has never taught a History class and he's in the school years. I have History to Master's degree level and teach just three period a week to a junior class and expect it never to be otherwise. It is remarkable to see such an option in England.
Other possible reasons - do Irish schools employ more teachers than in other countries leading to an apparently more disjointed timetable with teachers doing this and that? Or do other countries have 22-hour contracts to fill - if they have to teach less they might not need a second subject as much? It is hard to see how other countries can cover all their options with teachers doing just one subject.
I cannot help but get the feeling that if Ireland were to become a one-subject teacher system it would probably lead to less teaching jobs. Another of those be-careful-what-you-wish-for scenarios maybe. Indeed the thought smacks a little of another of Ruairí Quinn's bright ideas for "reform".0 -
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The two subjects may also go back to the introduction of 'free' second level education and the need to get lots of subjects available quickly.0 -
one subject teachers would be a very feasible option if schools were larger or a lot less options. Couple this with limited numbers in certain subjects and also fluctuating numbers in irish schools whereby redeployment means people mixing subjects to make up the shortfall.
Also a mix in subjects is nice to teach i.e. teaching irish all day is nice but mix it in with some other subject gives a bit of variety.0 -
The two subjects may also go back to the introduction of 'free' second level education and the need to get lots of subjects available quickly.
There has to be an historical explanation alright. I know there was talk on this site a few years ago (another ultimately unrealised rumour I think) that there would be a huge amunt of retirements coming up because of loads of teachers having been employed at some corresponding time in the past. So perhaps in the early 1970s there was a big influx which created the two-subject teacher. I wonder if it is really a peculiarly Irish phenomenon. We have a tendency in Ireland to head away see other systems in operation and assume that they are much better but maybe it is done elsewhere too. Anyway if someone is educated in two subjects to equal levels is there any logical reason why they should not teach both?0 -
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Peter Flynt wrote: »and also a lot to do with traditional state policy not to pay teachers properly or to give them security of tenure
where is this state policy Peter?0 -
Anyway... thanks for all comments, advice etc. That's all I was asking... had anyone heard anything to give us hope. He's had lots of "no thank you" letters and emails this week. But two interviews so that's something... at least he's in with a shot. Over and out!0
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Powerhouse wrote: »
I cannot help but get the feeling that if Ireland were to become a one-subject teacher system it would probably lead to less teaching jobs. Another of those be-careful-what-you-wish-for scenarios maybe. Indeed the thought smacks a little of another of Ruairí Quinn's bright ideas for "reform".
I'm not sure if it does. Around Easter time each year the number of groups in each year for the following September is calculated and the number of teachers needed i.e there will be 100 hours in Social Sciences therefore we require 5 teachers. There are a few filler in classes that gives the management a little flexibility if the maths doesn't work out. There is also the possibility of a teacher doing half hours in one school and the other half in a different school.
Teachers here can either have a fixed post in a certain school (though these are getting rarer), a fixed post but not to any specific school or an 'interino' who is given work depending on post availability. The system is centralised and teachers move around schools quite a bit. In fact I know one interino who had a different school for each year for the last 17 years!0 -
I had three interviews in the past four weeks. no job for September though!
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I dont know how this turned into an argument on one subject teachers but I'll add my two cents.
As the department want classes for different levels timetabled concurrently to allow movement from Higher Level to Ordinary Level, teachers are unlikely to teach the same subject to two classes within the same year group, limiting their hours. In small schools teachers of non sequential subjects can be teaching 1st and 2nd years in the same class. Although I know its much more common to see Higher Level and Ordinary Level students in the same class. Again fewer hours as class sizes rise. This is just the reality of timetabling and schools making the best use of the resources available to them.
If someone with one subject is teaching every year group including TY, which isn't very likely, you're still only looking at at most 17 hours a week if you're teaching a core subject.
For the record, I teach two subjects. One of them a core subject and in four years I have only taught my second subject for two weeks. I would seriously considering upskilling to get another core subject recognised by the teaching council.0
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