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Adam Booth on Andy Lee vs John Jackson fight in New York on Cotto-Martinez undercard

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    #32
    Johner
    Registered Users Posts: 21,625 ✭✭✭✭Johner


    I think Kirkland stops Lee after a few rounds of punishment.


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    #33
    willmunny1990
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭willmunny1990


    Good knockout from a painfully limited boxer.


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    #34
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,742 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    gaybeer wrote: »
    Kirkland is one of the fights I would look for for Andy. Lee has a decent chin and if you get past a few rounds with Kirkland you are in with a great chance. Andy can punch a bit and kirkland can be hurt. Bring it on! I would love to see Lee fight a bit more on the front foot, establish the jab more and be more assertive.

    Edge of your seat stuff. With Kirkland's less than stellar defense and Lee's less than stellar defense, and both with KO power, and Kirkland just out to kill, we could see a Hagler-Hearns II.


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    #35
    gaybeer
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gaybeer


    walshb wrote: »
    Edge of your seat stuff. With Kirkland's less than stellar defense and Lee's less than stellar defense, and both with KO power, and Kirkland just out to kill, we could see a Hagler-Hearns II.

    I actually thinks Lee showed a bit of improved defence on Saturday night, obviously apart from getting tagged in round 1. While still not perfect, he showed improved head movement and instincts when he was hurt. I think people on this forum have a habit of overrating big punchers, Kirkland, Matteyse et al. Kirkland has been hurt, dropped and knocked out by light punchers with less boxing than Andy. I wouldn't give him much of a chance against the rest of the top 10 but this is a pick em fight for me.


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    #36
    Deiseboy01
    Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭Deiseboy01


    gaybeer wrote: »
    Kirkland is one of the fights I would look for for Andy. Lee has a decent chin and if you get past a few rounds with Kirkland you are in with a great chance. Andy can punch a bit and kirkland can be hurt. Bring it on! I would love to see Lee fight a bit more on the front foot, establish the jab more and be more assertive.

    I think Kirkland would walk him down and destroy him. Sorry to be negative Andy is one of our own but he's just not good enough.

    Best option for him is to get a fight v Machlin. Make a few quid and then retire. He was decent on Sky as a co commentator. Could be the way to go.


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    #37
    Deiseboy01
    Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭Deiseboy01


    gaybeer wrote: »
    I actually thinks Lee showed a bit of improved defence on Saturday night, obviously apart from getting tagged in round 1. While still not perfect, he showed improved head movement and instincts when he was hurt. I think people on this forum have a habit of overrating big punchers, Kirkland, Matteyse et al. Kirkland has been hurt, dropped and knocked out by light punchers with less boxing than Andy. I wouldn't give him much of a chance against the rest of the top 10 but this is a pick em fight for me.

    Smith?


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    #38
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,742 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Lee has no chance at all apart from a one punch KO. Kirkland will walk through him and break him apart otherwise. BUT, Kirkland hasn't got a brilliant chin, and it may only take one clean shot from Lee. Would love love love him to KO Kirkland if they met.


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    #39
    gaybeer
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gaybeer


    walshb wrote: »
    Lee has no chance at all apart from a one punch KO. Kirkland will walk through him and break him apart otherwise. BUT, Kirkland hasn't got a brilliant chin, and it may only take one clean shot from Lee. Would love love love him to KO Kirkland if they met.

    I could see Lee winning a points decision against Kirkland. Would I bet on it? No. But for the sake of balance, Lee has a decent chin, moderate power and some boxing ability and Kirkland has struggled with fighters who are arguably inferior to Andy in all three areas. Remember for as limited as Lee is he kept Chavez off for 6 rounds and Chavez would be 30lbs heavier with arguably more boxing ability than Kirkland. I just think people overestimate fighters with power and the hole argument becomes well when he hits him he wins the fight.


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    #40
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,742 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    gaybeer wrote: »
    I could see Lee winning a points decision against Kirkland. Would I bet on it? No.

    Very surprosed, unless it was over 3 rds!;)


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    #41
    gaybeer
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gaybeer


    walshb wrote: »
    Very surprosed, unless it was over 3 rds!;)

    I actually think its less likely over 3 than 12!! I just think it gets a bit laughable when people suggest there is no way Kirkland could lose to anybody! He was getting circles boxed around him by Molina who is arguably inferior to Lee, who has only 6 KOs. He was destroyed by a feather punching Japanese fighter in a round. These would be the same people that would suggest that Amir Khan can't win a fight because of his chin but because someone can punch they are unbeatable!


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    #42
    gaybeer
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gaybeer


    For the record I would favor Kirkland in the fight but Lee has more than zero chance to win the fight. And of all the people in that top 10 he has a worse chance against most of the other fighters.


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    #43
    magma69
    Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭magma69


    gaybeer wrote: »
    I actually think its less likely over 3 than 12!! I just think it gets a bit laughable when people suggest there is no way Kirkland could lose to anybody! He was getting circles boxed around him by Molina who is arguably inferior to Lee, who has only 6 KOs. He was destroyed by a feather punching Japanese fighter in a round. These would be the same people that would suggest that Amir Khan can't win a fight because of his chin but because someone can punch they are unbeatable!

    How is Molina arguably better than Lee exactly? Molina is streets ahead of Lee. He should have been given decisions in both Chavez fights (by all accounts) beaten Cintron, Lara (imo) and made **** of Kirkland before a ****ty dq. Molina has shown he can hang at the top level. Lee has had one fight at top level in Chavez and ended up taking a hammering.

    There's no logical argument that Molina is inferior to Lee as far as I can see. Maybe you could enlighten me though.


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    #44
    gaybeer
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gaybeer


    magma69 wrote: »
    How is Molina arguably better than Lee exactly? Molina is streets ahead of Lee. He should have been given decisions in both Chavez fights (by all accounts) beaten Cintron, Lara (imo) and made **** of Kirkland before a ****ty dq. Molina has shown he can hang at the top level. Lee has had one fight at top level in Chavez and ended up taking a hammering.

    There's no logical argument that Molina is inferior to Lee as far as I can see. Maybe you could enlighten me though.

    I haven't seen the Chavez fights but they were in 2005 I think when Chavez was fighting at 154. Hardly the same fighter. I was more trying to highlight Kirklands limitations than particulary push Lee. I was merely attempting to bring some balance. But again with Molina, the guy has some decent results but is no world beater. Molina is an awkward fighter but someone with next to no power. I used him as an example of someone Kirkland didn't just walk down and destroy. Do I think Lee beats him the majority of the time, maybe not but could I see a scenario where he hits too hard and is too big for someone with an awkward still but no real power.


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    #45
    Spazdarn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    Andy has a good punch but I can't see him getting another lucky punch like the one he got against Jackson. Kirkland to plough through him in less than 4 I'd say.


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    #46
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    He should have been given decisions in both Chavez fights (by all accounts) beaten Cintron, Lara (imo) and made **** of Kirkland before a ****ty dq

    That was a disgraceful decision. I'm a huge fan of Lara and think he's one of the best out there today but it's clear he underestimated Molina massively and found himself out of depth pretty quickly.

    Your points about Molina are spot on. He has demonstrated an ability to mix at the top level, albeit his lack of power has contributed to judges getting away with robbing him blind. Lee on the other hand has been a perpetual disappointment as far as I'm concerned and is clearly a tier below Molina and most of the people he has fought recently.

    I think the fact Lee is one of our own (huge hype in Ireland around him) kind of obscures some people's opinions on him.


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    #47
    gaybeer
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gaybeer


    FTA69 wrote: »
    That was a disgraceful decision. I'm a huge fan of Lara and think he's one of the best out there today but it's clear he underestimated Molina massively and found himself out of depth pretty quickly.

    Your points about Molina are spot on. He has demonstrated an ability to mix at the top level, albeit his lack of power has contributed to judges getting away with robbing him blind. Lee on the other hand has been a perpetual disappointment as far as I'm concerned and is clearly a tier below Molina and most of the people he has fought recently.

    I think the fact Lee is one of our own (huge hype in Ireland around him) kind of obscures some people's opinions on him.

    I am very aware of just how limited Lee is. I am not saying he is even a top ten guy, I was just pointing out that Kirkland is very limited too and wouldn't be a terrible fight either. Kirkland has been much more exposed than Andy Lee.


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    #48
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    I agree with you in the sense they're both limited. I disagree with you on your point that Lee is of a higher calibre than Molina.


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    #49
    Spazdarn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    Andy would be well able for Macklin, there's money in that fight.
    I don't see Macklin being a step up from him


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    #50
    gaybeer
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gaybeer


    FTA69 wrote: »
    I agree with you in the sense they're both limited. I disagree with you on your point that Lee is of a higher calibre than Molina.

    I think you misunderstood me slightly, I probably phrased it badly. I was just trying to point out that there were limited fighters in that top ten. I don't think that he is a higher calibre but a similiar level and as such I think there are potential winable fights for him.


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    #51
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    ToiletFusion wrote: »
    Andy would be well able for Macklin, there's money in that fight.
    I don't see Macklin being a step up from him

    There is zero doubt in my mind Macklin would KO him handily. Lee has no gas tank whatsoever and has persistently shown an inability to maintain a workrate past the middling rounds. Macklin on the other hand, has shown an ability to mix it at a much higher level than Lee.


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    #52
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,742 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    FTA69 wrote: »
    There is zero doubt in my mind Macklin would KO him handily. Lee has no gas tank whatsoever and has persistently shown an inability to maintain a workrate past the middling rounds. Macklin on the other hand, has shown an ability to mix it at a much higher level than Lee.

    Any result in that fight would not surprise me. Both average to good MW fighters.


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    #53
    Spazdarn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    FTA69 wrote: »
    There is zero doubt in my mind Macklin would KO him handily. Lee has no gas tank whatsoever and has persistently shown an inability to maintain a workrate past the middling rounds. Macklin on the other hand, has shown an ability to mix it at a much higher level than Lee.

    Andy's got a decent beard, he did get knocked out by Chavez but he's fairly heavy handed and was a great deal heavier on the night than Andy was. Don't think Macklin is anywhere near as potent as Chavez. Andy's a classier boxer where Macklin is tougher, think it's a good match up.


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    #54
    gaybeer
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gaybeer


    I would be curious to know how you would price the Macklin vs Lee fight. I just don't think unless its an absolute top top fighter how people are so sure of a knock out win.


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    #55
    Johner
    Registered Users Posts: 21,625 ✭✭✭✭Johner


    Macklin 8/11
    Lee 6/5


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    #56
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,742 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Johner wrote: »
    Macklin 8/11
    Lee 6/5

    Macklin is 5/6 on Paddy Power and Lee is evens. Very close.


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    #57
    Tiger Mcilroy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Tiger Mcilroy


    ToiletFusion wrote: »
    Andy has a good punch but I can't see him getting another lucky punch like the one he got against Jackson. Kirkland to plough through him in less than 4 I'd say.

    Why was it a lucky punch? he aimed and connected..he was no doubt in bother leading up to that point but i dont get how it can be deemed lucky.

    It was a peach of a shot.


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    #58
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,742 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I guess one could call any KO shot lucky, but with Lee, it was more a desperation shot than a deliberate and controlled and knowing shot. It had the look of a lucky shot.


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    #59
    Tiger Mcilroy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Tiger Mcilroy


    walshb wrote: »
    Macklin is 5/6 on Paddy Power and Lee is evens. Very close.

    Looks about right...macklins toughness against Lee's skill, both men have their flaws but would be a good fight.

    Would favour macklin myself as he wouldnt give lee a minutes peace to allow the usual counters to come from range as would imagine his head would be on the chest of lee.


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    #60
    Tiger Mcilroy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Tiger Mcilroy


    walshb wrote: »
    I guess one could call any KO shot lucky, but with Lee, it was more a desperation shot than a deliberate and controlled and knowing shot. It had the look of a lucky shot.

    You could look at it that way alright.

    ive watched it a few times and its a cracker..just seems a bit harsh to say it was pure luck the intent was there and he had his senses about him.

    Probably more lucky his opponent wasnt a bigger puncher.


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    #61
    megadodge
    Registered Users Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭megadodge


    walshb wrote: »
    I guess one could call any KO shot lucky, but with Lee, it was more a desperation shot than a deliberate and controlled and knowing shot. It had the look of a lucky shot.

    Firstly I don't think any punch can be called lucky.
    If a boxer is in a ring and throws a punch aiming to hit his opponent - and it hits his opponent???? How the hell can that be lucky? It's exactly what he meant.

    If the two boxers were blindfolded and hadn't a clue where each other were and one of them connected perfectly - that would be a lucky punch in my book.

    In this situation I am stunned anybody could call that shot 'lucky'.
    I agree there are desperation punches, thrown out of pure frustration or panic, but those ones are usually wild and often with the head down (Danny Garcia threw a few of them against Khan). If you look at Lee's punch however, it is a short, sweet punch. It was about as deliberate and controlled a shot as any fighter could do in those circumstances.


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