Ancient Tara monument vandalised

Tail Docker

It wasn't vandalism at all -the Air Corps were moving Daisy the cow by helicopter when the straps slipped and she plummetted to the ground. Sadly, she landed bum-first onto the granite protrusion and was no more. The shocked aircrew tidied up as best as possible but as Murish O'Fanagoin, chief loady said "sure it was a pure mess. How could we be expected to clean all that up?"

dubhthach

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Laa robói Cond i Temraig íar ndíoth dona rígaib atracht matin moch for rígráith na Temrach ría turcbáil gréine & a trí drúith aróen ris .i. Maol, Bloc, Bluicne, et a trii filid .i. Ethain, Corb, Cesarn . Fodégh attraiged-siom cach día in líon sen do airdéxin arná gabdaois fir síde for Érind cen airiugud dó-som.

In dú dia n-dechaid som dogrés co tarlaic cloich and foa cosaib & saltrais fuirri. Rogés an cloch fo cosaib co clos fo Temraig uili & fo Bregaib .

Is andsin ro-íarfacht Conn dia drúdib cid arusgés an cloch, cia hainm & can do-raladh & no-ragadh & cid ro-taraill Temraigh. Is ed idbert an drái fri Conn ní slondad dó co cend cóicat laithi & a trí . In tan ro-cindiod an áiriom sin, ru-s-íarfacht Conn don draí afrídhisi .

Is ann adbert an drái: ‘Fál anmaim na cloche’ , ‘Inis Foail asa tardad , Temair Tíri Fáil i forromadh , Tír Taillten a n-airisfe co bráth. Et is í an tír sen bus óenach cluiche cén uhes flaithios a Temraig & lá dédinach an aonaigh in flaith nachus fáigfi , bid trú isan bliadain sin. Ro-gés fál foat cosaib-se anniú’, ol in drái, ‘& do-r-airngert. An lín gairm ro-gés an cloch, is ed líon ríg bías dot síol co bráth.’ ‘Ní ba mé nod-sloindfe det,’ ol in drái .
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One day Conn was in Tara, after overthrowing the kings. Early in the morning he went up onto the royal rampart of Tara, before sunrise, together with his three druids, Mael and Bloc and Bluicne, and his three filid [poets], Ethain and Corb and Cesarn. For that company used to arise every day to keep watch, lest the men of the sídhe [fairies; Tuatha de Dannan] capture Ireland without his noticing.

It is onto the rampart that he used always to go; and he chanced upon a stone beneath his feet and trod upon it. The stone cried out beneath his feet, so that it was heard throughout all Tara, and throughout Brega. Then Conn asked his druids why the stone had cried out, what was its name, whence it had come and whither it would go, and why it had come to Tara. The druid said to Conn that he would not name it to him until fifty-three days had passed. When that number was complete, Conn asked the druid again.

Then the druid said: "Fáil is the name of the stone. It is the island of Fáil from which it was brought. It is in Tara of the land of Fáil that it has been placed. It is in the land of Tailtiu that it will remain until the Day of Judgment. And it is in that land that there will be a festive assembly for as long as there is kingship in Tara; and the ruler who does not find it [or leave it?] on the last day of the assembly will be a doomed man in that year. Fáil cried out beneath your feet today," said the druid, "and prophesied. The number of cries which the stone uttered is the number of kings that there will be of your race until the Day of Judgment. It is not I who will name them to you," said the druid.

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whupdedo

dubhthach wrote: »

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Laa robói Cond i Temraig íar ndíoth dona rígaib atracht matin moch for rígráith na Temrach ría turcbáil gréine & a trí drúith aróen ris .i. Maol, Bloc, Bluicne, et a trii filid .i. Ethain, Corb, Cesarn . Fodégh attraiged-siom cach día in líon sen do airdéxin arná gabdaois fir síde for Érind cen airiugud dó-som.

In dú dia n-dechaid som dogrés co tarlaic cloich and foa cosaib & saltrais fuirri. Rogés an cloch fo cosaib co clos fo Temraig uili & fo Bregaib .

Is andsin ro-íarfacht Conn dia drúdib cid arusgés an cloch, cia hainm & can do-raladh & no-ragadh & cid ro-taraill Temraigh. Is ed idbert an drái fri Conn ní slondad dó co cend cóicat laithi & a trí . In tan ro-cindiod an áiriom sin, ru-s-íarfacht Conn don draí afrídhisi .

Is ann adbert an drái: ‘Fál anmaim na cloche’ , ‘Inis Foail asa tardad , Temair Tíri Fáil i forromadh , Tír Taillten a n-airisfe co bráth. Et is í an tír sen bus óenach cluiche cén uhes flaithios a Temraig & lá dédinach an aonaigh in flaith nachus fáigfi , bid trú isan bliadain sin. Ro-gés fál foat cosaib-se anniú’, ol in drái, ‘& do-r-airngert. An lín gairm ro-gés an cloch, is ed líon ríg bías dot síol co bráth.’ ‘Ní ba mé nod-sloindfe det,’ ol in drái .
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One day Conn was in Tara, after overthrowing the kings. Early in the morning he went up onto the royal rampart of Tara, before sunrise, together with his three druids, Mael and Bloc and Bluicne, and his three filid [poets], Ethain and Corb and Cesarn. For that company used to arise every day to keep watch, lest the men of the sídhe [fairies; Tuatha de Dannan] capture Ireland without his noticing.

It is onto the rampart that he used always to go; and he chanced upon a stone beneath his feet and trod upon it. The stone cried out beneath his feet, so that it was heard throughout all Tara, and throughout Brega. Then Conn asked his druids why the stone had cried out, what was its name, whence it had come and whither it would go, and why it had come to Tara. The druid said to Conn that he would not name it to him until fifty-three days had passed. When that number was complete, Conn asked the druid again.

Then the druid said: "Fáil is the name of the stone. It is the island of Fáil from which it was brought. It is in Tara of the land of Fáil that it has been placed. It is in the land of Tailtiu that it will remain until the Day of Judgment. And it is in that land that there will be a festive assembly for as long as there is kingship in Tara; and the ruler who does not find it [or leave it?] on the last day of the assembly will be a doomed man in that year. Fáil cried out beneath your feet today," said the druid, "and prophesied. The number of cries which the stone uttered is the number of kings that there will be of your race until the Day of Judgment. It is not I who will name them to you," said the druid.

---

English would be sufficient :rolleyes:

dubhthach

whupdedo wrote: »

English would be sufficient :rolleyes:

You wouldn't understand English from the 8th century when that Text was written. If you are going to quote a piece of text, then quote the original.

TheGlass

Mr. Nice wrote: »

It was the first random act of pointless stupid vandalism that came to mind.

Never said it was "good" "right" or "normal", or that it added to my enjoyment of life. People do stupid things, then some people grow up and see it was wrong.
I never enjoyed being on the wrong side of the law, especially when I was caught, but that's how it is.
Maybe you'll understand when you have as much life experience as me.[/QUOTE]

Right. I'll understand life better when I realise I've missed out on my adolescence because I didn't go around mindlessly vandalizing things :rolleyes:

uck51js9zml2yt

TheGlass wrote: »

Never said it was "good" "right" or "normal", or that it added to my enjoyment of life. People do stupid things, then some people grow up and see it was wrong.
I never enjoyed being on the wrong side of the law, especially when I was caught, but that's how it is.
Maybe you'll understand when you have as much life experience as me.

Right. I'll understand life better when I realise I've missed out on my adolescence because I didn't go around mindlessly vandalizing things :rolleyes:[/quote]


You've got it all wrong. He was only expressing his youthful feelings.. he wasn't mindlessly destroying other people's property... It just looks that way

kowloon

Will it still be a class II relic?

Mr. Nice

Metal_Maiden wrote: »

Either you're trolling or you're highly ignorant. In their mythology, it was brought to Ireland by the Tuatha Dé as one of the four treasures of Ireland. It was supposed to cry out under a true king. This was very important to them, as it symbolised the land and the Tuatha Dé approving of the ruler, who was then qualified to uphold cór (rightness) for the land. Here, from the Second Battle of Moytura:

There were four cities in which they were learning lore and science and magic arts, to wit Falias and Gorias, Murias and Findias.Out of Falias was brought the Stone of Fál, which was in Tara. It used to roar under every king that would take the realm of Ireland.Out of Gorias was brought the Spear that Lugh had. No battle was ever won against it or him who held it in his hand.Out of Findias was brought the Sword of Nuada. When it was drawn from its deadly sheath, no one ever escaped from it, and it was irresistible. Out of Murias was brought the Dagdae's Caldron. No company ever went from it unthankful.

With all due respect, I could make up a story like that.
In fact, I could make up a better one.
It's a nondescript piece of stone, placed there by 19th century romantics.
IMHO, that stone has no cultural or historical importance which can be proven.

Mr. Nice

dubhthach wrote: »

And it is in that land that there will be a festive assembly for as long as there is kingship in Tara

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There is no longer a kingship in Tara...
Hasn't been for many a long year.

Mr. Nice

dubhthach wrote: »

until the Day of Judgment. It is not I who will name them to you," said the druid.

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"Day of Judgement"?
Sounds like the Jesus crowd may have been a bit liberal with history to me.
A lot of Irish "history" was written by monks and should be considered in the same way as the bible, a very loose semi-fictional portrayal of real history.

I guess next you'll be trying to tell us that Oisin or the children of Lir gave the whole story to St. Patrick on their death beds :rolleyes:

Mr. Nice

Alma Powerful Musket wrote: »

Right. I'll understand life better when I realise I've missed out on my adolescence because I didn't go around mindlessly vandalizing things :rolleyes:

You've got it all wrong. He was only expressing his youthful feelings.. he wasn't mindlessly destroying other people's property... It just looks that way [/QUOTE]

I wasn't replying to you, so why did you quote me?

Do you feel the need to speak for other posters?

Who is this "he" you are referring to.

I have admitted on an open forum that I have previously committed crimes, some of which I regret. You don't know me, and you have no right to judge me.

Mr. Nice

Metal_Maiden wrote: »

Either you're trolling or you're highly ignorant. In their mythology, it was brought to Ireland by the Tuatha Dé as one of the four treasures of Ireland.

So it was brought to Ireland by a fictional people as a treasure of a land they had never laid eyes on before?

Did you even read that before you copied and pasted?

Frank Lee Midere

Mr. Nice wrote: »

You'll never know until you find out I guess. I never said I was proud of my actions, but vandalism, public order offences and a few other things were part of my growing up and becoming a mature member of society.

And I fail to see the relevance of kicking the kicking mirrors off cars and defacing public monuments reference. Unless you know my complete history, I'd advise that you refrain from conjecture...

You could have skipped the vandalism and grown up anyway. That's the way time works.

Mr. Nice

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

You could have skipped the vandalism and grown up anyway. That's the way time works.

I think you'll find that's how hindsight works your highhorseship

Metal_Maiden

Mr. Nice wrote: »

With all due respect, I could make up a story like that.
In fact, I could make up a better one.
It's a nondescript piece of stone, placed there by 19th century romantics.
IMHO, that stone has no cultural or historical importance which can be proven.

Uhm, what? The text I quoted is from the 11th century. The stone has been an orthostat for 5000 years according to archaeological analysis. It was moved to that particular spot in the 19th century from nearby afaik. I went there on a fieldtrip with my Irish Archaeology class in college and at no point did my professor claim it was some kind of hoax. There is no doubt that an important stone known as the Lia Fail stood in Tara and the stone there currently is very old. I somehow doubt you know more than archaeologists about the issue.

bitemybanger

I only live a couple of miles from Tara and would be up there with the kids quite a bit. It was attacked recently with a hammer or similar object but to think someone carried a hammer and a bucket of paint up there knew exactly what they were doing and had to have thought of it and planned it. sickens me. youth of today have no respect.

Mr. Nice

Metal_Maiden wrote: »

Uhm, what? The text I quoted is from the 11th century. The stone has been an orthostat for 5000 years according to archaeological analysis. It was moved to that particular spot in the 19th century from nearby afaik. I went there on a fieldtrip with my Irish Archaeology class in college and at no point did my professor claim it was some kind of hoax. There is no doubt that an important stone known as the Lia Fail stood in Tara and the stone there currently is very old. I somehow doubt you know more than archaeologists about the issue.

It's granite, of course it's old.

"Afaik", did you use that phrase in your thesis?

"There is no doubt", really? That is the actual stone?

And if your Professor never expressed doubt, then it must be true.

I'm not debating the fact that Tara is an important culturally historical site, but quoting an 11th century document written about pre-christian history casts your argument in a cloud of doubt.

If I weren't 1200kms away I'd be tempted to go over and smash the bloody thing into gravel - it is not a proven historical artefact. It's just a lump of stone put there in the 19th century with a dubious back story.

Mr. Nice

bitemybanger wrote: »

I only live a couple of miles from Tara and would be up there with the kids quite a bit. It was attacked recently with a hammer or similar object but to think someone carried a hammer and a bucket of paint up there knew exactly what they were doing and had to have thought of it and planned it. sickens me. youth of today have no respect.

How do you know that it was a young person who "vandalised" it?

Perhaps they did know what they were doing. Maybe they wanted to highlight that a lot of the history there is a sham perpetuated by the OPW.

For example, the "mound of the hostages" is an absolute fake, complete with chicken wire underneath the soil. I've been inside it.

Metal_Maiden

Mr. Nice wrote: »

How do you know that it was a young person who "vandalised" it?

Perhaps they did know what they were doing. Maybe they wanted to highlight that a lot of the history there is a sham perpetuated by the OPW.

For example, the "mound of the hostages" is an absolute fake, complete with chicken wire underneath the soil. I've been inside it.

Okay, that's crazy. The mound of hostages is a small Neolithic passage tomb. Whatever you saw was presumably part of a conservation effort, that is if you aren't just being a complete lying troll. I hope nobody assumes you know what you're talking about and please stop replying to everyone in this thread with rubbish.

bitemybanger

Mr. Nice wrote: »

How do you know that it was a young person who "vandalised" it?

Perhaps they did know what they were doing. Maybe they wanted to highlight that a lot of the history there is a sham perpetuated by the OPW.

For example, the "mound of the hostages" is an absolute fake, complete with chicken wire underneath the soil. I've been inside it.

Ha, I think your just on here to take the p!ss.

If I weren't 1200kms away I'd be tempted to go over and smash the bloody thing into gravel - it is not a proven historical artefact. It's just a lump of stone put there in the 19th century with a dubious back story.

What an idiotic comment.

RDM_83 again

Mr. Nice wrote: »

For example, the "mound of the hostages" is an absolute fake, complete with chicken wire underneath the soil. I've been inside it.

Could be just from the excavations in the fifties.

Anyway here is what is a paraphrasing of C.Newman says about the Lia Fail

On the northern side of the central mound of the Forrad is a pillar-shaped stone, popularly identified as the Lia Fail, which was moved here from its original position near Duma na nGiall(Mound of the hostages) in 1824 in commemoration of those who fell during the Battle of Tara in 1798.
It is lightly engraved with a cross and the letters R.I.P below which may be the very faint traces of a ringed cross. It is a course white granite comprised of eudedral quartz and euedral feldspar.......Without microscopic and geochemical analysis it is impossible to identify and exact source for this stone. Examination of well-exposed sections of local eskers which are currently used as quarries, however suggests that none of the glacially derived rocks or boulders exceeds about 0.3m in diameter. Thus if the Lia Fail is a glacial erratic it is probably not from this area. The nearest possible bedrock sources are the granitic parts of the major igneous intrusives in the north of Ireland, such as the Newry granodiorite.
The stone is clearly phallus-shaped and features, in this modus, in an account of the inauguration ceremony of the kings of Tara described in the eigth-century text De Shil Chonairi Moir, according to which the prospective king mates, symbolically, with Medh, goddess of Tara, by riding his chariot between the magic stones Blocc and Bluigne, which part only for the rightful king, and over the Lia Fail, which screeches out against his chariot axel.

Even if you don't consider the Lia Fail as having any historic value in relation to Irish Mythology since its movement from the Mound of the Hostages, it is a historic monument to 1798 so deserves protection from vandals for that reason alone.

gozunda

Mr. Nice wrote: »

...

If I weren't 1200kms away I'd be tempted to go over and smash the bloody thing into gravel - it is not a proven historical artefact. It's just a lump of stone put there in the 19th century with a dubious back story.

Well you better bring a very big hammer because you will have a job with all the other unproven historical artefacts (sic) in the country. Many historical sites are based on context, archaeology and later written record. Many historical sites have been altered and changed since they were first built, however that does not negate the value of individual parts or the historical site as a whole

Your call to cultural vandalism is the same level of ignorance as the destruction of Afghanistan's Bamiyan Buddhas in 2001 by the Taliban

I applaud the fact that you are 1200 kms away. Perhaps there is some archaeological sites you perceive as dubious close by you can 'reduce to gravel' for your own satisfaction.

MadMardegan

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-investigation-after-iconic-ancient-stone-at-hill-of-tara-vandalised-with-paint-30314709.html

Gardai are investigating vandalism to the Lia Fail Standing Stone at the top of the Hill of Tara in County Meath.

Members of An Garda Siochana are understood to be carrying out a forensic examination of the site after paint was poured over the stone sometime overnight.

At least half of the five thousand-year-old granite has been covered by the paint.

Tourist guides at the ancient site discovered it had been vandalised when they arrived to work this morning.

It is not the first incident of vandalism at the monument, it had been previously damaged in 2012 when it was believed to have been struck with a hammer or similar instrument.

Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht Jimmy Deenihan condemned the incident to the iconic stone.

“This act of mindless vandalism, on one of our premier archaeological sites, is truly shameful,” he said.

“The national monuments at Tara, which include this standing stone, form part of our national heritage and history.

The iconic stone is 5,000 years old

“Not only are they cherished here in Ireland, they are also nationally and internationally renowned.

“I call for anyone with any information about who may have been responsible to inform the Gardai,” he added.

The Lia Fáil Stone features extensively in ancient texts.

The granite stone is associated with the inauguration rites for the Kings of Tara and was moved to its current position in the early nineteenth century.

This kind of mindless vandalism makes absolutely no sense to me!
The 5000 year old stone represents a huge part of our heritage. Why would anyone want to damage it?

In relation to the thread about "Irrational feelings of sadness", I have to say that this does it for me. To think that someone would want to destroy something of such historic importance is sickening. They have no place in a civilised society.

I really hope they catch the people responsible and they're punished accordingly.

COYVB

Whether it was a 5000 year old rock or a reason one in a field, you have to be a special kind of moron to pour a can of paint over it

MadMardegan

COYVB wrote: »

Whether it was a 5000 year old rock or a reason one in a field, you have to be a special kind of moron to pour a can of paint over it

Apparently it'll be tough to repair it properly without causing damamge to the rock face itself... absolute scumbags of the highest order!

Oblong Gator

Is it still a grade 2 relic?

Sir Arthur Daley

Is this not already discussed?

MadMardegan

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is this not already discussed?

No idea... didn't see a thread about it and wanted to voice my opinion.

syklops

I read this earlier today.

Am I the only one surprised it wasnt under some kind of security?

Sir Arthur Daley

MadMardegan wrote: »

No idea... didn't see a thread about it and wanted to voice my opinion.

Did you even take the time to look to see that there might be?