Ulster Bank League 2014-2015 talk/gossip/rumours

Stainalert

thomond2006 wrote: »

If I understand the idea of PPS, it's to restrict clubs hoovering up the top players? When you've got Dublin clubs with major sponsors I'm sure they can "sort players out" who decide to move and play there. Put in a good word to get a job etc.

IRFU say that the PPS is being introduced to reduce the number of player transfers and they have cited the number of transfers between Munster clubs as evidence and not actually transfers from Munster clubs to non Munster clubs.

ArmchairQB

Article nails it really, different clubs have different agendas most of 1a and some of 1b have and will continue to develop players for provincal and the national teams but now if a quality player from a 2b club has bigger aspirations than his club then he is punished for moving and given a high points allocation. This view against the pps also comes from a professional rugby administrator who has experience of the points system in Oz and is not a fan as is the case with most other professionally qualified & experienced rugby coaches & administrators who know that clubs like Cork Con, Young Munster, Garryowen, Clontarf, Lansdowne, UCD, Trinity, Mary's, Dolphin etc are an important link to the pro game and can offer quality set ups to prepare players for the pro game more so than less ambitous clubs who are content at just senior status that is the crux of it really

FrannoFan

PPS thing seems potentially disastrous. A school boy leaving schools rugby system who was never involved in a club isn't wanted by any new club because he is not a star player and his PPS is too high!

rugby needs to encourage players leaving school to join clubs, there shouldn't be anything to inhibit it.

Ideal world clubs would have school links and they wouldn't count but that is not always realistic.

A streamlining of talent into 1A could reduce the gap between pro and amateur.

This seems like a case of the "have nots" trying to do something to stop the "have's"

The Lost Sheep

GavMan wrote: »

Good read. Seems Nucifora wants the club game to be taken more seriously. Can only be a good thing

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/irfu-need-to-stop-stalling-the-club-game-and-drive-on-31228745.html

Of course the club game has to be taken more seriously. We dont have a full proper A league so AIL is needed to give squad players games etc

thomond2006 wrote: »

If I understand the idea of PPS, it's to restrict clubs hoovering up the top players? When you've got Dublin clubs with major sponsors I'm sure they can "sort players out" who decide to move and play there. Put in a good word to get a job etc.

It is to stop clubs hoovering up players but sometimes it can be hard to prove.

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Article nails it really, different clubs have different agendas most of 1a and some of 1b have and will continue to develop players for provincal and the national teams but now if a quality player from a 2b club has bigger aspirations than his club then he is punished for moving and given a high points allocation. This view against the pps also comes from a professional rugby administrator who has experience of the points system in Oz and is not a fan as is the case with most other professionally qualified & experienced rugby coaches & administrators who know that clubs like Cork Con, Young Munster, Garryowen, Clontarf, Lansdowne, UCD, Trinity, Mary's, Dolphin etc are an important link to the pro game and can offer quality set ups to prepare players for the pro game more so than less ambitous clubs who are content at just senior status that is the crux of it really

But most of those clubs dont actually produce most of their players with no age grade systems and this system is to help the navans, bruffs, nenaghs, cashels, skerries etc who produce 80/90% of the players they use in the league
The player may be punished but the clubs in the top flight dont actually get the players developed up the grades so why shouldnt they face a penalty as such for not developing any age grade systems etc

FrannoFan wrote: »

PPS thing seems potentially disastrous. A school boy leaving schools rugby system who was never involved in a club isn't wanted by any new club because he is not a star player and his PPS is too high!

rugby needs to encourage players leaving school to join clubs, there shouldn't be anything to inhibit it.

Ideal world clubs would have school links and they wouldn't count but that is not always realistic.
A streamlining of talent into 1A could reduce the gap between pro and amateur.
This seems like a case of the "have nots" trying to do something to stop the "have's"

No its the "have nots" protecting themselves and the IRFU looking to reward loyalty to clubs not players fishing around for the best deal every season which occurs every season in some places
To improve the number of kids who leave school playing there needs to be way more opportunities for kids to play for clubs despite being in a school where they play 15 or so games a season.
The links between clubs and schools for age grade rugby has to be better. Kids should be able to play for both and have toi be able to play for both within reason
Streamlining talent into 1A. How would you do that in a fair and equal manner.
What do you define as being a "have" and a "have not"?

ArmchairQB

:rolleyes:

RuPi

PPS is an interesting point, do Contracted, academy and development players fall under this?

Just I know in Ulster that all contracted, development, academy and sub academy players are allocated to clubs.

A few changes already in the off season up here, Ballymena the big movers bringing in Keiran Joyce, Ross Kane and John Creighton from Malone as well as Jack Owens from Queens. Malone have had all contracted players moved away from them now they have dropped to 2A, similar to Dungannon last year, but the year before Ballymena were given a years grace with their contracted players, Malone aren't overly happy.

The big talking point at present is that in the past Ulster Rugby Staff were not supposed to coach at clubs, this now appears to have changed with Luke Marshall the new Rainey OB's backs coach and Willie Faloon the Armagh forwards coach, yet both are allocated to other clubs.

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Typical. Why not actually debate the topic....

RuPi wrote: »

PPS is an interesting point, do Contracted, academy and development players fall under this?

Just I know in Ulster that all contracted, development, academy and sub academy players are allocated to clubs.

A few changes already in the off season up here, Ballymena the big movers bringing in Keiran Joyce, Ross Kane and John Creighton from Malone as well as Jack Owens from Queens. Malone have had all contracted players moved away from them now they have dropped to 2A, similar to Dungannon last year, but the year before Ballymena were given a years grace with their contracted players, Malone aren't overly happy.

The big talking point at present is that in the past Ulster Rugby Staff were not supposed to coach at clubs, this now appears to have changed with Luke Marshall the new Rainey OB's backs coach and Willie Faloon the Armagh forwards coach, yet both are allocated to other clubs.

They all do play a role. Players moving between clubs regularly is also being monitored
Interesting players allowed to coach. Its mainly the development coaches etc who are not allowed coach as in RDO/CDOs etc and that's been the rile for years players would be different I would have thought to the pro development staff

ArmchairQB

No problem debating in correct forum but getting lectured at by you is not something I am interested in pursuing, you need to mind your step climbing of your high horse your views are your own not the way it is, same as mine but hard for you to grasp that!

Stainalert

But most of those clubs dont actually produce most of their players with no age grade systems and this system is to help the navans, bruffs, nenaghs, cashels, skerries etc who produce 80/90% of the players they use in the league
The player may be punished but the clubs in the top flight dont actually get the players developed up the grades so why shouldnt they face a penalty as such for not developing any age grade systems etc

So according to Lost Sheep Cork Con, Young Munster, Garryowen, Clontarf, Lansdowne, UCD, Trinity, Mary's, Dolphin along with all the clubs in the top flight don't have any age grade systems or develop players through age grade systems!!! Interesting!!!

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

But most of those clubs dont actually produce most of their players with no age grade systems and this system is to help the navans, bruffs, nenaghs, cashels, skerries etc who produce 80/90% of the players they use in the league
The player may be punished but the clubs in the top flight dont actually get the players developed up the grades so why shouldnt they face a penalty as such for not developing any age grade systems etc

So according to Lost Sheep Cork Con, Young Munster, Garryowen, Clontarf, Lansdowne, UCD, Trinity, Mary's, Dolphin along with all the clubs in the top flight don't have any age grade systems or develop players through age grade systems!!! Interesting!!!

Many of those clubs don't have age grade teams that compete all through the season with 12-15 competitive games for players. Most of those clubs use players developed mainly in other clubs.
How many of Lansdownes all Ireland winners were always Lansdowne players? How many are true out and out Lansdowne players? Birr/Waterpark/Corinthians/Co Carlow...

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Many of those clubs don't have age grade teams that compete all through the season with 12-15 competitive games for players. Most of those clubs use players developed mainly in other clubs.
How many of Lansdownes all Ireland winners were always Lansdowne players? How many are true out and out Lansdowne players? Birr/Waterpark/Corinthians/Co Carlow...

Which of these clubs don't have age grade systems? Trinity is one. So what is the definition of an out and Trinity player? They don't have a minis or youth system because they are a university club but you're claiming they don't develop players.

Just because clubs have different structures doesn't mean they don't develop players. A huge percentage of Lansdowne's AIL winners would have played 20s rugby in Lansdowne and then "developed" into senior players. Surely Clontarf should be credited with developing Royce Burke Flynn or Ian Hirst into Leinster players?

You are aware that Dublin schools ringfence their squads and do not permit them to play youth rugby with clubs?

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Which of these clubs don't have age grade systems? Trinity is one. So what is the definition of an out and Trinity player? They don't have a minis or youth system because they are a university club but you're claiming they don't develop players.

Just because clubs have different structures doesn't mean they don't develop players. A huge percentage of Lansdowne's AIL winners would have played 20s rugby in Lansdowne and then "developed" into senior players. Surely Clontarf should be credited with developing Royce Burke Flynn or Ian Hirst into Leinster players?

You are aware that Dublin schools ringfence their squads and do not permit them to play youth rugby with clubs?

Sorry I should clarify what I meant. These clubs don't develop players from 6 to 6 nations like IRFU want etc. Many don't really look to field at age grade.
Dublin schools do ringfence players into solely playing in the school but that is no reason for clubs not to still have teams fielding. The population of Dublin is so big clubs should still be fielding either stand-alone or combining with local clubs. Its pathetic out of the IRFU/Leinster branch/Clubs in Dublin that many kids don't have an opportunity to play rugby

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Sorry I should clarify what I meant. These clubs don't develop players from 6 to 6 nations like IRFU want etc. Many don't really look to field at age grade.
Dublin schools do ringfence players into solely playing in the school but that is no reason for clubs not to still have teams fielding. The population of Dublin is so big clubs should still be fielding either stand-alone or combining with local clubs. Its pathetic out of the IRFU/Leinster branch/Clubs in Dublin that many kids don't have an opportunity to play rugby

I agree with you re Dublin clubs - They should do better but I do think it is difficult particularly in somewhere like Dublin 4 where Bective, Wesley, Old Belvedere, Lansdowne, Monkstown, Railway Union all compete for schools / youth players in a pretty tight area. They also have to compete with a lot of other competing sports and interests.

My point is that just because a club doesn't develop a player all the way from age 6 to AIL doesn't mean that they aren't contributing to player development. Development takes on a lot of different shapes and forms and that should be embraced.

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

I agree with you re Dublin clubs - They should do better but I do think it is difficult particularly in somewhere like Dublin 4 where Bective, Wesley, Old Belvedere, Lansdowne, Monkstown, Railway Union all compete for schools / youth players in a pretty tight area. They also have to compete with a lot of other competing sports and interests.

My point is that just because a club doesn't develop a player all the way from age 6 to AIL doesn't mean that they aren't contributing to player development. Development takes on a lot of different shapes and forms and that should be embraced.

Ive been a member of a club listed there and while there is a lot of clubs there several of those clubs have secondary grounds elsewhere and they could look to field youths teams fielding out of those grounds or in combination anyway. Those clubs dont do anything compared to most clubs elsewhere in developing players. Perhaps what i said wrt development wasnt perfect but point was fairly clear. These clubs should be doing much more

FrannoFan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Ive been a member of a club listed there and while there is a lot of clubs there several of those clubs have secondary grounds elsewhere and they could look to field youths teams fielding out of those grounds or in combination anyway. Those clubs dont do anything compared to most clubs elsewhere in developing players. Perhaps what i said wrt development wasnt perfect but point was fairly clear. These clubs should be doing much more

Ok maybe they should do more to develop players.

But if the pps thing comes in you prevent a system where your best players compete against each other. How does that improve standards? You surely need an AIL to offer an alternative pathway to pro game. Top quality players left in junior rugby restricts their ambitions. This seems to benefit clubs more than the players.

The Lost Sheep

FrannoFan wrote: »

Ok maybe they should do more to develop players.

But if the pps thing comes in you prevent a system where your best players compete against each other. How does that improve standards? You surely need an AIL to offer an alternative pathway to pro game. Top quality players left in junior rugby restricts their ambitions. This seems to benefit clubs more than the players.

The best players should compete against each other but the system in place now is adversely affected by those with the biggest chequebook. Wanderers got relegated several seasons ago. Did they regroup and build a player base out of age grade ranks? No because they don't look to that. They threw the wallet at players and got back up. That doesn't do anything for rugby.

The AIL should be part of the pathway to pro game but that isn't its main/primary function.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The best players should compete against each other but the system in place now is adversely affected by those with the biggest chequebook. Wanderers got relegated several seasons ago. Did they regroup and build a player base out of age grade ranks? No because they don't look to that. They threw the wallet at players and got back up. That doesn't do anything for rugby.

The AIL should be part of the pathway to pro game but that isn't its main/primary function.

The biggest chequebook? That's a pretty insulting slight on all the coaches / administrators at all those lazy evil 1A clubs you are having a pop at. I think you are way off the mark. Which of these clubs does not have age grade teams? (With the obvious exception of Trinity because they can't)

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

The biggest chequebook? That's a pretty insulting slight on all the coaches / administrators at all those lazy evil 1A clubs you are having a pop at. I think you are way off the mark. Which of these clubs does not have age grade teams? (With the obvious exception of Trinity because they can't)

Yeah and that's not insulting to those clubs. If you cant see how the money involved is why players gravitate to some clubs you're crazy.
Eh how many clubs have age grade systems with players getting a minimum of 12-15 games which is what the IRFU states is the ideal/minimum number of games clubs should be providing for teams. Several of those clubs don't have teams getting anything near that.
And Trinity could if they wanted to field underage sides. They could do like NUIG have done and field age grade teams at under 13/14/15 if they wanted to....

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yeah and that's not insulting to those clubs. If you cant see how the money involved is why players gravitate to some clubs you're crazy.
Eh how many clubs have age grade systems with players getting a minimum of 12-15 games which is what the IRFU states is the ideal/minimum number of games clubs should be providing for teams. Several of those clubs don't have teams getting anything near that.
And Trinity could if they wanted to field underage sides. They could do like NUIG have done and field age grade teams at under 13/14/15 if they wanted to....

Which teams don't have the structures? I am very sure Cork Con do and I know mini and youth rugby is thriving in clubs like Clontarf and Lansdowne. So I think you are off the mark in suggesting that all these clubs don't develop players - They develop players across all different grades and are doing a particularly good job at senior level.

You are suggesting that the only reason for success in these clubs is money and that is highly insulting to anyone involved.

Interesting that you hold out NUIG as a poster boy for Trinity. I think university clubs should focus on exactly what they are i.e. a university club. And just because they choose to do that they shouldn't be penalised / handicapped by a PPS.

FrannoFan

If it is part of a pathway to pro game you need a top league where players can freely move.
Player payment has been banned. Obviously ways around that but theoretically not an option
All clubs at all levels have players moving in from other backgrounds. Otherwise where would all the schoolboys go? Yes they should be involved in a club but they are not. Should they be punished?
Some small benefits of pps but not in my opinion outweighed by the negatives.

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Which teams don't have the structures? I am very sure Cork Con do and I know mini and youth rugby is thriving in clubs like Clontarf and Lansdowne. So I think you are off the mark in suggesting that all these clubs don't develop players - They develop players across all different grades and are doing a particularly good job at senior level.

You are suggesting that the only reason for success in these clubs is money and that is highly insulting to anyone involved.

Interesting that you hold out NUIG as a poster boy for Trinity. I think university clubs should focus on exactly what they are i.e. a university club. And just because they choose to do that they shouldn't be penalised / handicapped by a PPS.

How many of those clubs have teams regularly fielding near or over the number of games IRFU want for age grade teams.
Cork Con have in recent years and that's great but how many others do. Look at numbers of players gravitating to certain clubs. Money is certainly playing a role and you're blind if you cant see that

The universities are not going to be penalised/handicapped by PPS.
Whats interesting about my mentioning of NUIG?
Most/All university clubs are open clubs and are not being handicapped by PPS introduction

FrannoFan

If the pps is designed to protect clubs why put such a high points total on schoolboys who have no previous club?
This is all about clubs looking to keep up with the top clubs who get players from school and less about there best players moving.

You keep talking about a cheque book, player payment has been banned. Better policing of that could be used.

If it is to stop players moving too frequently set a limit of number of years that a player has to stay before he can move on.

This is all about the non 1A clubs trying to stay in touch with the top. It is not for the betterment of the game. Some former great clubs have fallen behind and can't get back where they were so they are trying to hold back the top tier.

The Lost Sheep

FrannoFan wrote: »

If the pps is designed to protect clubs why put such a high points total on schoolboys who have no previous club?
This is all about clubs looking to keep up with the top clubs who get players from school and less about there best players moving.

You keep talking about a cheque book, player payment has been banned. Better policing of that could be used.

If it is to stop players moving too frequently set a limit of number of years that a player has to stay before he can move on.

This is all about the non 1A clubs trying to stay in touch with the top. It is not for the betterment of the game. Some former great clubs have fallen behind and can't get back where they were so they are trying to hold back the top tier.

Perhaps there is an element of bridging the gap between the top sides and those not in 1A but whats wrong with that in many circumstances?
How many real true 'community clubs' are in 1A where you can play a proper season from age 6 to 60... where you can play all age grades then all through adult rugby.
Because the banning of payments will really stop the payments..

The closing of the gap between 1A clubs with resources in different means much greater than all others and non 1A clubs is for the betterment of the game.
What former great clubs are you referring to in relation to trying to holding back the top tier?

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How many of those clubs have teams regularly fielding near or over the number of games IRFU want for age grade teams.

You tell me you're the one who is criticising them?

Cork Con have in recent years and that's great but how many others do. Look at numbers of players gravitating to certain clubs. Money is certainly playing a role and you're blind if you cant see that

It is my experience that money is much more prevalent in the lower divisions of the UBL and not at the top. Which clubs are you referring to?

The universities are not going to be penalised/handicapped by PPS.
Whats interesting about my mentioning of NUIG?
Most/All university clubs are open clubs and are not being handicapped by PPS introduction

Of course the universities are going to be handicapped like any other club - The PPS is as you say encouraging clubs to develop age grade etc which Trinity don't have. Your NUIG comment is interesting because you are holding them up as a great example for other universities to follow yet all the other universities have been far more successful in recent years

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Perhaps there is an element of bridging the gap between the top sides and those not in 1A but whats wrong with that in many circumstances?
How many real true 'community clubs' are in 1A where you can play a proper season from age 6 to 60... where you can play all age grades then all through adult rugby.
Because the banning of payments will really stop the payments..

The closing of the gap between 1A clubs with resources in different means much greater than all others and non 1A clubs is for the betterment of the game.
What former great clubs are you referring to in relation to trying to holding back the top tier?

Blackrock (Fergus Slattery) , Galwegians (Billy Glynn) and Ballymena (Ian McIlrath) and more prominently of late Cork Con in the form of Greg Barrett. Not sure if Greg Barrett is articulating Cork Con policy or if it is a solo run.

The Lost Sheep

You tell me you're the one who is criticising them?

Con only one at all age groups none of the others go through all the grades the number IRFU look for.

It is my experience that money is much more prevalent in the lower divisions of the UBL and not at the top. Which clubs are you referring to

:pac: Look at Lansdowne and countless other 1A/1B sides. Money much more prevalent in top sides.

Stainalert wrote: »

Of course the universities are going to be handicapped like any other club - The PPS is as you say encouraging clubs to develop age grade etc which Trinity don't have. Your NUIG comment is interesting because you are holding them up as a great example for other universities to follow yet all the other universities have been far more successful in recent years

Part of the PPS idea is to encourage proper age grade systems in all clubs and Trinity like UCD, UCC, Queens Belfast could more than develop age grade if they had to and work with children of university students and staff and children in local primary schools etc. Thats how NUIG set up their youth academy

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Con only one at all age groups none of the others go through all the grades the number IRFU look for.

Ehh not sure where you are getting your info but you are very wrong

:pac: Look at Lansdowne and countless other 1A/1B sides. Money much more prevalent in top sides.

Rubbish but don't let the truth get in the way of a good rumour The only club you mentioned throwing the cash about was Wanderers (2B)! One of the main reasons the PPS was introduced was the amount of transfers within Munster alone - nothing to do with the Clontarfs & Lansdowne's of this world

Part of the PPS idea is to encourage proper age grade systems in all clubs and Trinity like UCD, UCC, Queens Belfast could more than develop age grade if they had to and work with children of university students and staff and children in local primary schools etc. Thats how NUIG set up their youth academy

Why do all clubs have to be the same? Nothing wrong with a university club being a university club. Would imagine Trinity etc are happy with their lot as is. And who's to say that is wrong?

We are at different ends of the spectrum here. You are looking at it from a 2A 2B point of view and I am seeing it from a 1A 1B viewpoint. That in itself is the problem - Different clubs want different things from the league