Cyclists mega-thread (WARNING: Before posting you must read post #1)

TheQuietFella

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/cycling-licenses-bike-bans--nsw-roads-considered

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-24237390

If they cycle anything like our cyclists on the roads particularly the Dublin Quays, I can see us heading in the same direction.

beauf

If they did it would be a U turn on policy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-quays-cycle-lane-to-lead-to-restrictions-for-dublin-motorists-1.1834760

City council chief executive Owen Keegan ....said restricting the road space available to cars was essential as part of a sustainable transport system in the city.

The ultimate goal is to increase the number of commuter journeys by bike from 4 per cent to 10 per cent by 2020.

He maintained that the imperative to reduce car journeys into the city would increase once the cross-city Luas linking the red and green lines opens. “We can’t give that road space to Luas and leave everything else as it is.

CramCycle

TheQuietFella wrote: »

If they cycle anything like our cyclists on the roads particularly the Dublin Quays, I can see us heading in the same direction.

If the behaviour of road users in Ireland is a measuring stick of suitability to using the roads, all that proves is that the current licensing system is a failure. The basics of driving that are abandoned on a daily basis, that people would have had to show their capability at during a test, are abandoned with glee apparently. Licensing cyclists won't solve that. In fact, at best it will just create another Quango with no purpose. If the Government invested their money into Gardai numbers, and cameras, who could then plough those numbers and equipment into basic law enforcement, then there would be significantly less issues.

end of the road

CramCycle wrote: »

If the behaviour of road users in Ireland is a measuring stick of suitability to using the roads, all that proves is that the current licensing system is a failure. The basics of driving that are abandoned on a daily basis, that people would have had to show their capability at during a test, are abandoned with glee apparently. Licensing cyclists won't solve that. In fact, at best it will just create another Quango with no purpose. If the Government invested their money into Gardai numbers, and cameras, who could then plough those numbers and equipment into basic law enforcement, then there would be significantly less issues.

sadly some cyclists miss behave, and sweeping that under the carpet and pretending cyclists don't break rules isn't going to end well. so we will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

sadly some cyclists miss behave, and sweeping that under the carpet and pretending cyclists don't break rules isn't going to end well. so we will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

Nobody is saying cyclists don't misbehave - the point is that a significant proportion do (as do a significant proportion of drivers, pedestrians and motorcyclists).

The question is what is the best to deal with it? Licensing is not - it's not even a good way to address the issue because it will be completely unenforceable, costly and not even tackle the issue.

A proper, resourced, targeted programme of enforcement would be more effective - and if they (the government) ever get around to introducing fixed penalty notices for certain cycling offences (no lights, RLJing, cycling on the path) it will cover some of its costs.

CramCycle

end of the road wrote: »

sadly some cyclists miss behave, and sweeping that under the carpet and pretending cyclists don't break rules isn't going to end well. so we will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

I think you meant to quote a different post because your response does not seem to be related to the post of mine you quoted

beauf

end of the road wrote: »

...We will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

Maybe require all drivers and cyclists to carry their PPS on them at all times. If identity is a problem.

Or maybe change the rules like Paris did allowing cyclist to go through a red light where appropriate.

Tenzor07

Yes, ticket cyclists just like these Dutch cops in Utrecht... Having said that, the Dutch have proper cycling infrastructure that's 30 years ahead of Ireland in terms of investment and design

beauf

5 cops in the one spot, stopping cyclists. A lot of resources. They have no number plates though. How do they manage?

Aard

No different than fining somebody on the Luas really is it? Except nobody's gonna bald-faced lie about their name and address to a Garda.

CramCycle

Aard wrote: »

No different than fining somebody on the Luas really is it? Except nobody's gonna bald-faced lie about their name and address to a Garda.

They might but Gardai have experience with this and if they suspect (doesn't have to be true) they can sieze the bicycle and potentially detain the person as well.

Spook_ie

beauf wrote: »

5 cops in the one spot, stopping cyclists. A lot of resources. They have no number plates though. How do they manage?

Aard wrote: »

No different than fining somebody on the Luas really is it? Except nobody's gonna bald-faced lie about their name and address to a Garda.

CramCycle wrote: »

They might but Gardai have experience with this and if they suspect (doesn't have to be true) they can sieze the bicycle and potentially detain the person as well.

Far easier to bring in identity cards like the Netherlands then

Although it is not compulsory to carry a proof of identity at all times, since 1 January 2005 it is compulsory to show identification, when an authorized officer asks for it, from the age of 14. An authorized officer can only do so under certain circumstances. Such circumstances include suspicious behaviour, committing any offense, or if a person is interviewed as a witness of a crime. Identity checks at events where the public order may be in danger are also allowed. Otherwise random identity checks by the police are not allowed in principle but can happen in certain areas such as a train station or doubtful areas i.e. redlight district, and a fine for not showing proof of identity may be successfully challenged in such cases. The fine for not being able to show proof of identity when legally required is €60.- (16 and over) or €30.- (14 or 15). Proof of identity is also required when opening a bank account and when entering an employment contract.[14]

end of the road

beauf wrote: »

Maybe require all drivers and cyclists to carry their PPS on them at all times. If identity is a problem.

Or maybe change the rules like Paris did allowing cyclist to go through a red light where appropriate.

absolutely not. no way should cyclists be able to have an exemption for running through red lights. red lights exist for a reason.

beauf

There's different reasons for lights.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red

beauf

Also this...

http://www.interfaithenergy.com/rss/131-stoplight-removal-in-philadelphia

Macy0161

end of the road wrote: »

sadly some cyclists miss behave, and sweeping that under the carpet and pretending cyclists don't break rules isn't going to end well. so we will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

Number plates don't make motorised vehicle drivers abide by the rules, why would it make cyclists? It'd only work if there was enforcement, and if there's going to be enforcement, they could be doing it now and it doesn't need a number plate!

I'm getting more annoyed at the focus on just cyclists for breaking reds. Every morning when I'm on the roads, I see every category of road user break lights. Motorised vehicles going well beyond amber gambling*. Pedestrians not waiting for their lights/ crossing at a junction on the side without the ped crossing. Maybe pedestrians should have number plates too?

*The N11/ Kilmacud Road Lower/ Stillorgan Park Road junction is really ridiculous with cars crossing the N11 breaking the lights. Since I've been doing my current commute, every morning (without fail) the cyclist/ ped crossing on this junction going into town has a green, and there's still motorised vehicles coming from Stillorgan Park Road. This morning I counted 6 cars/ vans going through where I had a green.

Pinch Flat

Cycled in this morning. Cars break reds at almost every junction I pass - sure they're in a rush and the traffic is a nightmare, so it's ok, the odd cyclist as well breaking reds.

Also drivers here have a fascination with the yellow box - it's like a little game to see how many cars can be crammed into it - never mind blocking the traffic coming the other way when the light changes. Also blocking the cycle lane at Kevin St - making it impossible to pass and having to weave around cars plonked in the yellow box.

Also was confronted by a car coming up the cycle lane on the wrong side of the road to get a space on St Stephens green opposite loreto - sure he has his hazards on so that's ok.

Macy0161

Was unsure whether to mention the cops blocking the cycle lane so they could pull cars for driving in the bus lane, and then parking them in the cycle lane to ticket them this morning!

Orion

Saw a brilliant one yesterday in Maynooth. Cycling down Mill St there was a ground sign for the car tyre shop placed smack in the middle of the cycle lane. It's probably the only decent cycle lane in Maynooth. I picked it up and moved it off the cycle lane - I was in a rush back to work otherwise I'd have mentioned it to the manager. I will next time I see that.

CramCycle

Macy0161 wrote: »

Was unsure whether to mention the cops blocking the cycle lane so they could pull cars for driving in the bus lane, and then parking them in the cycle lane to ticket them this morning!

almost as good as the NYC guy who was told that obstruction or not you must remain in the bike lane, his video response is quite hilarious, particularly the last obstacle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ

beauf

An oldie but a goldie.

RainyDay

end of the road wrote: »

sadly some cyclists miss behave, and sweeping that under the carpet and pretending cyclists don't break rules isn't going to end well. so we will have to make it law for every bike to have a number plate so they can easily be dealt with if they break the rules.

What percentage of law-breaking car drivers 'are easily dealt with if they break the law'? You know, the 2 or 3 or 4 cars who speed through the junction after the red, or the ones on their phone calling or Facebooking, or hell, even the ones with a missing brake light? What percentage of them get caught?

Spook_ie

RainyDay wrote: »

What percentage of law-breaking car drivers 'are easily dealt with if they break the law'? You know, the 2 or 3 or 4 cars who speed through the junction after the red, or the ones on their phone calling or Facebooking, or hell, even the ones with a missing brake light? What percentage of them get caught?

%wise, in all likely hood more than the cyclists, purely because there is a penalty system in operation and offenders can be traced via registration numbers. The fact that the RSA have statistics availiable for penalty points issued shows you to be barking up a wrong tree. Sure some drivers get away with it but then so do some murderers, drug dealers, burglars, rapists, cyclists etc. The GS can't be everywhere all the time.
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Penalty-Point-Statistics/

RainyDay

Spook_ie wrote: »

%wise, in all likely hood more than the cyclists, purely because there is a penalty system in operation and offenders can be traced via registration numbers.[/url]

Perhaps not surprisingly, you're looking at only one side of the issue. You fail to look at the number of offences committed by drivers. How many times did you break the urban speed limit today? How many orange or even red lights did you go through? How many times did you have your phone in your hand?

Now add it all up and multiply it out, and see how useless the licencing system is at preventing breaches of road traffic law. And btw, cyclists do get prosecuted - thousands of them; http://irishcycle.com/2014/10/07/3200-irish-cyclists-summoned-to-court-in-ten-years/

Spook_ie

RainyDay wrote: »

Perhaps not surprisingly, you're looking at only one side of the issue. You fail to look at the number of offences committed by drivers. How many times did you break the urban speed limit today? How many orange or even red lights did you go through? How many times did you have your phone in your hand?

Now add it all up and multiply it out, and see how useless the licencing system is at preventing breaches of road traffic law. And btw, cyclists do get prosecuted - thousands of them; http://irishcycle.com/2014/10/07/3200-irish-cyclists-summoned-to-court-in-ten-years/

Oh yeah thats what 0.87 a day! Probably spot that many in 5 minutes at one set of lights if I was inclined, so you do the math instead

As to the number of times I broke the laws, very presumptious of you to infer that I broke any laws today or any day for that matter

monument

Spook_ie wrote: »

Sure some drivers get away with it but then so do some murderers, drug dealers, burglars, rapists, cyclists etc. The GS can't be everywhere all the time.

Compare general cycling or driving offences to rape or murder again and you will be infracted. This kind of over-the-top, provocative posting is viewed as trolling.

This thread is not a free-for-all.

-- Mod

RainyDay

Spook_ie wrote: »

Oh yeah thats what 0.87 a day! Probably spot that many in 5 minutes at one set of lights if I was inclined, so you do the math instead

Yes, I think perhaps I should do the maths rather than you doing the maths, because you seem to be struggling at some of the basics there.

Spook_ie wrote: »

As to the number of times I broke the laws, very presumptious of you to infer that I broke any laws today or any day for that matter

Are you seriously telling me that you didn't break the urban speed limit today? If yes, you are a very unusual driver and an absolutely unique taxi driver.

Spook_ie

RainyDay wrote: »

Yes, I think perhaps I should do the maths rather than you doing the maths, because you seem to be struggling at some of the basics there.


Are you seriously telling me that you didn't break the urban speed limit today? If yes, you are a very unusual driver and an absolutely unique taxi driver.

Perhaps you'd like to do the math then, from your link 3200 cyclists in 10 years, my math makes that 320 per year 3200/10

Divide that by 365 320/365 = 0.87 per day

From the article itself

– Over 350 brought to court for cycling by red lights last year in Dublin alone

Over 3,200 people were summoned to Irish courts for cycling road traffic offences between 2003 and 2013.

So lets see 350/365 is still only 0.95 per day


Again very presumptious of you to reckon I break any motoring laws as a taxi driver or otherwise

RainyDay

Spook_ie wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to do the math then, from your link 3200 cyclists in 10 years, my math makes that 320 per year 3200/10

Divide that by 365 320/365 = 0.87 per day

From the article itself


So lets see 350/365 is still only 0.95 per day

Perhaps you missed it the first time I said, so I'll say it again. You're looking at one side only. Take off the blinkers.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Again very presumptious of you to reckon I break any motoring laws as a taxi driver or otherwise

So you're telling me that you never break the urban speed limit then? And you never drive around with a broken light bulb?

Pinch Flat

RainyDay wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that you didn't break the urban speed limit today? If yes, you are a very unusual driver and an absolutely unique taxi driver.

I'd say in a very low minority. Driving standards are poor at the best of times. Taxi drivers have to be amongst the worst its a free for all. U turns out of the blue or the 'in' manoeuvre in dublin seems to be reversing backwards against the flow of traffic to either pick up a fare or take up a space in a rank. What about pulling in left to drop / collect a fare without warning / signalling - sure if it's a busy bike lane, roundabout or a street corner what does it matter?Or driving in bus lanes with no fares. Or parking on double yellows, creating impromptu ranks, even if it means bringing standstill to the street as the guy who parked outside the bookies on merrion row a couple of days back.

To continually give these one sided opinions and single out cyclists as the focus of all that is wrong with our roads is frankly laughable. There's plenty if plonkers out there on 2 and 4 wheels.