SOS Scopetronic Homeguard SOS

squidgyimp

Hi,
This is an SOS being sent out to anyone that might have a Europlex Scopetronic Homeguard keypad lying about in the bottom of a box or cupboard somewhere as my current keypad has a cracked no. pad circuit board and my current budget will not stretch to a new system.
I will attempt to repair this but I'm not holding out much hope so if you good people out
there could have a look see, it would be much appreciated.

Regards

KoolKid

None, sorry.
I have some used panels & keypads if you want a bit of an upgrade.

squidgyimp

KoolKid wrote: »

None, sorry.
I have some used panels & keypads if you want a bit of an upgrade.

Hi KoolKid, what type of systems are they, would they be compatible with my current sensors and bell box. What kind of prices are we talking.

kub

All you have to do is get the control panel replaced, everything on your system is compatible with a wired/hybrid panel. The only thing that needs to be replaced is the resistor on the bell box.

KoolKid

I have cs350 & keypad or some hkc 6/10 & 8/12s.
Im not trying to sell them to you. They are free if you want one.
They wwould work with the existing sensors.

squidgyimp

Hi KoolKid, that would be brilliant but I could not expect you to give for free. However after looking up some pictures of the quoted panels, would it be possible to get a HKC 8/12 from you as the circuit board layout looks very similar to the europlex panel and would be easier for me to swap over/install as I suffer from Arthritis and can only use screw drivers for limited times.

Also what's this resister change Kub has mentioned for the bell box ?. what is its purpose, can it be connected panel side and will it still have to be replaced even if the HKC panel's layout looks very similar ?.

Once again, THANKS for all your help.

Regards

kub

The bell box resistor on the Homeguard panel had a reading of 470 ohms, the ones on most modern systems have 4.70 ohms......note the dot.

It can indeed be positioned at the panel end. Its purpose is to provide the correct ohm reading as required by the panel as it monitors the condition of your external alarm sounder unit.

Ps Koolkid is one of the good guys.

squidgyimp

quote "Ps Koolkid is one of the good guys."

Hi kub, and I suppose your not !!!!! (LOL). From my experience so far, you both are.

Anyway good to know the resistor can be placed panel end as I don't fancy climbing a ladder to bell box unless I really have to.
So that resistor can be got in Maplins and just connected in tandem with existing resistor, yes ?.

There's a guy an adverts.ie selling a scopetronic complete setup for €180 that has two keypads and I asked if he would sell me one separately but alas, no joy there.

As stated previously would I be right with the choice offered by KoolKid, or are they all roughly the same ? as trying to repair this keypad is not going easy and I might have to take up KoolKid's offer.

kub

Please take up KoolKids offer, it's better the devil you know than the one that you don't...... only messing he is a pro, maybe the other guy is as well but selling a panel like that for that price is interesting.

I am sure KoolKid will throw in a resistor as well, they are usually falling out of our tool boxes.

squidgyimp

Yeah I thought it a little steep considering the age of the system however, in his defence it does come with smoke alarms and pir sensors and a panic button as well as the usual trimmings, but still, its nearly twenty years old.

As for KoolKid's offer I probably will as trying to solder this circuit board is fiddly to say the least, and then with my condition on top, I would be lying if I said it was going well !!

would I be right with selected panel?

kub

Yes the 8/12 is a decent panel.

The Homeguard was discontinued in around 1998, if not then earlier. Therefore parts are no longer available as you have experienced and it does not comply with the EN50131 standard which Insurance companies are beginning to insist upon.

squidgyimp

Did not know that, does the 8/12 or others that KoolKId is offering comply to this EN50131 standard and what does this standard imply ie; what are the main differences ?. (if you don't mind explaining).

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

Did not know that, does the 8/12 or others that KoolKId is offering comply to this EN50131 standard and what does this standard imply ie; what are the main differences ?. (if you don't mind explaining).

The 8/12 does indeed comply with EN50131.

Well primarily under EN50131, if the system activates all sounders have to cut out after 15 mins, if the system reactivates after the first occurrence, then it can only do this twice as the total time that the alarm activates cannot exceed 45 mins.
It provides full logs of all events including arm/ disarm details incl by which user and full activation details.
The standard also gives the client more control over the system as the Users code has to be used at all times even during quick code procedures.

The other benefits of the 8/12 are, you can connect a HKC digital communicator to it and hook it up with a phone line, this unit can be used for professional monitoring by central stations or self monitoring via text messaging.

squidgyimp

Wow that alarm sounds impressive compared to the one I have !!.

Are the time limitations so not to disturb the neighbours because if they are there's some seriously old alarms down my way as sometimes there are alarms going off for hours on end. (seriously, hours) LOL.

I noticed in other posts that yous recommend something like dual shock and contact sensors on windows, how can I tell if they are what I have, do I just bang the frame or something to see if that triggers the alarm or can you tell by looking and if they are not, are these dual sensors still available for the 8/12, in fact are any accessories available for the 8/12.

squidgyimp

p.s.
kub do you know what days does KoolKid be available on boards because I would love to take up his offer before he changes his mind. (lol).

should I just wait for contact or pm him. sorry if I sound a bit desperate (I am!) but one of my mates sometimes takes me night fishing to relax and chill on weekends which helps me but wife wont be to impressed not having alarm as well as dog for protection. (lol)

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

p.s.
kub do you know what days does KoolKid be available on boards because I would love to take up his offer before he changes his mind. (lol).

should I just wait for contact or pm him. sorry if I sound a bit desperate (I am!) but one of my mates sometimes takes me night fishing to relax and chill on weekends which helps me but wife wont be to impressed not having alarm as well as dog for protection. (lol)

Don't worry he will give you the panel alright, in our job 9-5 does not always apply, alarms have no respect for normal hours. you might be better off sending him a pm.

Enjoy the fishing, i used to do it before caught a few cod shore fishing on a freezing December night a few years ago.

squidgyimp

kub your a gentleman.

what's your opinion on sensors of pervious post.

Thanks

KoolKid

Hi Squidgy.
PM me your contact details & we'll sort something out.
If your in or around Dublin I can drop it to you or arrange delivery.

squidgyimp

Done
KoolKid you're a gentleman and a scholar

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

kub your a gentleman.

what's your opinion on sensors of pervious post.

Thanks

Now told you he would be back .

Just on the sensors and just to confirm something, alarm systems in general are not like car parts.....or fishing gear for that matter. For example a headlamp for a Ford escort will only fit a ford escort.
But with alarm systems any standard beam, shock sensor, contact etc will work with any standard control panel, so the 8/12 as an example is compatible with any other manufacturers standard detectors.
But when it comes to communicators and keypads, well they have to be compatible with the particular control panel.

We do recommend shock sensors and contacts to all external vulnerable windows and doors, with where ever possible a few beams as back up especially with monitored systems.

I suppose when you get the new system up and running you will have to conduct a walktest just to ensure that what you have in the line of detectors actually works, that will soon determine what detectors you have.

Apologies i missed that earlier post.

squidgyimp

Yeah, I know you did.

and yes I pretty much understood that but my question was how do I tell what type of window sensors do I currently have. Is it as simple as banging/opening them to see what happens or is there a way to tell by looking?.
Also there is an interior bell/siren box separate from the panel and keypad, would that be compatible too

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

Yeah, I know you did.

and yes I pretty much understood that but my question was how do I tell what type of window sensors do I currently have. Is it as simple as banging/opening them to see what happens or is there a way to tell by looking?.
Also there is an interior bell/siren box separate from the panel and keypad, would that be compatible too

Can you post a picture of one of them? Then we will be sure. Contacts basically are units that look identical to one another, one will be on the window frame and its twin will be on the opening section. Shock sensors are about the size of a match box but are more chunky, tapping some models might cause the sensor heads to rattle.

The internal bell should be, but I have encountered some old model 'SB 1's chirping after they were connected to new panels. But yes it should be compatible.

squidgyimp

Hi kub,
Don't actually see any where here to post a pic (help) but...

The ones on the windows are just a single unit on the frame fairly chunky but have slant at one end. knocked one at side and sounds like something moving/loose inside.

The ones on the doors are the same units on the frames but with extra pieces attached to the doors which look like magnets as they are long and thin.

so they could be dual shock and contact but only setup for shock on windows ?

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

Hi kub,
Don't actually see any where here to post a pic (help) but...

The ones on the windows are just a single unit on the frame fairly chunky but have slant at one end. knocked one at side and sounds like something moving/loose inside.

The ones on the doors are the same units on the frames but with extra pieces attached to the doors which look like magnets as they are long and thin.

so they could be dual shock and contact but only setup for shock on windows ?

Going by that description you are correct, I can never understand why an installer would just fit sensors to windows on their own when its so easy to also fit contacts.

squidgyimp

kub wrote: »

Going by that description you are correct, I can never understand why an installer would just fit sensors to windows on their own when its so easy to also fit contacts.

Probably just lazy or just cutting corners!

But can I buy the magnets separate and add to them?.

Are accessories still available for the panel KoolKid is offering?

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

Probably just lazy or just cutting corners!

But can I buy the magnets separate and add to them?.

Are accessories still available for the panel KoolKid is offering?

Yes you can add on those contacts to the sensors alright, I say contacts as the shock sensors can differ, as an example Aritech do a range of sensors, their GS612 has no contact reed switch within, but its twin the GS613 has and they look identical, obviously one of us could tell the difference by looking at the terminal block within the sensor. Also in general I find when lads are fitting sensors on their own they tend to fit them in the middle of the frame section, whereas the ones with the contacts within need to be positioned closer to the opening sector in order to line up with the magnet.

All parts are indeed available for the 8/12 and will be for the foreseeable future.

squidgyimp

kub wrote: »

Yes you can add on those contacts to the sensors alright, I say contacts as the shock sensors can differ, as an example Aritech do a range of sensors, their GS612 has no contact reed switch within, but its twin the GS613 has and they look identical, obviously one of us could tell the difference by looking at the terminal block within the sensor. Also in general I find when lads are fitting sensors on their own they tend to fit them in the middle of the frame section, whereas the ones with the contacts within need to be positioned closer to the opening sector in order to line up with the magnet.

All parts are indeed available for the 8/12 and will be for the foreseeable future.

Sure enough the ones on window frames are central to frame but will move if applicable. Being that alarm is off at moment, if I took one off what should I be looking for to see what exact type they are ?

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

Sure enough the ones on window frames are central to frame but will move if applicable. Being that alarm is off at moment, if I took one off what should I be looking for to see what exact type they are ?

Is there an obvious circle anywhere on the front of them and is there anything written on those circles? Could be Itec or Aritech.

Or is the retaining screw in the center of the sensor?

I am just trying to establish what make they are.

squidgyimp

kub wrote: »

Is there an obvious circle anywhere on the front of them and is there anything written on those circles? Could be Itec or Aritech.

Or is the retaining screw in the center of the sensor?

I am just trying to establish what make they are.

Yes there's a retaining screw on the front inset to the side of an oblong shape which to me is where a brand decal would be.
If I could work out how to post a pic, I would. Sorry

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

Yes there's a retaining screw on the front inset to the side of an oblong shape which to me is where a brand decal would be.
If I could work out how to post a pic, I would. Sorry

No obvious circle?

squidgyimp

kub wrote: »

No obvious circle?

Nothing obvious no. I'll take a cover of one in a bit and let you know what I see.

squidgyimp

Right took cover off a window and door sensor and they are identical in every way except colour. There is a rectangular box at one end that the wires connect to and also where the magnet sits near on the doors. At the other end there is a cylindrical object that rattles when removed and shook so they definitely appear to be shock and contact sensors, just not branded

kub

This rectangular object that the wires are connect to, is it a small green pcb?

Is the sensor head like a little barrel that is mounted on 4 little plastic holders?

squidgyimp

No all that's visible on the rectangular brown box is six screw on one half for connecting the wires from the panel and then on the other half six connection points which two are connected to the "sensor head like a little barrel that is mounted on 4 little plastic holders".
The two centre connection pins appear to be connected to something under/internal but cannot quite see what without taking apart.

Am I missing something or am I restricted as a newbie to post pictures as I cannot for the life of me work out to post/attach a picture

kub

Ok I am thinking it might be a Shorrock model, here is an images page from Google, is it there?

https://www.google.ie/search?q=inertia+shock+sensors&client=ubuntu&hs=tPd&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=QX1-U7GjBKXm7AbHpYGYAg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=631

A picture tells a thousand words

squidgyimp

Just seen I need to make 50 posts to enable the abilty to post photos. (half way to go).

Anyway kub the picture with the green glass on the first page resembles my units outer casings

squidgyimp

Actually kub after putting the same search through Bing images, I get a much clearer picture and the one with the green glass titled "skynetsecurity.ie" is definitely the same sensors that I have.

kub

It is the first generation HKC sensors that you have, God knows they gave trouble in their time :rolleyes:.

Anyway on the terminal block which the 2 white cables are connected to with the panel cables, the two outer terminals on either side are for connecting the contact reed switch, that is if it is a reed terminal block.

In order to find out, turn the terminal around and check can you see a little reed switch in a channel at the back of it.

squidgyimp

Hi kub,
this is what I have, two of the doors have sensors which have a reed switch in them, one door has two magnet strips (probably one block reed and one block magnet) attached to it (narrow space) and all windows have no reed included but there is space in them for one. Also big metal contact on garage door.

Can the window ones be upgraded with reeds or should I just replace (recommendations please) when I can ?

thanks

kub

Personally speaking I do not have much confidence in those sensors, in that I have found through out my years servicing/ repairing systems that they are / were very troublesome. Hopefully yours are ok, but a story will be told after you change out your panel.
In that if there are any dodgy ones out there, your replacement panel will probably analyse the zones better than the last one and any dodgy sensors out there will cause trouble.

The groves as you see on your window sensors which are empty are indeed for reed switches but only during the original manufacturing process. Basically when they were bought, the ones with the reeds were for the doors and without are for the windows, the ones without the reeds are a little cheaper than the ones with them.

You can always buy separate contact units and fit them to the openings alongside the window sensors and wire them in series with the sensors.

squidgyimp

Hi guys, just going through the manual of the hkc before I tackle the panel and section 2.4 has my a little confused in regards to it says to connect the strobe to the internal siren contacts on the panel. Is that what I have to do or is that just for the SABB box and I should just connect my internal siren there ?.

Also I think I will upgrade these inertia's in a bit, so do you have any recommendations of ones to go with this panel including pir's.

KoolKid

Can you list what connections you have from the external bell on the existing panel.?

squidgyimp

ok this is what I've got:
SAB EXT INT
TAMP -ve BELL BELL

RET HOLD - + - +
BLUE YELLOW GREEN WHITE BLACK RED
X2 X2

as you can see there are 2x black and red however only one set of red and black belong to the cable containg the blue, yellow, green and white. the other red and black go in to another wire.

KoolKid

At the panel what colours are to what terminals?

squidgyimp

Sorry I did actually have them all lined up put did not notice that after I posted everything shifted.

Tamp - Blue = RET. Yellow = HOLD.
Exterior bell - Green minus, White plus.
Internal bell - Black minus, Red plus

KoolKid

Ok so as I explained yesterday they will go to the corresponding connections in the HKC panel. Leave the resistor in place and leave out the tamper return.

squidgyimp

That's okay, understood. Just wanted to make the two sets of red and black stayed the same way for the new panel as there was two sets of wires going into just two contacts.

Thanks

KoolKid

That's right. On those panels the Strobe & the internal siren run off the same input.

squidgyimp

Thanks for the confirmation KoolKid

squidgyimp

Right lads hope I find you well today.
I have the replacement panel up and nearly wired in but just need to check something with yous.
Whern taking out the old panel the was a capacitor (I think, small grey box) between the live and neutral wires going into the box,
do I need to put this in the replacement panel and does it matter which way round it goes if it does

kub

squidgyimp wrote: »

Right lads hope I find you well today.
I have the replacement panel up and nearly wired in but just need to check something with yous.
Whern taking out the old panel the was a capacitor (I think, small grey box) between the live and neutral wires going into the box,
do I need to put this in the replacement panel and does it matter which way round it goes if it does

No you do not need that on the HKC, back in the day Scopetronic had to retrofit those as there was some issue with the transformers if my memory serves me right.