difference in electrics between UK & Ireland

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

the pratice now is to mount an enclosure in the meter box and within that enclosure is a main switch/fuse unit

it has to be an mcb

SpaceTime

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thanks for the answer. Why exception of the use of ring mains in the kitchen? - just curious like.

From what I've read the major concern is that a kitchen will typically have some of the highest resistive loads (heating appliances) in a house and they're all clustered together : 3kW kettle, dishwasher, possibly washing machine, dryer, and other heating appliances like deep fat friers, toasters etc.

If you have a ring circuit serving the kitchen and some other rooms or that is running on a long route you can end up with a situation where you've all the kitchen's load sitting very near one end of the ring.

Ring circuits were a copper saving idea invented in the UK after WWII. They allow you to carry 32A on a cable that's rated for 16 to 20A when used radially. The logic is that you're feeding the circuit from both ends as both ends of the ring are connected back to the same MCB on the circuit board.

If one side of the ring is significantly longer than the other and all the load is sitting at one end, you can end up with an 'unbalanced ring' which could (in theory) overheat.

While I've never seen or heard of a house fire happening because of this, I guess there's a theoretical possibility.

Also, Irish and British kitchens have changed dramatically since the 1950s and it's now likely there's many more appliances in use, particularly things like dishwashers.

There's also a serious issue if someone brakes the ring during DIY work like installing a socket or if a connection in a socket becomes loose.

If that happens, you won't notice anything i.e. the sockets will all remain live, but you'll suddenly have two radial circuits connected to a 32amp breaker instead of 20amp (or even 16amp).

So, that can create a risk of overheating and fire.

There's also no theoretical limit to the number of sockets you can add to a ring is in theory not limited, but a kitchen could need a bit more than 32A if all the appliances are on and running at full power (i.e. heating). So you could end up with annoying tripping out of the MCB.

Also, some Irish homes aren't really suited to rings. They're ideally suited to quite compact houses as they have to run around and back to the board.

In a smaller home, you could typically just have one ring upstairs and one downstairs. Common enough in England. In Ireland it seems to be a lot more common to have one radial per room (maybe 1 per two rooms in bedrooms etc).

A lot of Irish homes are quite sprawling compared to British ones, especially outside of urban areas. The long sprawling bungalow would create VERY strange rings.

Radials probably made more sense in those.

Also, Ireland historically followed somewhat more continental wiring practices. We would have used German-type sockets at one stage and definitely used German fuses. So, 16amp and 20amp radials were the norm in installations and I suspect the 'tradition' hung on after the introduction of fused plugs.

One big advantage of radials is they're a lot easier to trouble shoot if something does go wrong and a trip out will only hit one room (one radial).

On top of that a 20A MCB will act a lot quicker than a 13amp plug fuse. The fuses in those plugs are quite slow blowing relative to a breaker. I've seen that a few times in my own home where something has shorted live to neutral and the MCB's tripped but the plug fuse remained entirely intact!

Also, saw a situation where someone plugged two 3kW heaters into a single socket with an unfused double adaptor and it tripped 20A MCB after a few minutes. Had they been left on it's quite likely the socket would have been burnt out.

tomdempsey200

there's also all the later alterations and branches in kitchens so it just makes more sense to use radials

you'd also have to fit13amp switched spurs as overswitches for concealed sockets etc...which isn't the greatest job

a DP isolating switch for the 2.5 branch
and inaccessible socket makes more sense

SpaceTime

The current French regs work like this if anyone's interested:

Multiple RCDs feeding each row and lots of radials:

http://leniddecastors.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/Tableau-electrique.jpg

I think this is actually a model I'd prefer to see in Ireland rather than the UK setup. It's a bit more practical when you've a lot of final circuits (as is common here).

You wouldn't need the double pole MCBs here though as we don't use TT supplies like France where you can potentially have voltage on the neutral.

The 500mA 'disjoncteur' after the meter in France is also for TT supplies, so wouldn't be necessary either on most Irish setups.

The UK system's easy enough in a smaller house with rings as you can just whack in RCBOs for maybe 5 circuits max. Some Irish houses can have 3 rows+ of breakers.

inter. diff (interrupteur differentiel) = RCD
parafoudre = lightening protection.

Andy From Sligo

Wouldnt it be more practical to have everything protected by MCB's and the have one big 80a RCD/ELCB or 80a RCBO just after the main switch and cut out all these RCBO's for circuits? - I know that will mean if the sockets fail and trip the 80a RCD the lights will go off - but if its daylight then no problem - isnt RCBO on every circuit overkill (and add to expense) when maybe one RCD can protect the whole lot?

tomdempsey200

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Wouldnt it be more practical to have everything protected by MCB's and the have one big 80a RCD/ELCB or 80a RCBO just after the main switch and cut out all these RCBO's for circuits? - I know that will mean if the sockets fail and trip the 80a RCD the lights will go off - but if its daylight then no problem - isnt RCBO on every circuit overkill (and add to expense) when maybe one RCD can protect the whole lot?

you wouldn't have main isolator and rcd...the rcd would serve both functions once it's a suitable standard for the job

but no it's not a good idea the minimum would be the dual rcd board if all circuits were to be protected

that gives you some sockets and lights if one rcd trips

tomdempsey200

something more like those


consumers main mcb in meter cabinet

single or DP main switch

that's if you were to go the UK route with 30mA protection for all final circuits

Sir Arthur Daley

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

there's also all the later alterations and branches in kitchens so it just makes more sense to use radials

you'd also have to fit13amp switched spurs as overswitches for concealed sockets etc...which isn't the greatest job

a DP isolating switch for the 2.5 branch
and inaccessible socket makes more sense

Why put sockets behind appliance full stop? never saw the logic in it, put the socket in the cupboard beside the appliance e.g for a dishwasher put the socket into the sink unit, keep all the services together water, power and waste connections.
Having DP switches strewn across the kitchen splash back are ugly and totally unnecessary. Its would be very practical to retain a ring in a kitchen this way too.

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

for a dishwasher put the socket into the sink unit, .

you might be able to argue that's an accessible socket

but generally isolating switch is fitted in that case ime



cupboards and the like too...not great for accessibility


so doesn't really solve the problem

Sir Arthur Daley

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

cupboards and the like too...not great for accessibility


so doesn't really solve the problem

what is so inaccessibility about putting a socket into a cupboard? solves the problem very easy, simple way is always the best way.

Bruthal

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Wouldnt it be more practical to have everything protected by MCB's and the have one big 80a RCD/ELCB or 80a RCBO just after the main switch and cut out all these RCBO's for circuits? - I know that will mean if the sockets fail and trip the 80a RCD the lights will go off - but if its daylight then no problem - isnt RCBO on every circuit overkill (and add to expense) when maybe one RCD can protect the whole lot

The more circuits fed from the one RCD, the more likely nuisance trips are.

Faults such as neutral to earth shorts can be hard to find as well.

An RCBO for each circuit helps greatly reduce the above problems.

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Why put sockets behind appliance full stop? never saw the logic in it, put the socket in the cupboard beside the appliance e.g for a dishwasher put the socket into the sink unit, keep all the services together water, power and waste connections.
Having DP switches strewn across the kitchen splash back are ugly and totally unnecessary. Its would be very practical to retain a ring in a kitchen this way too.

For some reason I just never liked ring circuits.

Sir Arthur Daley

Bruthal wrote: »

For some reason I just never liked ring circuits.

I would have the opposite opinion now, different strokes for different folks i guess.

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I would have the opposite opinion now, different strokes for different folks i guess.

Yea, I don't like pull chords for showers either, mainly because I think wall switches are better, not because its strokes for folks etc. In a house, my opinion is radials are better, and offer better wiring design, rather than just throw in a ring, it will do the job.

More circuits with less sockets/circuit would be my own personal preference.

Only my opinion of course though.

Andy From Sligo

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

what is so inaccessibility about putting a socket into a cupboard? solves the problem very easy, simple way is always the best way.

if there any cupboards like our ones you'd have to wrestle with pots and pans and other Sh!te to get to the isolating switch in the cupboard to switch it off in a emergency, no, however ugly have them easy to reach above the worktop and labelled so you can reach them easily. Plus, if you have them in the cupboard and throw in a metal pan or something and cracks the plastic of the spur and touches the live parts!...:eek:

Sir Arthur Daley

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

if there any cupboards like our ones you'd have to wrestle with pots and pans and other Sh!te to get to the isolating switch in the cupboard to switch it off in a emergency, no, however ugly have them easy to reach above the worktop and labelled so you can reach them easily.

Yes of course having a DP switch on wall is easier but by how much? having the plug and socket beside you in a cupboard is alot more convenient for replacing if faulty rather than having it behind its appliance.

Plus, if you have them in the cupboard and throw in a metal pan or something and cracks the plastic of the spur and touches the live parts!...:eek:

You would not have a spur in the cupboard, if you are throwing pans into cupboards the likelyhood is you would be throwing them around on the counter too which poses equal risk of breaking faces of sockets.

Bruthal

DP switches would help locate faults on under counter sockets anyway, when they trip RCD s.

They can be a right nuisance when a problem occurs on kitchen sockets causing trips.

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

what is so inaccessibility about putting a socket into a cupboard? solves the problem very easy, simple way is always the best way.

not really

you have go round moving stuff and
opening doors to switch off appliances

not very practical

if the marked isolating switches are on the worktop the consumer can easily switch everything off when needed

Bruthal

It can be easier to pull out a washing machine in some houses, than clear out presses.

SpaceTime

Using fused plugs behind built-in appliances isn't a great idea if the fuse ever blows!

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a switched fused spur over the counter feeding a round pin 15A socket and plug?

I prefer to always have an accessible socket.

Bruthal

It would be a fair task to get manufacturers to fit 15 amp plugs to appliances.

tomdempsey200

I don't fit sockets directly behind appliances

I fit the socket under a sink etc

but I wouldnt consider that readily accessible at all

and still requires an overswitch in my book

Andy From Sligo

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You would not have a spur in the cupboard, if you are throwing pans into cupboards the likelyhood is you would be throwing them around on the counter too which poses equal risk of breaking faces of sockets.

If your a person who likes to make sure that everything is turned off at night you can see it better on a wall above the worktop rather than hidden away in a cupboard.

Andy From Sligo

this to me is the right way rather than hide the switches away in cupboards or behind the appliance, and your not going to bash metal pans of them if the switches are placed high enough:

tomdempsey200

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

If your a person who likes to make sure that everything is turned off at night you can see it better on a wall above the worktop rather than hidden away in a cupboard.

it's daft

its defeating the purpose of the new rules

whether it would comply I don't know

never tried it

Sir Arthur Daley

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

it's daft

Whats daft turning off every appliance by night or sockets in cupboards?

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Whats daft turning off every appliance by night or sockets in cupboards?

fitting kitchen sockets in cupboards with no overswitch

Sir Arthur Daley

Do DP switches have more advantages than disadvantages instead of having a socket in a press?

Advantages:

1. Can very easily isolate power to the socket supplying the appliance.

Disadvantages:

1. Appliance will need to be moved out to access the socket and plug top.
2. Appliance may not sit back to its desired position due to thickness of socket face and plug.
3. Cost of installation of DP switch.
4. Having your splash back destroyed with DP switches.

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Do DP switches have more advantages than disadvantages instead of having a socket in a press?

Advantages:

1. Can very easily isolate power to the socket supplying the appliance.

Disadvantages:

1. Appliance will need to be moved out to access the socket and plug top.
2. Appliance may not sit back to its desired position due to thickness of socket face and plug.
3. Cost of installation of DP switch.
4. Having your splash back destroyed with DP switches.

you don't put them behind,like you say they may not even fit

you put them undersink etc

and fit isolating swirch

Andy From Sligo

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

you don't put them behind,like you say they may not even fit

you put them undersink etc

and fit isolating swirch

if under sink or counter if you have a leak from sink or spill some liquid on the counter top then its could easily leak onto socket underneath counter top... mid you I suppose you could argue that if you had the dishwasher under a counter top and you spilt liquid onto the counter top that could also drip underneath onto the dishwasher or washing machine. The white sealent around the worktop could stop the water seeping to under the worktop i suppose if the sealant was sound. But no, I think on the whole I'd rather have my sockets and fused spurs and DP's above counter top myself in the kitchen as first preference.