difference in electrics between UK & Ireland

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

there's a rcbo on top row of board

Hard to see, however it is clearly labeled "RCD" and Andy states that he has no RCBOs.

A better / closer photo would help.

Andy From Sligo

2011 wrote: »

In that case do have some form of over current protection for your shower?
This is normally achieved with an MCB or fuse. RCDs unlike RCBOs do not provide over current protection.

Over current scenarios occur in ways:
1) Overload
2) Short circuit

It is very important (and a regulation) that all mains voltage cabling is protected from over current conditions.

Ah right so my mistake. it has MCB/RCD .. so I guess that makes it a RCBO ? - is that right?

Hard to tell if the electrician who wrote on the label put 'RCD' or 'RCB'

Andy From Sligo

So the C40 on the shower RCD/MCB must mean 40amp MCB and is the ian= 0.03a means that its a 30ma trip RCD?

2011

:eek:

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

So the C40 on the shower RCD/MCB must mean 40amp MCB and is the ian= 0.03a means that its a 30ma trip RCD?

Yes.

On another note if I were you I would change out the switch fuse arrangement that you have for a modern combined unit.
I have seen the arrangement that you have go on fire :eek:

Bruthal

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

not so much that but if moisture/condensation got into the fitting you'd want it to trip - I think it would trip a RCD but would it trip an MCB? I doubt it, I could be wrong though

If any got in, its very unlikely it would end up between L & E anyway. That usually happens from water leaking into light fittings from above.

If it did trip, the bathroom would be more dangerous when dark, than the risk of shock from ceiling lights.

All circuits might eventually be required on RCBOs possibly.

Andy From Sligo

2011 wrote: »

:eek:

Yes.

On another note if I were you I would change out the switch fuse arrangement that you have for a modern combined unit.
I have seen the arrangement that you have go on fire :eek:

oh blimey! , right I will pass that onto our landlord because we rent this place - we are moving out in June, but I will tell him so he knows for the next tennants!!

Andy From Sligo

Bruthal wrote: »

If any got in, its very unlikely it would end up between L & E anyway. That usually happens from water leaking into light fittings from above.

If it did trip, the bathroom would be more dangerous when dark, than the risk of shock from ceiling lights.

All circuits might eventually be required on RCBOs possibly.

Maybe all places should be fitted out with miniature emergency light on the ceiling about the size of a smoke alarm and just run on batteries with a photo-cell in so if lights go off/trip your not in the dark...... but then again how do you turn them off when you WANT the room dark, that's the thing?

tomdempsey200

for commercial

you have to gave a backup in case the rcbo trips

last time I looked

originally domestic premises needed it but that was amended

Bruthal

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Maybe all places should be fitted out with miniature emergency light on the ceiling about the size of a smoke alarm and just run on batteries with a photo-cell in so if lights go off/trip your not in the dark...... but then again how do you turn them off when you WANT the room dark, that's the thing?

Emergency lights have a permanent feed from the same mcb as the lights in the area that the emergency ones are fitted in. Breaker trips, or a power cut, and emergency lights come on. Reset breaker, they go off. Permanent supply keeps the batteries charged.

Only used in commercial premises though.

Tuco88

Bruthal wrote: »

Emergency lights have a permanent feed from the same mcb as the lights.

Unless you order a panel from a well known panel building company in Galway... There kind enough to use another mcb even from a different phase for your convenience for the emergency supply, Thus giving a healthy 400v at each emergency fitting. Only at the small cost of spending the day re-wiring contacters/panels that you might has well have built yourself...

tomdempsey200

Tuco88 wrote: »

Bruthal wrote: »

Emergency lights have a permanent feed from the same mcb as the lights.

Unless you order a panel from a well known panel building company in Galway... There kind enough to use another mcb even from a different phase for your convenience for the emergency supply, Thus giving a healthy 400v at each emergency fitting. Only at the small cost of spending the day re-wiring contacters/panels that you might has well have built yourself...

the ones I worked on used n/o contacts fed from each corresponding lighting mcb

EL test button opens all contacts

the person assembling the panel should have confirmed that the contacts matched up to the corresponding mcbs

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

the ones I worked on used n/o contacts fed from each corresponding lighting mcb

EL test button opens all contacts

the person assembling the panel should have confirmed that the contacts matched up to the corresponding mcbs

I would expect NC contacts to be used. That way a failure of the contactor(s) or CTU to energize the contactor(s) would not result in loss of the permanent supply to any of the emergency lights.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

I would expect NC contacts to be used. That way a failure of the contactor(s) or CTU to energize the contactor(s) would not result in loss of the permanent supply to any of the emergency lights.

sorry yes
wrong way round
they're n/c.. contactors normally de-energized

Bruthal

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

Tuco88 wrote: »

the ones I worked on used n/o contacts fed from each corresponding lighting mcb

EL test button opens all contacts

the person assembling the panel should have confirmed that the contacts matched up to the corresponding mcbs

Yea contactors with NC contacts, with the contactors controlled with a 30 minute and 3 hour timer type setup, but I was not going to go into all that, just the fact about how emergency lights come on and go off during normal operation.

NC contacts for contactor de-energised normal operation, for better fail safe setup.

Andy From Sligo

2011 wrote: »

:eek:

Yes.

On another note if I were you I would change out the switch fuse arrangement that you have for a modern combined unit.
I have seen the arrangement that you have go on fire :eek:

Got into the house we are going to rent and took a pic of the fusebox and look, its the same fusebox arrangement of the house we are in at the moment. Does this mean it is a dangerous set up and can also go on fire? :-(

Also I dont think that breaker 'outside' is RCD or RCBO as well is it?, just a MCB in that unit isnt it by the looks of it, same with the shower it just looks like its a MCB not an RCBO

tomdempsey200

i have the same hager neozed fuse unit 15 yrs myself

I'm not aware of any issues( assuming fuse and connections are tight) and have no concerns

the mcb is ok but can be swooped for an rcbo

2011

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Got into the house we are going to rent and took a pic of the fusebox and look, its the same fusebox arrangement of the house we are in at the moment. Does this mean it is a dangerous set up and can also go on fire? :-(

What you are looking at here is an isolator connected in series with a fuse.
The two are units are typically liked together with a factory piece of 10 sq. mm flexible cable. On quite a few occasions this cable has failed. Some of these devices were recalled, I can not remember which make. Either way my advice would be to replace with the more modern combined unit. This does not require the "link" cable.

Also I dont think that breaker 'outside' is RCD or RCBO as well is it?

From the photo it looks like an MCB.

2011

Here is an example of the type of failure that I described.

2011

I can't seem to find the link, but this is a quote from the ECSSA newsletter a number of years ago:

You will recall that a few years ago the Director of Consumer Affairs issued advertisement in national newspapers indicating the type of switch fuse that were banned due to being a fire hazard. It is alarming that some of these unit's are still in service.

The units concerned may be identified as follows,
EEC D02 63A AC 22B
Gould 5861.063 DO63A AC22
Lindner 5861.063 DO 63A AC22
NES UE 440V 63A
REGIS OSLF 63 1P
Hi 240V/415V-63A
Hi DO2 63A 5.5W ac 22B

Remember if you do any work in an installation that includes any of the above, even if you did not install it in the first instance you, as the professional who should have noticed it, could be held liable for any damage that might occur at later date.

SpaceTime

The big differences between the UK and Ireland on electrical systems in domestic premises are :

1) RCDs on sockets were introduced here quite a long time ago. The UK has gone from one extreme to the other no RCDs to RCDs on most circuits.

2) Ireland tends to use mostly radial circuits in most installations. The UK almost always uses rings for sockets. We don't even allow rings in kitchens anymore. So our wiring's probably a little more like modern continental European systems.

3) Ireland requires a main fuse on the distribution board - the UK doesn't.

4) Older installations in Ireland use German-style diazed or neozed cartridge fuses, the UK tended to use very primitive rewirable fuses where fuse wire's basically connected between two terminals on a porcelain thing. You had to 'mend' the fuse yourself.

Overall, I'd actually think the Irish system was a lot safer than the UK one over the years, but the UK one has now leapfrogged us by adding RCBOs to everything.

Belgium and France now also have RCDs on almost all circuits. They tend to use a split panel with multiple RCDs.

Sir Arthur Daley

SpaceTime wrote: »

3) Ireland requires a main fuse on the distribution board - the UK doesn't.

This requirement has changed with quiet some time now, main switch only in DB.

Andy From Sligo

SpaceTime wrote: »

The big differences between the UK and Ireland on electrical systems in domestic premises are :

2) Ireland tends to use mostly radial circuits in most installations. The UK almost always uses rings for sockets. We don't even allow rings in kitchens anymore. So our wiring's probably a little more like modern continental European systems.

I'm not an electrician but I'd choose Ring mains over Radial all the time - its only logical isnt it, sure it requires more cable/wiring but you share the load over the wires and if you get a break in the wires up one end of the sockets the other sockets carry on working.

Sir Arthur Daley

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I'm not an electrician but I'd choose Ring mains over Radial all the time - its only logical isnt it, sure it requires more cable/wiring but you share the load over the wires and if you get a break in the wires up one end of the sockets the other sockets carry on working.

The problem there with a break in a wire is a 32 amp mcb protecting a 2.5sq instead of a 5sq effectively if the ring was sound. There is nothing stopping putting a 20amp mcb on a ring.
Ring main sockets actually use less cabling over radials. I still use ring main with the exception of the use of a ring in the kitchen.

Andy From Sligo

SpaceTime wrote: »

The big differences between the UK and Ireland on electrical systems in domestic premises are :

3) Ireland requires a main fuse on the distribution board - the UK doesn't.

Would you still need a fuse + Switch on the board? - why not just a 80a Mains double pole switch 60 or 80 amp breaker or a 60 or 80 amp RCBO (if such existed or a 60 or 80a Breaker next to 80a (so much M.a.) RCD - is there any need for a bottle ceramic fuse or rewireable one if you have a 60 or 80a MCB? - then you have the massive 80a Fuse in the meter box as well of course, (which im predicting is fuse wire inside in a bakelite brown/black holder across to terminals like the old replaceable fuse wire or massive cartridge fuse what you get in a plug only more massive), except for I know with that one in the outside meter box it has fiddle tag as I call it so ESB can see if you have tampered with the fuse.

Andy From Sligo

come to think of it the meter in the outside meter box has an 80a fuse ... but if the meter had a fault / short in it that would not most probably overload to 80+ amps so what happens then? the meter could effectively burn out and go on fire couldn't it? - its like the same with my MCB's in the board for the lights is 10a for downstairs and 10a for upstairs if one light at 60w shorted out wouldnt that be like putting a 13a fuse in a plug of an 60w table lamp when your supposed to use a 3amp fuse in the plug for a 60w lamp? - so really 10a MCB if you had one 60w lamp on, how does that work out to protect the circuit? - or am i thinking too much?

Andy From Sligo

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

... I still use ring main with the exception of the use of a ring in the kitchen.

thanks for the answer. Why exception of the use of ring mains in the kitchen? - just curious like.

Sir Arthur Daley

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thanks for the answer. Why exception of the use of ring mains in the kitchen? - just curious like.

One reason is that its the one part of the house that potentially has big loading from appliances and back to the scenario of where a break in a wire may occur which brings its risks.

Andy From Sligo

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

One reason is that its the one part of the house that potentially has big loading from appliances and back to the scenario of where a break in a wire may occur which brings its risks.

ah yes, right, thanks for that ...

Sir Arthur Daley

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ah yes, right, thanks for that ...

Back to your other query of fusing, the pratice now is to mount an enclosure in the meter box and within that enclosure is a main switch/fuse unit, the consumer tails gets fused through this, this has done away with the main switch/fuse unit in DB, all you have now is a main switch/MCB to isolate the power to the DB.
The main switch unit also plays a role as in the event of a fire and when the fire brigade arrive on scene one of the first things in their protocol is to isolate power and the main switch/fuse unit they would use. Seconds matter in the event of a fire and having that in the cabinet saves time instead of them running back to the truck for tools to cut seals to pull the esb fuse.

Andy From Sligo

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

... Seconds matter in the event of a fire and having that in the cabinet saves time instead of them running back to the truck for tools to cut seals to pull the esb fuse.

yes, indeed!