New Building Control Regs

martinn123

4Sticks wrote: »

How about "The Law Society" and their "advice" to professionals not to act for self builders. Perhaps you disdain them too.

Need a link to the Law Society Advice there please, and while you are at it, perhaps a Cartoon featuring Michael Lynn, and Thomas Byrne, former paid up members.

mandy gall

QUOTE=BryanF;90361181]It thought it was the fault of the bullish cowboy from North Kilkenny? When did the CIF become the instigators.


The Bulllish Cowboy and the rest of the top notches in the CIF have done the deal which has erased self builders BUT I don't hear any members of the CIF raising their voices in protest of such an unfair law - 'when you are silent when people are oppressed - you have taken the side of the oppressor' - In fact I bet the members of CIF are all rubbing their hands together, thinking of all the cash to come - what these 'builders' don't realise is that a self build home will never ever exist if we are forced to hire them...we do not need the services of anyone that does the exact same thing as us.
It is Hogan who has involved the CIF...they would never have been on the self builders 'radar' if it wasn't for the S.I. 9 disaster..

4Sticks

@ Martin 123

Need to know if you now will actively participate as assigned builder a role you warmly embraced a few posts back.as a solution to self builders.

Or is that just for others to do ?

martinn123

4Sticks wrote: »

@ Martin 123

Need to know if you now will actively participate as assigned builder a role you warmly embraced a few posts back.as a solution to self builders.

Or is that just for others to do ?

Why do you '' Need'' to know.

A warm embrace......strange description of a contribution to a debate,........No Dissent in the Ranks, is it.

My business, as you do know, is 100% in the Sub-40SqM arena, ( indeed sub 25 SqM I am exempt from all building regulations.)
should the need arise, following on from any of my comments here, my answer would be yes, but I do not see that happening to be honest, as it's not an area where I get business,

However having been a Self -Builder, again as you know, I do feel competent, if not embraced, to post on this subject.

Any Yourself..........will you be participating as an Assigned Certyfer.

4Sticks

martinn123 wrote: »

Why do you '' Need'' to know.

Well you keep calling for professionals to take legal responsibility for actions and inaction of others. Now that the option seems available to you will go there yourself?

martinn123 wrote: »

My business, as you do know, is 100% in the Sub-40SqM arena, ( indeed sub 25 SqM I am exempt from all building regulations.)should the need arise, following on from any of my comments here, my answer would be yes, but I do not see that happening to be honest, as it's not an area where I get business, However having been a Self -Builder, again as you know, I do feel competent, if not embraced, to post on this subject.

Your answer is .... That's a no from a hurler on the ditch.

martinn123 wrote: »

Any Yourself..........will you be participating as an Assigned Certyfer.

I am not one of the holy trinity - so I can't.

But like PUT - if I could do I would not. My opinion is that one would need to charge more than the customer would be willing to pay.

martinn123

4Sticks wrote: »

Your answer is .... That's a no from a hurler on the ditch.

I did not know you had to be a member of some Club or other to post here,

4Sticks wrote:

I am not one of the holy trinity - so I can't.

This ditch is getting crowded.

Penn

4Sticks and martinn123, enough of the sly digs at each other. Discuss the topic civilly or not at all.

4Sticks

I think me and martin123 understand each now and for a little while longer too

martinn123

Well, having listened to Mandy, just now on ''Liveline'' I have to say she got her point across with regard to Self - Building being ''Illegal'', with regard to signing the Offending Document.

The fact that 2 past presidents of RIAI, who the show lined up, agreed with her, nailed that one for me.

The CIF conspiracy theory she did not nail, as their take is that the Dept, forgot, about Self Builds while drafting the Legislation, I would go along with that now as well.

So we will see what the intervention of Mr Duffy will have on this particular part of the debate.

The issues regarding Certifying, Fees etc, are still out there, and while I will concede to Mandy on the Illegal Issue, my views with regard to other aspects of this Legislation, remain to be convinced.

My posts have been in relation to Self- Build only, and should not be quoted, cut & pasted, or misinterpreted in relation to any other aspect of this Topic.

mandy gall

martinn123 wrote: »

Well, having listened to Mandy, just now on ''Liveline'' I have to say she got her point across with regard to Self - Building being ''Illegal'', with regard to signing the Offending Document.

The fact that 2 past presidents of RIAI, who the show lined up, agreed with her, nailed that one for me.

The CIF conspiracy theory she did not nail, as their take is that the Dept, forgot, about Self Builds while drafting the Legislation, I would go along with that now as well.

So we will see what the intervention of Mr Duffy will have on this particular part of the debate.

The issues regarding Certifying, Fees etc, are still out there, and while I will concede to Mandy on the Illegal Issue, my views with regard to other aspects of this Legislation, remain to be convinced.

My posts have been in relation to Self- Build only, and should not be quoted, cut & pasted, or misinterpreted in relation to any other aspect of this Topic.

Thank you Martin123..we will see how this whole thing unravels - I love a good conspiracy theory

4Sticks

martinn123 wrote: »

The CIF conspiracy theory she did not nail, as their take is that the Dept, forgot, about Self Builds while drafting the Legislation, I would go along with that now as well.

My own pet theory is that the Dept of Finance hands are all over this. They believe they will yield more taxes this way.

mandy gall

4Sticks wrote: »

My own pet theory is that the Dept of Finance hands are all over this. They believe they will yield more taxes this way.

I will check the SI 9 for Noonan's prints...:rolleyes:

4Sticks

Well no one will see the hands of the Law Society there as they were not asked to participate. Odd given they will be routinely dealing with issues arising.

See http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/law-society-response-to-self-builders/comment-page-1/

The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government excluded representatives from the solicitors’ profession from the consultation process by the Department of Environment, and our profession had no role in the policy underlying the regulations or either the process or the forms required.

See here for among other things the LS general advice to would be certifiers in the case of self builds

Doing so will clearly increase the risk for the architect, engineer or surveyor and such professionals would be best advised not to undertake such a role in this sort of situation

4Sticks

martinn123 wrote: »

The consensus here seems to be to turn away the work, but someone is doing it.

In ever decreasing numbers

The latest figures above in 2014 represent a -74% drop in actual recorded building activity when compared to the average last year.

source

martinn123

4Sticks wrote: »

In ever decreasing numbers



source

To be fair, you should quote this as well,

This could be explained by,
The rush to lodge commencement notices before the 1st March 2014 deadline although these notices will have expired if building works have not yet commenced. There is little evidence emerging of Building Control Authorities policing this situation in any proactive manner.

4Sticks

This is the concluding statement and the essence of the report

We reported on this trend for March in a previous post and suggested if this did not reverse quickly there would be significant issues for the construction industry. The current surge in commencements due to the January and February rush to beat the implementation date deadline would be short lived. The preliminary numbers for the first half of May (50 commencements only) suggest this worrying trend will continue.

Are you saying works in Ireland are progressing unaffected by these changes ?

If you are on what basis do you say that?

.

martinn123

4Sticks wrote: »

This is the concluding statement and the essence of the report



Are you saying works in Ireland are progressing unaffected by these changes ?

If you are on what basis do you say that?

.

Good God, where do you get that idea from,

No I was merely pointing out that selective quotation, can give a particular viewpoint, or indeed, cut & paste, add a word here, delete a word there, can paint anything in a certain light, depending on an agenda.

So I am not saying works are unaffected, I believe I actually asked

Originally Posted by martinn123
The consensus here seems to be to turn away the work, but someone is doing it.

My point being unless it's a COMPLETE. Stop, of which there is no evidence! then someone is progressing works under there Regs. I wonder who?.

mandy gall

martinn123 wrote: »

My point being unless it's a COMPLETE. Stop, of which there is no evidence! then someone is progressing works under there Regs. I wonder who?.

FOOLS....

martinn123

mandy gall wrote: »

FOOLS....

You could be right, indeed as I have conceded, you probably are.

Attitudes on this topic are either Black or White, mainly Black, I am just trying to discover if anyone has found a middle ground, hence my question, has all Construction ceased, completely under these Regs.

For the Self Build it appears a simple change to the wording of the Offending Cert, would sort out that issue, and I wonder why that has not happened, yet, surely it will.

The Assigned Certification issue, Fees ,etc, will take a little longer, no doubt, once the " illegal " issue is sorted.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

You could be right, indeed as I have conceded, you probably are.

Attitudes on this topic are either Black or White, mainly Black, I am just trying to discover if anyone has found a middle ground, hence my question, has all Construction ceased, completely under these Regs.

For the Self Build it appears a simple change to the wording of the Offending Cert, would sort out that issue, and I wonder why that has not happened, yet, surely it will.

The Assigned Certification issue, Fees ,etc, will take a little longer, no doubt, once the " illegal " issue is sorted.

some architects who would have been providing a "full service" which would have included an element of supervision are seeing the amendments as just a bit of an administration inconvenience. this is because the service they provide would already encompass most if not all of what SI9 demands. therefore these jobs would continue as normal.

however, these are architect who would be on a percentage of the tender price and be working as part of a larger design team. They would typically not be for one off rural homes, and most definitely not be typical for self builds.
Id venture as far to say that these would generally be commercial non domestic type jobs.

mandy gall

Yes Martin123 - my own feeling is that the S.I. 9 will have to be dropped altogether - it is already starting to unravel and will accelerate over the coming weeks - the Collins & O'Cofaigh - a Better Way system is fab - have you read it? Google Bregs Forum and you will find it. There can be no 'reasonable' reason why Minister cannot implement this..it resolves every single issue that lies within S.I.9 - let me know what you think if you read it...
Has anyone ever seen a law to cause so much confusion and hurt?

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

some architects who would have been providing a "full service" which would have included an element of supervision are seeing the amendments as just a bit of an administration inconvenience. this is because the service they provide would already encompass most if not all of what SI9 demands. therefore these jobs would continue as normal.

.

OK, so please clarify,please, in that situation, how does the " how can I certify the electrical work used the right parts , I have to examine every nail driven " arguments apply, if it's just a bit of an administration inconvenience. An element of supervision, is far from the doomsday, " I have to be on site all day supervising " comments I have been reading since this debate began.

If these jobs can continue as normal with the new regs. Thanks.

Gumbo

The rush to lodge commencement notices before the 1st March 2014 deadline although these notices will have expired if building works have not yet commenced. There is little evidence emerging of Building Control Authorities policing this situation in any proactive manner.

Source - http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/05/14/commencement-notices-fall-bcar-si-9/

Obviously the author of that piece has not done their homework and check if BCA's are actively policing this issue.

ryan101

kceire wrote: »

Source - http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/05/14/commencement-notices-fall-bcar-si-9/

Obviously the author of that piece has not done their homework and check if BCA's are actively policing this issue.

You don't understand Irish government mentality. Lots of complicated inoperable contradictory regulations and no enforcement. A Cowboy's dream, and a legit operators nightmare. It is impossible to compete with the cowboys at all levels in the Irish Construction Industry. In 20 years we went from an industry with with no regulations and chocked full of cowboys, to an industry crammed with regulations and just as many cowboys. Self certification my ass. It has never worked and it never will, because he who pays the piper calls the tune, and if one piper won't play it, there is always another cheaper piper around the corner willing to play whatever tune you want. Can you imagine the mess and threat to road safety if the NCT was a certification process just between the owner, the mechanic ,and the garage ? With the odd 1 in 10,000 spot check by the state ?

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

OK, so please clarify,please, in that situation, how does the " how can I certify the electrical work used the right parts , I have to examine every nail driven " arguments apply, if it's just a bit of an administration inconvenience. An element of supervision, is far from the doomsday, " I have to be on site all day supervising " comments I have been reading since this debate began.

If these jobs can continue as normal with the new regs. Thanks.

Prefabricated systems, modular coordination, specialist mechanical and electrical trades, detailed specialist design and specification. Individual indemnified specialist engagements.


All the things you don't get with a handyman with a 4x4 and a nokia phone

Gumbo

ryan101 wrote: »

You don't understand Irish government mentality. Lots of complicated inoperable contradictory regulations and no enforcement. A Cowboy's dream, and a legit operators nightmare. It is impossible to compete with the cowboys at all levels in the Irish Construction Industry.

Ohh believe me, I know. Let's just say in this instance, I'm the one policing it. And 10 expired CN's have been issued this week alone

ryan101

kceire wrote: »

Ohh believe me, I know. Let's just say in this instance, I'm the one policing it. And 10 expired CN's have been issued this week alone

My sympathies then. Fair play, and keep it up, but a drop in the ocean for the rest of us.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

Prefabricated systems, modular coordination, specialist mechanical and electrical trades, detailed specialist design and specification. Individual indemnified specialist engagements.


All the things you don't get with a handyman with a 4x4 and a nokia phone

Jaysus that sounds fierce complicated, glad I went for a Samsung.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Jaysus that sounds fierce complicated, glad I went for a Samsung.

Once it doesn't have to measure beyond 25sq m you'll be grand.

4Sticks

martinn123 wrote: »

OK, so please clarify,please, in that situation, how does the " how can I certify the electrical work used the right parts , I have to examine every nail driven " arguments apply, if it's just a bit of an administration inconvenience. An element of supervision, is far from the doomsday, " I have to be on site all day supervising " comments I have been reading since this debate began.

If these jobs can continue as normal with the new regs. Thanks.

Multiple choice question

In the non self build sector where large contractors staff up with educated professionals dedicated to complying with regulations , a certifier has

a) less
b) more

to worry about when signing off

In the self build sector where non contractors don't staff up with educated professionals dedicated to complying with regulations , a certifier has

a) less
b) more

to worry about when signing off