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There is a thread in AH that is allowing offensive language about women

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    #122
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Dades wrote: »
    From the AH thread's OP:
    Self-defense or not, I don't see how this question could be see as incitement to violence, so that complaint is a complete red herring.

    Again I'll state I am not (and I'm pretty sure nobody else is) making a complaint that the OP is an incitement to violence.

    My posts in relation to the charter were about what specifically is covered in the charter in relation to advocating violence.

    There really is an us and them/for and against mentality in these threads. Is its that inconceivable I may be just discussing and aspect of how these things are dealt with rather than nit picking and campaigning to have the thread shut down ?


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    #123
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Dades wrote: »
    From the AH thread's OP:
    Self-defense or not, I don't see how this question could be see as incitement to violence, so that complaint is a complete red herring.

    Artful Badger's comments over the last few posts have been rather general as opposed to towards the thread in question here. I believe he's also trying to understand how discussion of violence is supposed to be delivered in AH overall in light of what the charter states.

    It's not really that much of a red herring, just a slight tangent.


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    #124
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    When other more civilised ways of diffusing the situation dont work. He could have pushed her back, grabbed her, stood between her and his friend, waited for the bouncer (This was in the middle of a dance floor).

    The OP admitted himself he got angry and acted in retaliation. Whatever about having sympathy its not justifiable in my book to lash out and punch people when you get angry. It wasnt ok for the girl who hit the OP's friend and it wasnt ok for him to do it.

    And how long would it take for a bouncer to get from whatever point of the club he is stationed to the middle of the dancefloor? How long does it take before he see's a fight?

    Unless you have been trained or are used to dealing with violent situations then you instantly have a choice of fight or flight. It's easy to say he could have done this that or the other but unless you are in this situation (and something tells me you haven't been in this situation in a long time if ever) then you never know what your reaction will be.


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    #125
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    In the thread in question, it wasn't self-defence. You don't have to think too hard about it either, just read sections 18 and 20 of the non-fatal offences against the person act. Self-defence of another person only applies to family members, not friends, and reasonable force is not "dropping the fat cnut like the twin towers".
    That's just pigeon chested bravado that displays a clear ignorance of the law, especially when the OP had a means to escape any immediate threat, so the use of force wasn't reasonable either.

    So if i see someone being assaulted on the street it would be illegal for me to intervene?:confused:


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    #126
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    It's not really that much of a red herring, just a slight tangent.
    To clarify then it's a red herring in relation to the thread in question. I'm sure a tangential discussion is worthwhile elsewhere. :)


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    #127
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    bumper234 wrote: »
    And how long would it take for a bouncer to get from whatever point of the club he is stationed to the middle of the dancefloor? How long does it take before he see's a fight?

    Unless you have been trained or are used to dealing with violent situations then you instantly have a choice of fight or flight. It's easy to say he could have done this that or the other but unless you are in this situation (and something tells me you haven't been in this situation in a long time if ever) then you never know what your reaction will be.

    Thats just not true. I've been in that situation with a guy who attacked my male friend. I didnt lose it and start swinging, I grabbed him and pushed him back and stood in his way to make sure he couldn't hit my friend again. I have absolutely no training in such matters.

    Had it been a female who attacked my female friend I'd have done the exact same thing. And I've seen it several times with guys breaking up fights between male and female friends. No swinging punches because their friends were hit, just an interest in diffusing the situation and protecting their friends.


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    #128
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So if i see someone being assaulted on the street it would be illegal for me to intervene?:confused:

    No. Czarcasm has selectively quoted the act there, as pointed out by another poster. The act does provide for defending others.

    Punching generally wouldn't be considered defending though except in extreme circumstances.


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    #129
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    No. Czarcasm has selectively quoted the act there, as pointed out by another poster. The act does provide for defending others.

    Punching generally wouldn't be considered defending though except in extreme circumstances.

    How is reasonable force determined in such situations ?


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    #130
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    How is reasonable force determined in such situations ?

    That seems to be another grey area, one persons reasonable is another persons excessive.


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    #131
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    bumper234 wrote: »
    That seems to be another grey area, one persons reasonable is another persons excessive.

    Must be clarified somewhat in relation to the law though if reasonable force is mentioned in relation to defence/assault.


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    #132
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    Must be clarified somewhat in relation to the law though if reasonable force is mentioned in relation to defence/assault.

    If someone was attacking an old lady and you push that person over would be considered reasonable force, If that person bangs their head and dies does that make it excessive?

    I have seen people get criminal records for grabbing a (drunk and violent) girl by the arm because when she screamed assault the guards followed up on it. She had slight bruising on her upper arm where she had been held and this was deemed by the judge to be excessive force. The fact she had hit one doorman with a stool across the back of the head was neither here nor there.

    I was charged with assault after i hit someone several times (all caught on camera) because he had bit me on the upper arm. The judge watched the video evidence and then looked at the pictures of my arm where i had been bitten He then said i should have hit him some more to teach him a lesson.

    As i said one persons reasonable is another persons excessive.


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    #133
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,712 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    How is reasonable force determined in such situations ?
    That is exactly the question being asked in the AH thread, even if it's not put that way.

    From a legal perspective, there is a nobody-knows aspect to the self-defence aspect of the NFOAPA. Even though there was a restatement after the Padraig McNally case, it's still probably one of the most uncertain aspects of criminal law.

    Unfortunately, even if you are successful in raising the defence, you must have been prosecuted in order to do so and that is punishment in itself, imo.


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    #134
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    No. Czarcasm has selectively quoted the act there, as pointed out by another poster. The act does provide for defending others.

    Punching generally wouldn't be considered defending though except in extreme circumstances.


    Diego I was only citing from memory, as I didn't think we'd have the rules lawyers in trying to interpret black and white letter law. That's why much as I'd love to sometimes, I can't kick seven bells out of a someone for beating another person. I can only restrain them until the Gardaí arrive on the scene, or I can assist the person being assaulted in getting away from immediate danger.

    Even if I stay there and restrain the person, then I myself am contravening the act as it's written in black and white, but it's up to the Gardai immediately on the scene to decide whether the level of force I applied in restraining the person was reasonable force.

    That's the difference in being morally justified self-defence, and legally justified self-defence. Every scenario is dependent on a number of factors involved, so you can't argue the legality of a situation without being privy to the full facts of each and every case.

    Just as an example of, well, a more light hearted scenario, here's an example of a recent incident where I misinterpreted the actions of the individuals involved, but still my first instinct was to call the Gardai before I made any attempt to restrain the persons involved -

    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I was just walking home there and saw what I thought were a couple of lads gathered round two lads fighting on the ground. I stood to assess the situation for a minute before I said to myself"ahh here, he's getting killed", told the young lad call the Gardaí as I ran up to break it up. Next thing I saw the boom microphone and the two lads got up off the ground...

    Damned actors, turned out they were only filming a fight scene! :mad:

    *shuffled awkwardly away*, red faces all round, young lad breaking his hole laughing :o


    Now while that was fortunately only a trivial misunderstanding of the situation, I've been involved in far more serious incidents where the violence was all too real, and I didn't go starting any threads looking to be hailed a hero for committing assault against another person, because not only do I hold myself to a higher standard, but I would also like to think After Hours has a higher standard than being seen to celebrate or endorse violent behavior. If a poster needs that sort of validation, there are any number of other sites on the internet besides Boards.ie where they can go to get it.


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    #135
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,703 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    humanji wrote: »
    And specifically because The Backwards Man reported the post, and brought it to my attention.

    So much for those who report a post remaining confidential....


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    #136
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    So much for those who report a post remaining confidential....

    When reported they go to a forum every mod can see. They're not confidential.


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    #137
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,703 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    When reported they go to a forum every mod can see. They're not confidential.

    Where can I view this forum?

    I can't, because I'm not a mod.


    That makes it confidential to me.


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    #138
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    So much for those who report a post remaining confidential....
    In fairness my bringing it up on this thread probably waves my right to anonymity. What's the first question they always ask you here whenever you complain about a particular post?

    'Did you report it?'


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    #139
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,703 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    In fairness my bringing it up on this thread probably waves my right to anonymity. What's the first question they always ask you here whenever you complain about a particular post?

    'Did you report it?'
    Fair point.

    And if you fail to answer, it's pretty much a mortal wound to your argument.


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    #140
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    In fairness my bringing it up on this thread probably waves my right to anonymity. What's the first question they always ask you here whenever you complain about a particular post?

    'Did you report it?'

    Im failing to see the point of reporting threads or posts tbh.

    More often than not nothing at all happens so you wonder if anyone even saw your report.


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    #141
    Felexicon
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    Why is it always women that are outraged?


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    #142
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Felexicon wrote: »
    Why is it always women that are outraged?


    Why must you equate raising an objection to something as 'outrage', when it's clear from reading any of the posts made here that there are reasonable arguments being made from everyone involved and nobody is expressing any 'outrage'.

    It's not only women objecting to what they see as celebrating violence btw, there are plenty of men who don't condone the use of violence in conflict resolution and see "eye for an eye" justice as something that shouldn't be encouraged, regardless of the gender of the perpetrator or the victim, regardless of their age, though as adults they would be expected to know better and are therefore held to a higher standard by the law.


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    #143
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Why must you equate raising an objection to something as 'outrage', when it's clear from reading any of the posts made here that there are reasonable arguments being made from everyone involved and nobody is expressing any 'outrage'.

    It's not only women objecting to what they see as celebrating violence btw, there are plenty of men who don't condone the use of violence in conflict resolution and see "eye for an eye" justice as something that shouldn't be encouraged, regardless of the gender of the perpetrator or the victim, regardless of their age, though as adults they would be expected to know better and are therefore held to a higher standard by the law.

    Probably better to just report troll posts like that :pac:


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    #144
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    green_screen wrote: »
    Probably better to just report troll posts like that :pac:

    Back seat modding!!

    Oh **** now i have done it too :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


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    #145
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    username123 wrote: »
    Im failing to see the point of reporting threads or posts tbh.

    More often than not nothing at all happens so you wonder if anyone even saw your report.

    There's more chance of someone seeing a reported post, than seeing the post in question if it goes by unreported.


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    #146
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    There's more chance of someone seeing a reported post, than seeing the post in question if it goes by unreported.

    Yes but its frustrating for posters who have bothered to report something that absolutely no notification is given as to whether or not anything was or should be done. Which leads to general apathy on reporting posts imo.


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    #147
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    username123 wrote: »
    Yes but its frustrating for posters who have bothered to report something that absolutely no notification is given as to whether or not anything was or should be done. Which leads to general apathy on reporting posts imo.

    So should mods pm every person who reports a post i forming them of action taken (if any)? Don't think increasing the mods workload like that would go down too well tbh.


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    #148
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Felexicon wrote: »
    Why is it always women that are outraged?

    I'm not a woman


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    #149
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So should mods pm every person who reports a post i forming them of action taken (if any)? Don't think increasing the mods workload like that would go down too well tbh.

    Sometimes its obvious that action has been taken (yellow or red card or a mod comment on thread) but there seems to be no way to distinguish between an infraction (ie, not a yellow or red card) and no action. Theres also no way to distinguish between no action because no action was deemed necessary, and no action because no one has seen the report.

    Im not sure of the best way around it tbh.


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    #150
    Vito Corleone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭Vito Corleone


    These are the threads that make me despise this over sensitive, sanctimonious world so much. I hope you're happy.


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    #151
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Vito Corleone wrote: »
    These are the threads that make me despise this over sensitive, sanctimonious world so much. I hope you're happy.

    The same people would probably be the first to start threads complaining how no one stepped in to help if they got attacked.


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