Driving in the middle lane

djimi

corktina wrote: »

Can you imagine the chaos without this rule? It would give carte blanche to even more people to hog the overtaking lane and you'd have people weaving in and out, constantly having to switch lane to under- and overtake

It would be more or less exactly as it is now in fairness, except there might be a better flow in the traffic as people would not hesitate to pass on the left.

corktina

djimi wrote: »

It would be more or less exactly as it is now in fairness, except there might be a better flow in the traffic as people would not hesitate to pass on the left.

No it wouldn't because now most people respect the Law and don't undertake. If it were legal, everyone would be doing it...Giant Slalom style

Zubeneschamali

djimi wrote: »

It would be more or less exactly as it is now in fairness, except there might be a better flow in the traffic as people would not hesitate to pass on the left.

It would be exactly what the M50 and its approaches are now.

Going to Dublin on the M6/M4, the muppetry starts immediately after the last tollgate.

Please let's not turn all our other motorways into the M50.

djimi

corktina wrote: »

No it wouldn't because now most people respect the Law and don't undertake. If it were legal, everyone would be doing it...Giant Slalom style

Its not my experience that most people respect the law; both poor lane discipline and undertaking is absolutely rife on any road that I regularly drive on. Drive the N7/M7 any day and you would never think to look at it that it was the law to either drive on the left or pass on the right.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

corktina wrote: »

Can you imagine the chaos without this rule? It would give carte blanche to even more people to hog the overtaking lane and you'd have people weaving in and out, constantly having to switch lane to under- and overtake

As djimi rightly said, this mentality here is the problem. Someone sitting in the overtaking lane is easily the most common reason for someone to undertake in the first place. Sort this problem out and there wouldn't be any 'chaos' if undertaking was allowed. I suspect we'd have far fewer road rage incidents too.

creedp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Failing to drive on the left: 1 point
Dangerous overtaking: 3 points

OK you've made my mind up for me .. that me hogging the right lane in future

LFCFan

Is there anything in the law/rules that says you can't flash your lights/blow your horn at the idiot in the overtaking lane to get them to move over? Not that it makes a blind bit of difference to some people who will most likely just give you the finger for having the audacity to want them to move in to the correct lane so you don't have to break the law by undertaking them

CiniO

LFCFan wrote: »

Is there anything in the law/rules that says you can't flash your lights/blow your horn at the idiot in the overtaking lane to get them to move over? Not that it makes a blind bit of difference to some people who will most likely just give you the finger for having the audacity to want them to move in to the correct lane so you don't have to break the law by undertaking them

I didn't see any law against flashing the lights at someone to ask to move over, but it's fairly uneffective in Ireland.
People flashed treat it like sign of aggression from driver from behind, and usually they intentionally fail to move, or if they eventually do - they show up the finger.
Amount of finger's I've seen shown to me in Ireland on motorways is just tremendous.

LFCFan

CiniO wrote: »

Amount of finger's I've seen shown to me in Ireland on motorways is just tremendous.

Have seen a fair few myself and 95% of them were from people 100% in the wrong. In fairness I made a couple of mistakes myself and deserved the finger but the vast majority are from people who clearly have no idea how to drive and also have a serious attitude problem :mad:

highdef

Have probably got the finger myself but I concentrate more on what's ahead and in my mirrors rather then have a gawk to see what the person in the adjacent car is doing/looks like.
On the rare occasion that I am a passenger in a car, I'm amazed by the amount of people that look into every car that passes them......watch the road, muppets!!!
Anyway, that was a bit off-topic. As mentioned before, if I am in lane 1 and passing a car in lane 2, I am at fault if the car decides to pull into me in lane 1. However, if I am in the auxiliary lane (where available) and pass a car to the left of a car in lane 1, they are at fault if they pull over and into me as the aux lane is treated as a separate carriageway.

dtipp

dtipp wrote: »

This is an interesting debate and I'd love a definite answer.

Regularly, I'm driving out of Dublin on the Naas dualcarriageway late at night.
So I sit into the left of the 3 lanes and stick on the cruise control at around 100km/h.

There's usually very little on the road at the time of night I'm driving.
Whatever is on the road, however, is usually in the middle lane.

So I don't change lanes, I just pass on the inside - to me it's far safer than changing lanes four times every time I want to pass on vehicle (two out to right lane, two back to left lane).

Am I breaking the law?

Even if I am, I think I'm definitely doing the right thing - it's far more dangerous surely to be constantly changing lanes.

Thanks for all the replies to this question.

Leaving aside the law for a second, I can't believe anyone really thinks that continuing on the left lane (and therefore undertaking any car that is driving slower in the middle lane) is more dangerous then changing lanes 4 times every few minutes.

Either way, I won't be changing how I drive on the Naas dualcarriageway.
It's simply too dangerous IMHO to use the outside lane every time I see an idiot cantering along late at night in the middle one.

Muahahaha

djimi wrote: »

I suppose to present the observation/expectation point from a different angle:

Lets say I am driving on a motorway at the speed limit in the left hand lane. There is a car in front of me that I wish to overtake. Can I therefore pull into the overtaking lane without looking, on the basis that as I am doing the speed limit there should not be a car in that lane that is travelling faster than me?

Just because someone is breaking the law does not mean that they wont be there; if driving in Ireland has thought me anything its that if you can think of any scenario, no matter how unlikely or moronic it may seem, there is fair chance that at some stage in your driving life you will probably encounter it!

I think that's a key point here, when driving you must always expect the unexpected and that means that you have to expect that some people will not always do what you think they should be doing. AFAIK the law sees it that way too, I heard of a case a few years back where a motorcyclist was in the bus lane. A motorist moved into the bus lane in order to get around a car in front that was turning right. The car driver had the motorcyclist in their blind spot and moved in on him, knocking him clean off the bike. When it came to court the car drivers solicitor argued that the motorbike was breaking the law by being in the bus lane in the first place and that therefore the case should be dismissed as a consequence in that if the motorcyclist hadn't of broken the law then the crash would never have happened to begin with. Their argument was that the motorcyclist was to blame for the accident happening.

Anyway the judge was having none of it and remarked 'what if it had of been a cyclist?', it didn't matter to the judge that the motorcyclist was partly to blame for the situation he found himself in because at the end of the day it would never have happened if the car had of done the proper observation checks before moving into the bus lane. It didn't matter that it was a motorcyclist to the judge because it could have just as easily been a cyclist who got knocked over due to poor observation.

visual

Im surprised no one has touched apon mirrors

the right mirror is magnified compared to the left and has more focused view to allow you better judge distance for the purpose of over taking.

Its also the reason that we are taught once we do overtake and want to return to the driving lane that we shouldn't rely on the left mirror but wait until we can see the car we have just passed in the centre rear mirror.

This brings blind spots into the debate and all cars have blind spots. The biggest blind spot is to your rear left its much bigger than the right rear.

ironclaw

Something just went through my head last night, when people in lane 2 suddenly swerve to take their exit i.e. Very few middle lane drivers 'prepare' and move to the left lane (Where they should be anyway) to take their exit. Do they ever stop and think, "Wouldn't it be easier if I just stayed in lane 1 unless I had to?" Seems like an obvious solution to me. Saw this behaviour at every single junction on the M50 last night.

Thoie

ironclaw wrote: »

Something just went through my head last night, when people in lane 2 suddenly swerve to take their exit i.e. Very few middle lane drivers 'prepare' and move to the left lane (Where they should be anyway) to take their exit. Do they ever stop and think, "Wouldn't it be easier if I just stayed in lane 1 unless I had to?" Seems like an obvious solution to me. Saw this behaviour at every single junction on the M50 last night.

A million years ago, before we had motorways in Ireland, if I was driving in France I used pretty religiously stick to the right hand lane (their driving lane) on the basis that that's where the exits were, and it would save me from missing my exit.

There are some extremely rare occasions in Ireland where you may have to exit right, but middle-lane people seem to think that it's equally common to exit right or left, and that by staying in the middle they'll be prepared to go in either direction.

djimi

Thoie wrote: »

There are some extremely rare occasions in Ireland where you may have to exit right

There are? Got any examples? (Im not doubting you; Im just curious as I have never come across one!)

whomitconcerns

coming up to the old toll bridge (M50) last night at about 11pm in lane 1..a car joins from the last exit before, empty motorway in front of him and he just sails across to the lane 3, about 60/70 metres in front of me @ 80/85kph.

I come all the way across from lane 1 to the lane 3 as I want to pass him legally. After a min or two I end up flashing him and eventually after a few flashes beeping him, before he moves across, gives me the finger, I pull back across the whole way to the lane 1 and he merrily went back to lane 3 as soon as I passed!!

All fun and games!

Valetta

whomitconcerns wrote: »

coming up to the old toll bridge (M50) last night at about 11pm in lane 1..a car joins from the last exit before, empty motorway in front of him and he just sails across to the lane 3, about 60/70 metres in front of me @ 80/85kph.

I come all the way across from lane 1 to the lane 3 as I want to pass him legally. After a min or two I end up flashing him and eventually after a few flashes beeping him, before he moves across, gives me the finger, I pull back across the whole way to the lane 1 and he merrily went back to lane 3 as soon as I passed!!

All fun and games!

He was preparing to go straight on to Malahide rather than get caught in the inside lane and be forced to exit for the airport.

Thoie

djimi wrote: »

There are? Got any examples? (Im not doubting you; Im just curious as I have never come across one!)

The one I had in mind is if you're heading northbound on the M50, and want to go to Clarehall/Malahide. If you're in the driving lane, you reach a point where you need to go right to what was the middle lane in order to continue on to the N32. It's a bit unclear whether people taking the N32 are exiting right, or continuing straight ahead, but you can't stay in the driving lane and get to Malahide. Further up you end up with 5 lanes with markings like:
1 | 2 3 | 4 5 (where | shows the auxiliary lane road markings). The bulk of the traffic is taking lanes 2 and 3, which would kind of seem like 4 and 5 (to Malahide) are a right exit, albeit on the flat and straight ahead.
http://goo.gl/maps/6CDeC


The road markings around there are a bit odd in general. At the spot I've placed the little man on the map, I'd really consider that the very left lane there is still the auxilliary, where people would be merging from the previous junction, but I presume at busy times it starts filling with people queuing. If you were being very conscientious, and moved to the very left once the auxiliary lane finished, you'd find yourself a bit stuck for continuing on the N32, as you'd need to get across 3 lanes (if for some reason you missed the overhead gantries, which can happen in busy traffic if you're behind a truck).


I can't think of any others, but if I had said there was only one, someone would have popped up to tell me I'm wrong. And someone probably will now anyway.

creedp

whomitconcerns wrote: »

coming up to the old toll bridge (M50) last night at about 11pm in lane 1..a car joins from the last exit before, empty motorway in front of him and he just sails across to the lane 3, about 60/70 metres in front of me @ 80/85kph.

I come all the way across from lane 1 to the lane 3 as I want to pass him legally. After a min or two I end up flashing him and eventually after a few flashes beeping him, before he moves across, gives me the finger, I pull back across the whole way to the lane 1 and he merrily went back to lane 3 as soon as I passed!!

All fun and games!

But isn't this the point though .. it is just fun and games. Presumably some people think its actually safer to do what's outlined above than continuing on in Lane 1 simply because that's what's set out in the ROTR? I simply don't believe a garda would lash on his blue light and chase you because you continued in Lane 1 in this circumstance

ironclaw

creedp wrote: »

But isn't this the point though .. it is just fun and games. Presumably some people think its actually safer to do what's outlined above than continuing on in Lane 1 simply because that's what's set out in the ROTR? I simply don't believe a garda would lash on his blue light and chase you because you continued in Lane 1 in this circumstance

The M50 toll bridge is at least 10+ mins from the end of the M50. To be in lane 3 at that stage is lunacy. Its not that hard to traverse 3 lanes, in any traffic conditions.

Anyone I see going straight for lane 3 in a newish car is generally a rental in my experience. I've often had to flash people out of the way and when you look in its Hertz and maps all over the dash :pac:

Zubeneschamali

djimi wrote: »

There are? Got any examples? (Im not doubting you; Im just curious as I have never come across one!)

Approaching the M50 from the West is a dualler, not a motorway, but the rules for good lane discipline should be the same. It is quite unclear where you transition from "keep left" to "get in the right hand lane to exit right for the M50 North". Many people seem to think around Kinnegad is appropriate.

corktina

ironclaw wrote: »

The M50 toll bridge is at least 10+ mins from the end of the M50. To be in lane 3 at that stage is lunacy. Its not that hard to traverse 3 lanes, in any traffic conditions.

Anyone I see going straight for lane 3 in a newish car is generally a rental in my experience. I've often had to flash people out of the way and when you look in its Hertz and maps all over the dash :pac:

I think he was joking....see the smilie

creedp

ironclaw wrote: »

The M50 toll bridge is at least 10+ mins from the end of the M50. To be in lane 3 at that stage is lunacy. Its not that hard to traverse 3 lanes, in any traffic conditions.

Anyone I see going straight for lane 3 in a newish car is generally a rental in my experience. I've often had to flash people out of the way and when you look in its Hertz and maps all over the dash :pac:

Yes but my point stands .. its not black and white and the idea that everyone should religiously cross from Lane 1 to Lane 3 and try and cajole a Lane 3 hogger to move to Lane 2 so he can overtake him and then promptly move back to Lane 1 is plain ridicuous in my view.

One of the main arguments put forward against overtaking on the left is that the person on your right might miraclously decide to swerve into the left lane without warning and you would cause them to have an accident!! Surely that could not be considered a high risk if they are in Lane 3 and you in Lane 1? Secondly, it is considered against the law and therefore the Gardai would pull you in for committing such a heinous crime .. in this case I will have to 'put my fingers in the wound' before I believe that a Garda would seek to prosecute the Lane 1 driver in this circumstance. Again, instead of trying desperately to abide by the letter of the law even with the most bizarre results, I think people should consider driving in a maner that it practical and reasonable given the circumstances.

djimi

Thoie wrote: »

The one I had in mind is if you're heading northbound on the M50, and want to go to Clarehall/Malahide. If you're in the driving lane, you reach a point where you need to go right to what was the middle lane in order to continue on to the N32. It's a bit unclear whether people taking the N32 are exiting right, or continuing straight ahead, but you can't stay in the driving lane and get to Malahide. Further up you end up with 5 lanes with markings like:
1 | 2 3 | 4 5 (where | shows the auxiliary lane road markings). The bulk of the traffic is taking lanes 2 and 3, which would kind of seem like 4 and 5 (to Malahide) are a right exit, albeit on the flat and straight ahead.
http://goo.gl/maps/6CDeC


The road markings around there are a bit odd in general. At the spot I've placed the little man on the map, I'd really consider that the very left lane there is still the auxilliary, where people would be merging from the previous junction, but I presume at busy times it starts filling with people queuing. If you were being very conscientious, and moved to the very left once the auxiliary lane finished, you'd find yourself a bit stuck for continuing on the N32, as you'd need to get across 3 lanes (if for some reason you missed the overhead gantries, which can happen in busy traffic if you're behind a truck).


I can't think of any others, but if I had said there was only one, someone would have popped up to tell me I'm wrong. And someone probably will now anyway.

Ah right I get you; in my head thats more where lanes split off to different roads rather than an exit as such, but I get what you mean.

Hotblack Desiato

highdef wrote: »

I may be incorrect but as far as I am aware the aux lane is considered to be separate from the main carriageway and that is why overtaking on the inside is an ok thing to do. Saying that, I am only ever in the aux lane when I am entering the motorway or if I am taking the next exit, i would not use the aux lane as a loophole lane to overtake traffic on the inside if I was not taking the follwoing exit.

You're allowed pass on the left if you are taking the next turn to the left. This would cover the auxiliary lane scenario - if you were using that lane correctly.

corktina

ninja900 wrote: »

You're allowed pass on the left if you are taking the next turn to the left. This would cover the auxiliary lane scenario - if you were using that lane correctly.

No you aren't .Not on a motorway.

highdef

corktina wrote: »

No you aren't .Not on a motorway.

I think you may be incorrect. The whole point of the auxiliary lane is that it is treated as a separate carriageway to the mainlines of the motorway, so as to ease congestion and cut out unnecessary lane changes. If I enter the M50 at junction 4 and intend to exit at exit 5, I stay in the aux lane and never actually enter the motorway proper. If the traffic on the main carriageway is heavy and travelling at slow speed (say 60 - 80 or something like that), I am not restricted to travel at such slow speeds as long as the aux lane is clear and moving.

Obviously, common sense would have to prevail as with all aspects of driving; if the main carriageway is at a crawl or stopped and the aux lane is clear, the driver with half an ounce of brain power will drive with caution at lower speed to expect the unexpected but nonetheless will proceed at a greater rate than those in the main carriageway.

Bruthal

Banjoxed wrote: »

Still doesn't stop idiots from doing it. Probably the minority of drivers on the motorways actually know how to drive on a motorway. Undertakers, tailgaters and middle lane hoggers please note!

Yes, speeders are ok though. Its only some types of "against the law" driving that annoys the easily annoyed drivers.

corktina

highdef wrote: »

I think you may be incorrect. The whole point of the auxiliary lane is that it is treated as a separate carriageway to the mainlines of the motorway, so as to ease congestion and cut out unnecessary lane changes. If I enter the M50 at junction 4 and intend to exit at exit 5, I stay in the aux lane and never actually enter the motorway proper. If the traffic on the main carriageway is heavy and travelling at slow speed (say 60 - 80 or something like that), I am not restricted to travel at such slow speeds as long as the aux lane is clear and moving.

Obviously, common sense would have to prevail as with all aspects of driving; if the main carriageway is at a crawl or stopped and the aux lane is clear, the driver with half an ounce of brain power will drive with caution at lower speed to expect the unexpected but nonetheless will proceed at a greater rate than those in the main carriageway.

on an auxiliary lane yes (perhaps) but not on a motorway. In your scenario, you are in any case allowed pass on the inside.