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Driving in the middle lane

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123578

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    #122
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Just how is it (w)reckless to carry out any of those manoeuvres (unless you did it recklessly by not using your mirror and signalling of course...)


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    #123
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    corktina wrote: »
    Just how is it (w)reckless to carry out any of those manoeuvres (unless you did it recklessly by not using your mirror and signalling of course...)

    Reckless on the basis that the other driver is obviously a moron and could do anything no matter what side you passed him on. There should be a no fly zone extending over his head, in case he suddenly becomes aware of the sky. Hopefully that would be conveyed by tone of voice.

    Those manoeuvres in and of themselves aren't reckless (providing you're observing and signalling of course).


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    #124
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Thoie wrote: »
    If it was me (and assuming I was stupid enough to defend myself instead of getting a solicitor), I'd say not guilty on the basis that I had joined the motorway at junction Y, and was driving in the driving lane for x kilometers at a steady, maintained speed, and had not been overtaken by the other car. I was not deliberately performing an overtaking maneuver. The car in the overtaking lane was driving slowly, and not overtaking, and not signalling any intention of returning to the driving lane. It would have been wreckless of me to brake to match his speed, fall in behind him, overtake, then move back across 2 lanes of traffic to the driving lane, as he was obviously distracted, and I didn't want to distract him further by weaving backwards and forwards across the road behind and in front of him.

    I very much doubt that a judge would sit still while you said all that.

    I think you'd get to "Not Guilty on the...", be asked if you are denying overtaking on the left? You say "no but", and wallop, guilty 5 points and a €160 fine, next case.


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    #125
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Thoie wrote: »
    If it was me (and assuming I was stupid enough to defend myself instead of getting a solicitor), I'd say not guilty on the basis that I had joined the motorway at junction Y, and was driving in the driving lane for x kilometers at a steady, maintained speed, and had not been overtaken by the other car. I was not deliberately performing an overtaking maneuver. The car in the overtaking lane was driving slowly, and not overtaking, and not signalling any intention of returning to the driving lane. It would have been wreckless of me to brake to match his speed, fall in behind him, overtake, then move back across 2 lanes of traffic to the driving lane, as he was obviously distracted, and I didn't want to distract him further by weaving backwards and forwards across the road behind and in front of him.

    I'd probably still get the book thrown at me, but that would be what I'd say.


    What would the charge in court be anyway?

    Dangerous overtaking, and I think you'd get done.


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    #126
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I very much doubt that a judge would sit still while you said all that.

    I think you'd get to "Not Guilty on the...", be asked if you are denying overtaking on the left? You say "no but", and wallop, guilty 5 points and a €160 fine, next case.
    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Dangerous overtaking, and I think you'd get done.

    I have been found guilty by a jury of my peers. Who will I send the €160 to? Will I just split it between ye? :p


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    #127
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #128
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Thoie wrote: »
    I have been found guilty by a jury of my peers.

    I'm guilty of it, too, so if you send me the fine, I'll send it back.


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    #129
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The joke is that there's no enforcement of any rules, like the one telling that knob to keep left.


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    #130
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The speed limit is 60KPH there till way up the road after the exit for the lues car park. So you would be breaking the law by undertaking and speeding .
    just saying. hehe.

    [


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    #131
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #132
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Sorry . Got you confused there. My mistake. Eating my words now .. lol
    The ramp that merges onto the N7 from the m50 is 60kph which stays in place nearly up to newlands cross.


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    #133
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    I haven't read through the bickering, but seeing as there is a certain amount of ambiguity surrounding the phrase 'slow moving traffic', I asked the RSA for clarification.

    Question:
    PaddyMcGrathIRL: @RSAIreland Q for you folks, can you elaborate on what is considered 'slow moving traffic' with regards to overtaking on the left? // This is with regard to those who drive in the middle lane of a three lane motorway primarily. // i.e. If car X is travelling at 90KM/H in lane 1, is it permissible to undertake car Y in lane 2 which is travelling at 80KM/H?

    Answer:
    RSAIreland: @PaddyMcGrathIRL It's not safe to pass a vehicle on the left hand side in the circumstance you have outlined. // See pg 52 of the Rules of the Road for possible safe examples http://t.co/LnE2V7lUIL // An example of slow moving traffic is queued traffic or when traffic lanes are stop starting.

    I'm surprised that something as simple as that needed to be cleared up for some people, always thought it was obvious. For those who think they're being a safer driver by overtaking on the left, you're not. There's a reason it's illegal.


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    #134
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Unfortunately the RSA's word is no more legally binding than any of the "bickering" on here, and the ROTR are just a laymans interpretation of the law (and often not a very good one...)

    I would be interested to hear what an actual legal professional would have to say on the matter, preferably a judge who is ruling on such a case.


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    #135
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    djimi wrote: »
    Unfortunately the RSA's word is no more legally binding than any of the "bickering" on here, and the ROTR are just a laymans interpretation of the law (and often not a very good one...)

    I would be interested to hear what an actual legal professional would have to say on the matter, preferably a judge who is ruling on such a case.

    Surely at this stage a legal precedent would have been set already? There has to have been previous prosecutions for this offence but has anyone ever challenged it in court? Personally, I wouldn't fancy being the first.


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    #136
    LFCFan
    Moderators Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭LFCFan


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    I haven't read through the bickering, but seeing as there is a certain amount of ambiguity surrounding the phrase 'slow moving traffic', I asked the RSA for clarification.

    Question:
    PaddyMcGrathIRL: @RSAIreland Q for you folks, can you elaborate on what is considered 'slow moving traffic' with regards to overtaking on the left? // This is with regard to those who drive in the middle lane of a three lane motorway primarily. // i.e. If car X is travelling at 90KM/H in lane 1, is it permissible to undertake car Y in lane 2 which is travelling at 80KM/H?

    Answer:
    RSAIreland: @PaddyMcGrathIRL It's not safe to pass a vehicle on the left hand side in the circumstance you have outlined. // See pg 52 of the Rules of the Road for possible safe examples http://t.co/LnE2V7lUIL // An example of slow moving traffic is queued traffic or when traffic lanes are stop starting.

    I'm surprised that something as simple as that needed to be cleared up for some people, always thought it was obvious. For those who think they're being a safer driver by overtaking on the left, you're not. There's a reason it's illegal.

    This example is of a single car in the middle lane. I think most people would agree than in this example it is best to move across lanes to 'over'take this car and then back to the driving lane. I think the big problem on our motorways is when there is a queue of traffic in the middle and overtaking lanes (or overtaking lane on a 2 lane road) and you are driving on the inside lane. In those cases there is nowhere to go to get past this traffic other than continuing to drive in the lane you are in, thus 'under'taking the queue of traffic. Either that or join the slower queue in the wrong lane or slow down to their speed in the lane you are in despite there being nothing in front of you.


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    #137
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    LFCFan wrote: »
    This example is of a single car in the middle lane. I think most people would agree than in this example it is best to move across lanes to 'over'take this car and then back to the driving lane. I think the big problem on our motorways is when there is a queue of traffic in the middle and overtaking lanes (or overtaking lane on a 2 lane road) and you are driving on the inside lane. In those cases there is nowhere to go to get past this traffic other than continuing to drive in the lane you are in, thus 'under'taking the queue of traffic. Either that or join the slower queue in the wrong lane or slow down to their speed in the lane you are in despite there being nothing in front of you.

    I've asked again, but I know i'm going to get the same answer. They stated that 'slow moving traffic' means either queues or stop / start congestion. In my experience, 'queues' means stationary traffic, not a line of moving cars.

    I'll update when I hear back from them.


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    #138
    LFCFan
    Moderators Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭LFCFan


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    I've asked again, but I know i'm going to get the same answer. They stated that 'slow moving traffic' means either queues or stop / start congestion. In my experience, 'queues' means stationary traffic, not a line of moving cars.

    I'll update when I hear back from them.

    I've no doubt they will say the exact same thing but laws and rules don't always make sense and can cause more problems. Humans write the rules and humans make mistakes. It's like the 80kph signs on small boreens up and down the country. They make zero sense but they are there none the less. If people just drove the way they are supposed to, we wouldn't be discussing these '1st world' issues and motorways would flow a lot better. Unfortunately we live in a country full of badly educated drivers and drivers with a race mentality on our roads like they have to be in front all the time.


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    #139
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    There's a reason it's illegal.

    Yes, but it's not the simplistic reason that "it's dangerous" to pass on the left. It's dangerous because no-one expects it because it's illegal.

    The real reason it's illegal is what without a "keep left, pass right" rule, all lanes will move at the speed of the slowest driver, and you'll have to weave to make progress, which would be slower and more dangerous.

    You can see it on the freeways in the states, where all lanes just cruise along at the same general speed. The difference there is that they all do it at 70 mph, here we'd be at 70 kph behind flat-cap man and the nun in her Micra.


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    #140
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    LFCFan wrote: »
    I've no doubt they will say the exact same thing but laws and rules don't always make sense and can cause more problems. Humans write the rules and humans make mistakes. It's like the 80kph signs on small boreens up and down the country. They make zero sense but they are there none the less. If people just drove the way they are supposed to, we wouldn't be discussing these '1st world' issues and motorways would flow a lot better. Unfortunately we live in a country full of badly educated drivers and drivers with a race mentality on our roads like they have to be in front all the time.

    All the more reason to not take the risk of overtaking on the left IMO. I agree that a lot of rules and limits are non-sensical but unfortunately, they're what's in place and we have to deal with them.


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    #141
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    I've asked again, but I know i'm going to get the same answer. They stated that 'slow moving traffic' means either queues or stop / start congestion. In my experience, 'queues' means stationary traffic, not a line of moving cars.

    I'll update when I hear back from them.

    The problem with the definition is that it is entirely possible to be in a queue of cars, where three lanes are all doing around 40mph! Its slow moving traffic by any interpretation of the meaning (Im sure that anyone who has ever driven in rush hour traffic knows exactly what I am referring to), but it is not stop start.


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    #142
    LFCFan
    Moderators Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭LFCFan


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    All the more reason to not take the risk of overtaking on the left IMO. I agree that a lot of rules and limits are non-sensical but unfortunately, they're what's in place and we have to deal with them.

    I would hope they have the sense to look in their mirror before moving lane whether it's left or right but unfortunately I don't trust anyone else on the road to do the right thing so am always ready to react to stupidity.

    I also think the Gardai use some common sense when policing our roads. The law may say the speed limit is 120kph on the M1 but if you're doing 130kph and it's safe to do so I would hope they would let you at it. Same goes for passing on the left. I've seen it been done many times with the Gardai around and even them being passed on the left but they made no attempt to stop them. Whatever about the rules of the road, I think common sense is more important in a lot of cases


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    #143
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Yes, but it's not the simplistic reason that "it's dangerous" to pass on the left. It's dangerous because no-one expects it because it's illegal.
    .


    Well said. It comes back to the fact that overtaking on the left is a risk and an easily avoidable one at that. We're all aware that the standard of driving in Ireland is beyond poor so it's up to the better drivers amongst us to prevent any accidents due to the incompetence around us.


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    #144
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    LFCFan wrote: »
    I also think the Gardai use some common sense when policing our roads.

    The Gardaí police our roads? Since when? :D


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    #145
    LFCFan
    Moderators Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭LFCFan


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The Gardaí police our roads? Since when? :D

    Haha, yeah, had to think about that one but figured 'The Gardai have to Gardai our roads' didn't sound right ;)


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    #146
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,657 ✭✭✭creedp


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    Well said. It comes back to the fact that overtaking on the left is a risk and an easily avoidable one at that. We're all aware that the standard of driving in Ireland is beyond poor so it's up to the better drivers amongst us to prevent any accidents due to the incompetence around us.


    Which is the lessor of 2 evils .. maintaining one's course in the left or middle lane even if this involves undertaking slower moving traffic on your right or simply stay put in the right most lane and ignore all to your left? Maybe its a case of if you can't beat the lane hoggers .. join them! Seems to be that there is a lot more ire expressed for people who undertake hoggers that for the hoggers themselves .. so anything for a quiet like because personally I am not going to move from the left lane of a busy motorway across 3 lanes so that I can overtake a middle lane hogger and return to the left lane simply to abide by a law that makes no sense from a practical perspective.


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    #147
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    creedp wrote: »
    Which is the lessor of 2 evils .. maintaining one's course in the left or middle lane even if this involves undertaking slower moving traffic on your right or simply stay put in the right most lane and ignore all to your left?

    Failing to drive on the left: 1 point
    Dangerous overtaking: 3 points


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    #148
    ldxo15wus6fpgm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭ldxo15wus6fpgm


    I was recently pulled for undertaking on the N7. Garda said he would have booked me for dangerous overtaking if the guy in the overtaking lane hadn't been crawling along holding everyone up. At first I wanted to argue about it, but seeing as he wasn't taking any action on it I kept my mouth shut. I do think it is ridiculous for undertaking to be illegal.

    Why on earth should it matter what side you approach from? All this rule does is enable idiots on the road to manoeuvre without checking their mirrors.


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    #149
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Deborah Unsightly Professor wrote: »
    I was recently pulled for undertaking on the N7. Garda said he would have booked me for dangerous overtaking if the guy in the overtaking lane hadn't been crawling along holding everyone up. At first I wanted to argue about it, but seeing as he wasn't taking any action on it I kept my mouth shut. I do think it is ridiculous for undertaking to be illegal.

    This is exactly what is wrong with the police force in this country. Theyll pull you over for passing a slow moving car on the left, but I can guarantee that if a hundred cars get pulled over for passing that prat out, not once will he get pulled over for driving in the wrong lane.

    The single most fundemental rule of driving in this country is that you drive on the left; this rule should be enforced before all others, period.


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    #150
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Can you imagine the chaos without this rule? It would give carte blanche to even more people to hog the overtaking lane and you'd have people weaving in and out, constantly having to switch lane to under- and overtake


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    #151
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    djimi wrote: »
    This is exactly what is wrong with the police force in this country. Theyll pull you over for passing a slow moving car on the left, but I can guarantee that if a hundred cars get pulled over for passing that prat out, not once will he get pulled over for driving in the wrong lane.

    The single most fundemental rule of driving in this country is that you drive on the left; this rule should be enforced before all others, period.

    Yep, the Gard should have stopped the other guy...it's the only way these twits will learn to keep to the left


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