Brenda Power versus the Travellers

conorhal

20Cent wrote: »

My policy is criticise people for what they do not what they are. Powers article would have been fine if she stuck to those involved in the problems but she didn't she applied it to all travellers that's where the problem with the article is.

That's not just failing to see the wood for the trees, that's pretending that there is no wood at all.
The fact of the matter is that there is a serious problem with traveller culture and that can only be addressed at a collective level. 80% unemployment, social welfare dependence, low educational achievement, domestic abuse, criminal sources of income. All these are a product of their 'culture' and addressing one crime or one incident in isolaton does nothing to address the structural problems of the traveller comunity.

Boombastic

D1stant wrote: »

From December 2012

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/one-in-four-polish-workers-in-country-claiming-dole-26883566.html

October 2012


84% of travellers unemployed. No language barrier. Discuss


http://www.thejournal.ie/84-per-cent-of-travellers-unemployed-640261-Oct2012/

Artful_Badger

steveone wrote: »

Yes but OP used the piece in the context of a fear of publicity and with the lack of mainstream involvement its left to quack journalism to kick around

And whats the fear of publicity based on ? Its based on the fact people know what they are saying is inherently wrong. Which is why no reputable publication touches this stuff.

There is a reason quack media kick this stuff around. They have no credibility and they can throw out any old nonsense they like. And the most lucrative way to make money out of that is play on peoples fears, hatreds and prejudices.

nullzero

I have to laugh at travellers using the term "racist". I come into contact with them regularly and they are no strangers to racism themselves. Suffice to say the "N word" would be in common usage amongst the travelling community.

There are definite problems with their "culture", and people are deathly afraid to talk about it. There are some decent travellers as well though, you can't deny that, although there are an awful lot of travellers who would fit into the more negative grouping. Pavee point always appears to be in denial about the problems in traveller culture. Everything always has to be someone else's fault with them, the victim culture needs to be kicked into touch before travellers can progress on any meaningful way, the issue there would be ; is there a willingness to change? I'mnot so sure there is.

Fries-With-That

Brenda/Joe/Pavee Point air their views on the article.


http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!detail=&rii=0%3A20559825%3A0%3A%3A&type=doPlayThis

Its worth listening to the podcast.

Kermit.de.frog

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Its based on the fact people know what they are saying is inherently wrong.

Have you ever had a traveller camp set up down the road from you? If so can you tell us the experience. I'd be interested to know because the experience in my area was not good.

Why is it wrong for me as a hard working member of society that pays my taxes and abides by the law to say this? It's true.

Femme_Fatale

nullzero wrote: »

There are some decent travellers as well though, you can't deny that

Absolutely. And they have to put up with the most sh1t.

School attendance isn't compulsory for traveller children and it really should be. I believe that's on the cards though - good move.

Ghost Buster

tipptom wrote: »

Well explain to me how you view them as an ethnic group then?,is it just because they like caravans or is it just a way of circumventing the rules of normal society but taking as much out of that society that they can.


Maybe the people of the West of Ireland should demand that the taxpayer give them an all expenses paid holiday to the Basque region so they can reassert their culture and ethnic identity.

Not sure if youre with me or against me!!!;)
What Im saying is that at a stretch its possible to claim a separate ethnicity in numerous cases and there fore should possible not be claimed in most.
Jaysas. Ginger people will be looking for special treatment next.

steveone

Artful_Badger wrote: »

And whats the fear of publicity based on ? Its based on the fact people know what they are saying is inherently wrong. Which is why no reputable publication touches this stuff.

There is a reason quack media kick this stuff around. They have no credibility and they can throw out any old nonsense they like. And the most lucrative way to make money out of that is play on peoples fears, hatreds and prejudices.

Yes i agree about the freedom the quacks have. Tere is definitely a 'hands off the travellers' approach and saying that mainstream journalism is scared off by lack of accurate info is wrong in my book. They are disuaded because at every mention they will be met by a wall of legal arguement defending a cultural heritage in a hostile society. Go to any traveller camp and see this heritage in operation. I personally dont mind travellers and they dont mind me but there are elephants in the room.

Ghost Buster

steveone wrote: »

Did RTE not run a program telling us how traveller DNA was uniquely irish? Whats this about basques?

Diarmuid Gavin presented the Irish version of a major international DNA tracing carried out in the last decade or so. It basically traced global human migration over the last 1000 years. People on the West Coast look similar to and indeed share common DNA with folk from the celtic basque regions of Spain.

Artful_Badger

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Have you ever had a traveller camp set up down the road from you? If so can you tell us the experience.

What has that got to do with anything ? I've had plenty of negative experiences with travellers. I hold the same view as most others when it comes to them too.

My point is in relation to publishing that in mainstream media. Media should not be a platform for anyone and everyone to air whatever personal prejudicial views they want. Just because most people seem to hold the same view as Brenda Power that doesn't justify the article. Its not popularity that defines what's right and wrong. And it is inherently wrong to publicly air prejudicial opinions relating to a section of society regardless of whether or not you think they are justified based on your own experiences.

20Cent

"Breed" "parasites" etc words used to dehumanise others.

Ghost Buster

Artful_Badger wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything ? I've had plenty of negative experiences with travellers. I hold the same view as most others when it comes to them too.

My point is in relation to publishing that in mainstream media. Media should not be a platform for anyone and everyone to air whatever personal prejudicial views they want. Just because most people seem to hold the same view as Brenda Power that doesn't justify the article. Its not popularity that defines what's right and wrong. And it is inherently wrong to publicly air prejudicial opinions relating to a section of society regardless of whether or not you think they are justified based on your own experiences.

Unless its an 'opinion piece'

Femme_Fatale

20Cent wrote: »

"Breed" "parasites" etc words used to dehumanise others.

Yes, language like that is unhelpful.

Artful_Badger

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Have you ever had a traveller camp set up down the road from you? If so can you tell us the experience. I'd be interested to know because the experience in my area was not good.

Why is it wrong for me as a hard working member of society that pays my taxes and abides by the law to say this? It's true.

That's not what was said in the article though. What she said was a load of stuff like "Traveller men are lazy, violent, drunks" , "travellers are milking the state for everything they can get" etc. You just cant say that stuff and not because of travellers being off limits. Its because you just cant say those things about any section of society without immediately reducing your argument to "They are all the same". That's unavoidable when it comes to personal opinion but as an argument its inherently flawed and irrational and thats why no reputable publication entertains such stuff.

Mint Aero

I'm of the opinion that I don't like them or their way of life. This applies to all travellers. In my opinion, in this day and age, we should have more cop on as a society and stop encouraging/permitting people to exist outside the system.

Artful_Badger

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Unless its an 'opinion piece'

Labelling it "opinion piece" doesn't make it ok to air whatever prejudicial views you have about sections of society.

D1stant

D1stant wrote: »

So would I. Actually I think it would be a valuable piece of social research to figure out prison populations, earnings by group versus main population.

There are over 120,000 Polish people in Ireland, of which approx 25% are on social welfare. How much crime is committed by the Poles per capita?. Ditto for all other nationalities

I think many people would expect that travellers would have a very high prison population & social welfare claim per capita

Some data here (from 2006)

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/aiths2010/TR2/AITHS2010_TechnicalReport2_HR_PartC.pdf?direct=1

Travelers are approx .65% of population (30,000 from 4.6 million) but prison population is 4.4% of males and 11.3% of females (table 5)

84% unemployed. Wow

I wonder per head, how much the traveler community costs versus other groups

Local-womanizer

What annoys me though, is certain Travellers give out about how hard it is for them to find employment in Ireland, and how they are at the end of constant discrimination from the settled community, and then they jump into their 2014 Ford Transit.

If I was receiving government benefits and was driving a brand new car, questions would be asked, and investigations launched.

Any job I've worked in, any dealing with the public, it seems the majority of travellers we dealt with would play the discrimination card when you caught them stealing. I'm not saying non travellers don't steal but at least they try and be subtle about it. I caught a traveller stuffing DVDs down his jocks while he had his kids try and distract me. and when I confront him I am the criminal for discriminating.

Boombastic

D1stant wrote: »

Some data here (from 2006)

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/aiths2010/TR2/AITHS2010_TechnicalReport2_HR_PartC.pdf?direct=1

Travelers are approx .65% of population (30,000 from 4.6 million) but prison population is 4.4% of males and 11.3% of females (table 5)

84% unemployed. Wow

I wonder per head, how much the traveler community costs versus other groups

Shouldn't the number of them imprisoned in england also be taken in to account? Same ethnic group...'irish travellers'

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

CrackisWhack wrote: »

"We can't tar all travellers with the same brush because of the actions of a few"

Always hear this, which I generally agree with, problem is, there is approx. a population of 30k travellers in Ireland, so it's more than a few. I'd like to know the prison population of travellers in Ireland.

Figures quoted on radio last week said there were over 400 travellers in jail! And 1% of all prisoners in England and Wales.

foggy_lad

suicide_circus wrote: »

No. Travellers own lack of respect for and contribution to wider society ( while stll benefiting from it) is the problem.

Ah your laws are not our laws!

nullzero wrote: »

I have to laugh at travellers using the term "racist". I come into contact with them regularly and they are no strangers to racism themselves. Suffice to say the "N word" would be in common usage amongst the travelling community.

There are definite problems with their "culture", and people are deathly afraid to talk about it. There are some decent travellers as well though, you can't deny that, although there are an awful lot of travellers who would fit into the more negative grouping. Pavee point always appears to be in denial about the problems in traveller culture. Everything always has to be someone else's fault with them, the victim culture needs to be kicked into touch before travellers can progress on any meaningful way, the issue there would be ; is there a willingness to change? I'mnot so sure there is.

I remember some time ago Paddy O'Gorman did one of his usual reports for RTE radio outside Mountjoy on visiting day, he spoke with quite a few traveller women who had been in visiting husbands and family members. He found out that the travellers are housed by their own choice in the basement of the building, the worst dampest dirtiest part of the prison which would not be used otherwise, and they CHOOSE to be housed there rather than have to mix with foreign prisoners including the eastern europeans and africans. Two of the traveller women even described african prisoners as "monkeys"! He seemed astonished at how "racist" the travellers were coming across yet they were usually the first and loudest to use the racism card!

Femme_Fatale

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Mate of mine in Stockholm tells me that they are going about over there 'tarmacing' drives and trying to extort money. Its not just an irish issue any more!

It's occurring in Scandinavia/Denmark and Germany so it is damaging the Irish's reputation. It shouldn't, but it's bound to.

holystungun9

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

Was Barack Obama right in saying that thing that he said last Wednesday at about 3 o clock?

Damn straight!

holystungun9

D1stant wrote: »

Some data here (from 2006)

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/aiths2010/TR2/AITHS2010_TechnicalReport2_HR_PartC.pdf?direct=1

Travelers are approx .65% of population (30,000 from 4.6 million) but prison population is 4.4% of males and 11.3% of females (table 5)

84% unemployed. Wow

I wonder per head, how much the traveler community costs versus other groups

I'd love to find the magic link which can explain the connection between 84% unemployment and so many recent reg vans and alloy wheels. No I can't quote a figure for new/recent reg vehicle purchases to members of the travelling community but my eyeballs have sure noticed a lot over the past few years.

Arbiter of Good Taste

holystungun9 wrote: »

I'd love to find the magic link which can explain the connection between 84% unemployment and so many recent reg vans and alloy wheels. No I can't quote a figure for new/recent reg vehicle purchases to members of the travelling community but my eyeballs have sure noticed a lot over the past few years.

You know you can't trust your racist lying eyes.

Dan_Solo

If travellers want to continually define themeselves as having a separate culture then I think it's entirely fine to criticize that culture if there are aspects of it that are incompatible with the norms of the rest of the population.
As for freebies just for claiming to be a special case? Had away and sh1te.

Stavros Murphy

This whole merry-go-round, again? Really? I'm starting to miss the good old days, when these threads just got locked regardless.

humanji

Since there's not much talk of the article and everyone just wants to go over the exact same Traveller thread staples, there's little reason to leave this open. Anything you think you might say here has already been said before, so just do a search of the forum and save yourself some time.