Rumour about big meat factory - is it true?

paddysdream

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Only one spud in the fields idea, but
It would be grate if we could start a farmers factory, owned by the farmers that supply it. Not easy to do by any means but a nice dream!
Try get contracts to all the irish supermarkets to try ensure a constant flow of beef. Cut the middle man out so to speak.

That sounds good in theory but can you see it working?
Low margin ,high volume industry and how many farmers would be willing to put up say 5k each to start it?

Then when tesco etc come along and ask will you be cheaper and can you supply what we want,not what you have,what would the shareholders say?

Reason it isn't being tried now is that its a non runner to start from scratch.How about farmers buyout an existing plant and try to run it.Garauntee you that within 6 months it would be either broke or unable to get cattle

Mad4simmental

tomwaterford wrote: »

to do this you will have to set up facility to process waste as AFAIK the present factory that deos that is owned by main beef processer in Ireland at the min!!

will the farmers take a cut in there profits from new factory to run this second factory....they will have to

I'm only throwing it out there naby it wouldn't work at all. We currently don't get payed for the fifth quarter so naby that could fund a fair % of it?

tomwaterford

Mad4simmental wrote: »

I'm only throwing it out there naby it wouldn't work at all. We currently don't get payed for the fifth quarter so naby that could fund a fair % of it?

it is surly getting to stage now where the very least is a feasibility study should be done???

though you would want to be well up with regulations as I could guess the dept would get a heap of annomysus tipp-off

rancher

tomwaterford wrote: »

it is surly getting to stage now where the very least is a feasibility study should be done???

though you would want to be well up with regulations as I could guess the dept would get a heap of annomysus tipp-off

Who'd do the rendering, one person seems to have that sewn up In Ireland too

leg wax

seeing a little into the shipping down here lately, and from what numbers are going out and the old company that shipped cattle in the 80s doing up their yards to also start shipping ,i can see why larry has no choice but buy calves and fill feed lots for himself.

rancher

leg wax wrote: »

seeing a little into the shipping down here lately, and from what numbers are going out and the old company that shipped cattle in the 80s doing up their yards to also start shipping ,i can see why larry has no choice but buy calves and fill feed lots for himself.

There's a lot of bulls being exported at the moment, even heavy bulls, some at poor money,
At least they're getting rid

Mad4simmental

paddysdream wrote: »

That sounds good in theory but can you see it working?
Low margin ,high volume industry and how many farmers would be willing to put up say 5k each to start it?

Then when tesco etc come along and ask will you be cheaper and can you supply what we want,not what you have,what would the shareholders say?

Reason it isn't being tried now is that its a non runner to start from scratch.How about farmers buyout an existing plant and try to run it.Garauntee you that within 6 months it would be either broke or unable to get cattle

It certainly wouldn't be easy and probably would never happen.
That type of factory run right should be able to sell to supermarkets at a lower cost and a higher profit to farmers all day every day.
Try run it as a not for profit business to try keep the greedy out of the pot.
The factory stands to make a profit for farmers (share holders) supply at a better rate and that's it.
It's out there but naby worth a look into.
IMO it makes more sence than the new Beet Ireland proposal!

tomwaterford

rancher wrote: »

Who'd do the rendering, one person seems to have that sewn up In Ireland too

I have raised this point as regards processing waste:)

the opening of second factory deos make it expensive...though a feasibility study would be interesting reading to say the least (so long as they released there figures not just a conclusion!!)

case 956

Rancher that was a very ignorant reply on your behalf to me, calling someone lazy cause they wont hit the streets of Dublin to protest with ye... some of us active young farmers are too busy running our business and trying making it viable as we can with all the levies and price cuts we are faced with..it was a long time ago since ye had 20,000 protesting... What am I doing about what? one single voice of mine is no good, but I tell you I haven't paid any ifa membersip fees or levies since November last, when I had a ifa man out canvassing for election last autumn I showed him the gate because in my opinion yer worse than the shower in the dail, ALL PROMISES NO ACTION. IFA is a organisation set up to help as no 2 on ifa cosituation and rules: to secure adequate living in line with the prevailing standards, economic and social for the maximum number of families living on the land, to fight for our rights and negoate on behave of farming familie, yer doing none of that letting the fattories walk over the beef farmer who is struggling and in adverse if it continues struggle to feed his family, ifa doing nothing as if they were this beef situation be fought against, ifa are happy to collect levies and m fees.

paddysdream

Mad4simmental wrote: »

It certainly wouldn't be easy and probably would never happen.
That type of factory run right should be able to sell to supermarkets at a lower cost and a higher profit to farmers all day every day.
Try run it as a not for profit business to try keep the greedy out of the pot.
The factory stands to make a profit for farmers (share holders) supply at a better rate and that's it.
It's out there but naby worth a look into.
IMO it makes more sence than the new Beet Ireland proposal!

How could they sell at a lower cost if they had to pay more for stock?
To run it as a not for profit business then where would funds to expand/upgrade come from?
Greedy?don't we all want to make a few bob or should we supply cattle and invest in processing facilities for goodwill only?
Beet Ireland will never take off as who will supply beet(after having to invest 25k per 400 ton contract) for 35 a ton for clean beet less haulage when farmers will pay that and more for dirty tonnage most years.

Mad4simmental

paddysdream wrote: »

How could they sell at a lower cost if they had to pay more for stock?

If you remove the profit of the factory, it works both ways, can afford to pay a little bit more. Contract beef so mr x and mr y knows what they are getting.
As for expansion ect I believe many small factory's would be better than one big one. It's only an idea what elce do you see being any good?
The way things are now the factory's hold the power and that's it. As one previous poster put it
we can protest, won't work
We can block factory gates, won't work,
What elce is there??

eeeee

Hmm it is a depressing situation. I don't know all the ins and outs but from what I understand it have only 1 option when it comes to rendering. Rendering person holds quite a few strings in things . If you want to open a new factory you have to sort out the rendering. You cant open a new rendering plant pretty much from protest point of view etc. So that's sewn up. Rendering person and factories have a Very Close WOrking Relationship. Symbiotic I suppose you could call it. So now factories decide to rear their own beef. Thus removing another level of competition. Cartel much? So there is really no competition, the one small group of people buys, I would say if it's let go along eventually breeds, rears, stores and kills their own stock, leaving farmers as managers or contract rearers only. That is my understanding of it, although I may be very wrong, as I said I have only a very basic understanding of the situation. The IFA has done sweet FA down home anyway about this situation. Why would you bite the hand that feeds you? Far too many pockets too close to one another.
I suppose export is the only bit of the beef industry really outside of this?

BTW I am willing to stand corrected on all the above points. I have a rudimentary understanding (if at all ) of the situation.

bbam

I think it's hard to hide that the IFA have a confiloct if interest wen it comes to protesting at the gate of the processing plants.
Also it was enlightening to see the large lads who are renting facilities to Larry being defended, how could we deny them a living made from this cozy setup. Well the IFA seem quite happy to seethe smaller farmers being squashed so this cozy arrament is being maintained to support larger facilities - this shows where the IFA loyalties lie, with the larger men. The small man can be squeezed from existence as long as you get to protect the cronies.
It definitely seems that Larry has the IFA in a compromising position which they are happy to support as it meets their own ends - money !

rancher

case 956 wrote: »

Rancher that was a very ignorant reply on your behalf to me, calling someone lazy cause they wont hit the streets of Dublin to protest with ye... some of us active young farmers are too busy running our business and trying making it viable as we can with all the levies and price cuts we are faced with..it was a long time ago since ye had 20,000 protesting... What am I doing about what? one single voice of mine is no good, but I tell you I haven't paid any ifa membersip fees or levies since November last, when I had a ifa man out canvassing for election last autumn I showed him the gate because in my opinion yer worse than the shower in the dail, ALL PROMISES NO ACTION. IFA is a organisation set up to help as no 2 on ifa cosituation and rules: to secure adequate living in line with the prevailing standards, economic and social for the maximum number of families living on the land, to fight for our rights and negoate on behave of farming familie, yer doing none of that letting the fattories walk over the beef farmer who is struggling and in adverse if it continues struggle to feed his family, ifa doing nothing as if they were this beef situation be fought against, ifa are happy to collect levies and m fees.

Firstly I consider your post abusive and secondly to me saying that we're sitting on our arses is the same as calling someone lazy, probably even worse.
As for doing nothing...we organised and paid for the transport of fodder to a lot of hard pressed farmers last spring, a lot more help was given than got in the papers. If ordinary farmers arranged a depot, we got the fodder to them
We resisted Ciolos proposals to cut our SFP budget to give to other poorer countries and got it nearly back to the original amount. If Ciolos got his way., SFP wouldn't be worth fighting over in Ireland.
We lobbied for a system to ensure that farmers SFP income wouldn't be reduced by up to 50% in one year.
We opposed regionalisation and no one has to claim 2or3 ha to claim one entitlement just because they have bad land.
We got huge cofunding on Pillar2, when every politician told us we hadn't a hope....and who do you think the govt, is looking to for direction in the new Glas scheme....
We're trying to reduce the tax paid by farmers on the forced sale of their entitlements, we're also involved in the new tax review.
We're working on a land use policy, to encourage land transfer and younger farmers.
We're negotiating a charter of rights for farmer in inspections and working for loads of farmers trying to reduce the impact of eligible land overclaims.
And that is only a small part of what's going on and I think we've delivered a huge amount in the last year

Face facts, if you were the factories and cattle being thrown at you, would you be bothered talking to anyone only customers

paddysdream

Mad4simmental wrote: »

paddysdream wrote: »

How could they sell at a lower cost if they had to pay more for stock?

If you remove the profit of the factory, it works both ways, can afford to pay a little bit more. Contract beef so mr x and mr y knows what they are getting.
As for expansion ect I believe many small factory's would be better than one big one. It's only an idea what elce do you see being any good?
The way things are now the factory's hold the power and that's it. As one previous poster put it
we can protest, won't work
We can block factory gates, won't work,
What elce is there??

Sounds good but;(am pretty good at the glass half empty type of thing!)

Selling out the finished product is reliant on the purchaser paying what you think you need,not what they believe they can get it for.

This may come as a shock to some farmers but(that word again) this is how it works in agriculture and some but not a lot of other sectors;

End retailer decides what he can pay for meat and sell with a good margin(forget loss leaders,offers etc for the minute)
Factory then can work out what to pay for cattle to leave a margin after costs(big as possible but hey thats life!)
Finisher/weanling producer then; OOPS this is the bit where we get a sharp dose of economics.

In the real world factories KNOW that many farmers will continue to produce raw materials for them regardless.
How many posters on here are part time or trot out the old "keeping down tax" "weekend r and r" "building up the farm" "investing in the future" "shur what else could I be at " stories?

rancher

bbam wrote: »

I think it's hard to hide that the IFA have a confiloct if interest wen it comes to protesting at the gate of the processing plants.
Also it was enlightening to see the large lads who are renting facilities to Larry being defended, how could we deny them a living made from this cozy setup. Well the IFA seem quite happy to seethe smaller farmers being squashed so this cozy arrament is being maintained to support larger facilities - this shows where the IFA loyalties lie, with the larger men. The small man can be squeezed from existence as long as you get to protect the cronies.
It definitely seems that Larry has the IFA in a compromising position which they are happy to support as it meets their own ends - money !

Hard to hide that the farmers you mean have a conflict of interest when it comes to protesting at the gate of the processing plants.....pathetic turnout at the last one.
I was often very glad to rent my sheds, we didn't have big SFPs in the 80s when interest rates were up to 18%. I wouldn't have thought a lot of any one messing with my customers,

bbam

rancher wrote: »

Hard to hide that the farmers you mean have a conflict of interest when it comes to protesting at the gate of the processing plants.....pathetic turnout at the last one

Perhaps..
But that's probably as much a message of unhappiness with the IFA than any other message.

I deal with small farmers every day in my job. And the overriding message is exactly what I see demonstrated here.
The IFA is an organisation constructed and executed to protect the positions of the top 10%-20% of farmers.. Small farmers in marginal areas are completely disillusioned with it as a representing body and are turning away from it.

The biggest shout in the propaganda list above is about protecting payments. Its widely known that these same top tier of farms are creaming off a disproportionate amount and so the IFA will fight their case, just as it is they rather than the smaller beef producer who were defended in earlier posts.

The IFA movement has recently been described to me like the NAZI party in 1940's Germany, there to serve the few at the expense of all. Many are members simply because there is no alternative rather than they think its a great organisation. Membership numbers is not the same as outright support, as can be seen by numbers turning out.

Greengrass1

Father was talking to a friend of his today. Went to the protest that was on in Dublin and had 60 fat cattle at the time.
He still has them. Didn't do him any good

Farmer Pudsey

First I like to state I do think the IFA can do little about the low prices there at present. My biggest issue is they seem to have a huge blockage about preventing from controlling the kill by keeping huge amount of cattle in feedlots.

The UK competition Authority has ordered Ryanair to dispose of its share in Aer Lingus as it is anti-competitive. It is the same with the factory's owning cattle in feedlots and owning feedlots themselves. I have no issues with factory;s giving contracts to feeders I have a huge issue with them owning the amount of cattle they have over the last 12 months.

The IFA are the lead farm organisation or so they always tell us. But they are standing well back from this one. It all very well throwing remarks about interfering in people business but when they are involved in distorting the market then something needs to be done. If the CA rules against it and the IFA follow it to Europe and they rule against it well and good, but I get the feeling they want nothing to do with this, why?

Is it because the powers that be do not want any interference with the present set up. The factory's are very deliberate when they buy cattle and have them finished they target the time to control the market like this year. The so called beef regulator was a pie in the sky idea. The reality is that it would be impossible to set up a new factory in competition with the present factory's especially if we look at the history of farmer owed factory's.

This issue with Factory's now buying calves is a deliberate attempt to squeeze producer margins. They the factory cannot make a profit for the money invested due to labour costs etc. However this will reduce store prices next Sept 12 months. Finishers can now expect that the factory's will target having about 30-50K cattle for finish from December every year and they can back up supply and you will have to send in you cattle when they tell you at there price and it will not matter whether the kill is 25K,27K or 33K/week.

case 956

rancher wrote: »

.
We lobbied for a system to ensure that farmers SFP income wouldn't be reduced by up to 50% in one year.

ye wouldn't have done that only the larger farmers would suffer, the small man is thrown in the corner and forgot about.

rancher wrote: »

Hard to hide that the farmers you mean have a conflict of interest when it comes to protesting at the gate of the processing plants.....pathetic turnout at the last one.


Not everyone can go on your day trips to protest, majority of beef and sheep farmers are part time because there business isn't viable to support a mortage and feed a family because of factories and others walking all over them when they like and a dairy farmer to go on a trip has to get someone in too milk for them costing money and for what a waste of a day away with no results shown afterwards

As for my post been abusive it not to be I expressing my view point about the ifa and I very well entitled to, whether you agree with it or not is up to yourself, I could call your reply back to my post as abusive if that was the case.

rancher

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

First I like to state I do not think the IFA can do little about the low prices there at present. My biggest issue is they seem to have a huge blockage about preventing from controlling the kill by keeping huge amount of cattle in feedlots.

The UK competition Authority has ordered Ryanair to dispose of its share in Aer Lingus as it is anti-competitive. It is the same with the factory's owning cattle in feedlots and owning feedlots themselves. I have no issues with factory;s giving contracts to feeders I have a huge issue with them owning the amount of cattle they have over the last 12 months.

The IFA are the lead farm organisation or so they always tell us. But they are standing well back from this one. It all very well throwing remarks about interfering in people business but when they are involved in distorting the market then something needs to be done. If the CA rules against it and the IFA follow it to Europe and they rule against it well and good, but I get the feeling they want nothing to do with this, why?

Is it because the powers that be do not want any interference with the present set up. The factory's are very deliberate when they buy cattle and have them finished they target the time to control the market like this year. The so called beef regulator was a pie in the sky idea. The reality is that it would be impossible to set up a new factory in competition with the present factory's especially if we look at the history of farmer owed factory's.

This issue with Factory's now buying calves is a deliberate attempt to squeeze producer margins. They the factory cannot make a profit for the money invested due to labour costs etc. However this will reduce store prices next Sept 12 months. Finishers can now expect that the factory's will target having about 30-50K cattle for finish from December every year and they can back up supply and you will have to send in you cattle when they tell you at there price and it will not matter whether the kill is 25K,27K or 33K/week.

Even though I don't agree, I pushed it yesterday and there was no support for it.. a cross section of 50 farmers...... It can't be we're all mad except Farmer Pudsey
As a sheep farmer I think the organisation is spending too much time on beef and I'm wasting too much time here on this thread....so good luck

Round Bale

rancher wrote: »

Even though I don't agree, I pushed it yesterday and there was no support for it.. a cross section of 50 farmers...... It can't be we're all mad except Farmer Pudsey

No support as in 100% no support. Or some support as in say 40% support and 60% no support.
How many nay Sayers were beef farmers, who are bleeding from their pockets because of the beef processing monopoly and market manipulation?
I'll tell you and I wasn't there! None!!!
These IFA officers who do not support this, need to stand up in front of beef farmers and explain their positions. No more behind closed doors nonsense.

rancher

Round Bale wrote: »

No support as in 100% no support. Or some support as in say 40% support and 60% no support.
How many nay Sayers were beef farmers, who are bleeding from their pockets because of the beef processing monopoly and market manipulation?
I'll tell you and I wasn't there! None!!!
These IFA officers who do not support this, need to stand up in front of beef farmers and explain their positions. No more behind closed doors nonsense.

I've told you all here before....get a resolution up from your county, why is it not coming from the members.
I've said before, you have to put in an effort, have to be involved
I had reps from the local factories at a beef meeting a mth ago...120 farmers and no one said boo to the reps.
What do you do

bbam

rancher wrote: »

I've told you all here before....get a resolution up from your county, why is it not coming from the members.
I've said before, you have to put in an effort, have to be involved
I had reps from the local factories at a beef meeting a mth ago...120 farmers and no one said boo to the reps.
What do you do

No resolution coming up because farmers don't believe that either they will be listened to nor that the powers in the IFA have any desire to topple the current soft money they are getting..
There seems to be a consistent ignoring of the fact that farmers in general have lost faith in the IFA organisation.. many are leaving, many are asking subs not to be lifted.. MAny will stay because they feel they are better in bed with the devil than on their own..

dealerman

just one small contribution to say about the ifa thats all NOT A MEMBER
was in a mart last december henry burns the livestock head was at mart canvassing for a candiate
Henry took the roosterm(bad speller i know)he said the beef price factories were paying was appaling english prices were hundrerds ahead of us and what they were doing to bulls was all wrong
he promised us faithly he would get a better price for all cattle
that was 4 months ago lets look at what happened
cows price collapse
heifers price collapse
bullocks price collapse and god for bid they over age or weight
bulls price COLLAPSE

rancher

bbam wrote: »

No resolution coming up because farmers don't believe that either they will be listened to nor that the powers in the IFA have any desire to topple the current soft money they are getting..
There seems to be a consistent ignoring of the fact that farmers in general have lost faith in the IFA organisation.. many are leaving, many are asking subs not to be lifted.. MAny will stay because they feel they are better in bed with the devil than on their own..

Sure we'll struggle on so

bbam

rancher wrote: »

Sure we'll struggle on so

Collecting the subs and submitting the expenses. Some struggle I'd say

paddysdream

Not on here to defend the IFA man(well able to do that for himself) but what exactly do you want them to do?

Everybody on here is saying that something must be done and IFA etc are useless but what are the solutions as people on here seem to think they have the answer?

As regards the levy;well cancel it and start a new farmers union or try one of the 2 other ones and see if they are better.

Will agree that the IFA are rather quiet on the subject at the moment but was always told that if you don't know the answer either say so or keep your mouth closed.

And as for this arguement that the IFA etc are only interested in the"big fella" well around here can tell you for a fact that those involved heavily have,in the main,less sub money coming in than a lot of farmers,myself included.5 minutes googling will tell you exactly what SFP any farmer in the EU collects ,including those in Bluebell Dublin 12.
Take for example the newly elected leader;anyone hazard a guess at his SFP without looking?

rancher

rancher wrote: »

.
We lobbied for a system to ensure that farmers SFP income wouldn't be reduced by up to 50% in one year.

rancher wrote: »

.

case 956 wrote: »

ye wouldn't have done that only the larger farmers would suffer, the small man is thrown in the corner and forgot about

case 956 wrote: »

.If you're a dairy farmer, you're better off than I am, so don't be playing the small farmer card, your sector has been protected since the 80s so its time the cards were dealt my way for a change.

rancher

paddysdream wrote: »

Not on here to defend the IFA man(well able to do that for himself) but what exactly do you want them to do?

Everybody on here is saying that something must be done and IFA etc are useless but what are the solutions as people on here seem to think they have the answer?

As regards the levy;well cancel it and start a new farmers union or try one of the 2 other ones and see if they are better.

Will agree that the IFA are rather quiet on the subject at the moment but was always told that if you don't know the answer either say so or keep your mouth closed.

And as for this arguement that the IFA etc are only interested in the"big fella" well around here can tell you for a fact that those involved heavily have,in the main,less sub money coming in than a lot of farmers,myself included.5 minutes googling will tell you exactly what SFP any farmer in the EU collects ,including those in Bluebell Dublin 12.
Take for example the newly elected leader;anyone hazard a guess at his SFP without looking?

Well done, finally some cop on, Don't know what it is but I know he worked very hard, his father died young and he educated his siblings and he's not a rich dairy farmer