Are we in 1930's Mississippi?

J_E

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

The ideal would be colour-blindness,

No, it wouldn't. As I've posted before, 'colourblindness' is nearly as bad as racism itself. It's feigning ignorance, pretending that we're 'all the same', but we're not. The human race is incredibly diverse, why try to mask that out? You're still going to make underlying judgements about people based on their appearance and presentation - the difference is knowing your own prejudices and working on them, rather than pretending they don't exist.

Ok. But why? Because he's black?

Not just because he's just black, no. Probably because he speaks from similar experience and also sees things through a POC (people of colour) view, rather than looking down on a group you can't relate to. There is a distinct difference. It's the same difference between say, a person from a socioeconomically disadvantaged area pushing through and becoming successful in life giving advice to other kids who might be in that situation, and a person who grew up from a rich family with little worries trying to do the same.

I'm oversimplifying here, but I hope you see what I mean.

crockholm

Cydoniac wrote: »

Yes, because that is in an entirely different context to a bunch of white angry/concerned people.

A lot of the people doing the hiring may well be White angry/concerned people.

It was added because of the claim being made that people would not critisize an aspect of black youth Culture whereas they would do so more freely with someone from a traveller background.

And in that respect,you see the immaturity shown by traveller leadership (pavee Point) in being too blinded/winsome/disingenuous/cowardly to acknowledge the serious failings internally in traveller communities. I can understand why he(Collins) would prefer to push the positive aspects of his Community,and to show how they are a part of Irelands cultural fabric.

The problem is that he oft appears to duck his head in the sand when the negative aspects get mentioned-and again going back to the black Community in the US,there are no shortage of prominent black people who speak out strongly against the nefarious internal and external factors that hurt their Community.

It is closely paralled with folks here in Ireland who see the RCC as largely blameless and Point to "a few bad apples" and secularism/atheism as being behind it all.We know this is a crock of shyt position and we don't buy it,we want honesty for starters-and the same goes for PP.

Stavros Murphy

Cydoniac wrote: »

No, it wouldn't. As I've posted before, 'colourblindness' is nearly as bad as racism itself. It's feigning ignorance, pretending that we're 'all the same', but we're not. The human race is incredibly diverse, why try to mask that out? You're still going to make underlying judgements about people based on their appearance and presentation - the difference is knowing your own prejudices and working on them, rather than pretending they don't exist.

Not just because he's just black, no. Probably because he speaks from similar experience and also sees things through a POC (people of colour) view, rather than looking down on a group you can't relate to. There is a distinct difference. It's the same difference between say, a person from a socioeconomically disadvantaged area pushing through and becoming successful in life giving advice to other kids who might be in that situation, and a person who grew up from a rich family with little worries trying to do the same.

I'm oversimplifying here, but I hope you see what I mean.

Millionaire comedian? Yeah, right. Can you see the screen from up there?

Stavros Murphy

crockholm wrote: »

A lot of the people doing the hiring may well be White angry/concerned people.

It was added because of the claim being made that people would not critisize an aspect of black youth Culture whereas they would do so more freely with someone from a traveller background.

And in that respect,you see the immaturity shown by traveller leadership (pavee Point) in being too blinded/winsome/disingenuous/cowardly to acknowledge the serious failings internally in traveller communities. I can understand why he(Collins) would prefer to push the positive aspects of his Community,and to show how they are a part of Irelands cultural fabric.

The problem is that he oft appears to duck his head in the sand when the negative aspects get mentioned-and again going back to the black Community in the US,there are no shortage of prominent black people who speak out strongly against the nefarious internal and external factors that hurt their Community.

It is closely paralled with folks here in Ireland who see the RCC as largely blameless and Point to "a few bad apples" and secularism/atheism as being behind it all.We know this is a crock of shyt position and we don't buy it,we want honesty for starters-and the same goes for PP.

Every time I see Collins speak, I kinda cringe. He's done his best to swallow the buzz-word dictionary and so comes across as false. If he comes across as false on that, what else is he false on? I'd prefer if he was honest, which he doesn't come across as, IMO. He speaks from his ar5e, rather than his heart.

J_E

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

Millionaire comedian? Yeah, right. Can you see the screen from up there?

Was he born a millionaire? No, he worked his way up.

crockholm wrote: »

And in that respect,you see the immaturity shown by traveller leadership (pavee Point) in being too blinded/winsome/disingenuous/cowardly to acknowledge the serious failings internally in traveller communities. I can understand why he(Collins) would prefer to push the positive aspects of his Community,and to show how they are a part of Irelands cultural fabric.
.

Absolutely, smiling and dismissing issues isn't going to change anything. This whole deal with feuding families needs to be sorted out bigtime, because it's not so much seeping as much as spewing into society at large.

crockholm

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

Every time I see Collins speak, I kinda cringe. He's done his best to swallow the buzz-word dictionary and so comes across as false. If he comes across as false on that, what else is he false on? I'd prefer if he was honest, which he doesn't come across as, IMO. He speaks from his ar5e, rather than his heart.

And I Believe that it is reflected by the 90%+ of posters on this thread who find him equally unpalatable.

WilyCoyote

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Lol? Proud PC Brigader here and I would have no problems with them next door.

Joeytheparrot, I presume that you are a very nice non judgemental male, female et al. But FFS, have you ever driven through Rathkeale, Mullingar, Granard, Tuam and noticed the standard of life of the locals being impinged upon by the Travellers? If you haven't, you should rename yourself Joeytheostrich!
All of the above IMHO

FTA69

crockholm wrote: »

You will find that Bill Cosby is often known to call for black kids to drop the silly slang talk. He feels that it may lead to the youth being unprepared and inarticulate to pass interveiws and a hinderance when dealing with the public.

Little or no uproar,and rightly so.

There's a difference between a black comedian challenging negative behaviour in the black community in a positive way and Brenda Power suggesting that all Travellers are violent lazy drunks. Power's article was the epitome of tarring people with the same brush and she was bang out of order in doing so.

Stavros Murphy

crockholm wrote: »

And I Believe that it is reflected by the 90%+ of posters on this thread who find him equally unpalatable.

I don't find him unpalatable, I find him false. If he was more open and honest, I'd listen more to what he has to say. Every grouping has "spokespersons" and often they're needed/vaguely useful/handy for a quick quote. Sadly, going down the Comical Ali route of pretending/ignoring/being "on-message" 100% despite the universe and its dog seeing that you're not telling it as it is tends to have the opposite effect.

That said, he's far from alone in that feature - grab a FG/FF/OO/NRA spokesman and you'll get a similar level of "on-message" and one sidedness. Probably goes with the job.

FTA69

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X41Wkzr6fic

The above is a link to a documentary done by American anthropologists who in the 1960s lived in a trailer on a halting site for a year. They return to Ireland forty years later to meet the people they stayed with and re-examine the situation of Travellers today. It's a fantastic documentary, and believe it or not, not every Pavee they come across is a degenerate criminal.

J_E

FTA69 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X41Wkzr6fic

The above is a link to a documentary done by American anthropologists who in the 1960s lived in a trailer on a halting site for a year. They return to Ireland forty years later to meet the people they stayed with and re-examine the situation of Travellers today. It's a fantastic documentary, and believe it or not, not every Pavee they come across is a degenerate criminal.

You know, I don't think people are suggesting every traveller is a cretin, but the problem is enough are to cause some concern and a need to address some issues.

Cienciano

On the high unemployment rates, there's a big difference between being registered as unemployed and not working.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/80-of-travellers-unemployed-cso-211310.html
90% of males are unemployed. If I go into a halting site during the day will I find 90% of males hanging around, or will they be all off in their vans looking for work?

FTA69

Cydoniac wrote: »

You know, I don't think people are suggesting every traveller is a cretin, but the problem is enough are to cause some concern and a need to address some issues.

But a lot of people are suggesting that. Look back through this thread and you will see umpteen comments where people are saying it's "the majority" of them involved in criminality as well as defending Power's article which generalises all of them as cretins. There's plenty of people well able to have a hysterical and mass view of them as a people.

Muise...

Thread title is rhetorical, I realise that, but the analogies are not getting us anywhere; all we are doing is comparing random details of one complex situation (Travellers in Ireland) with another (post-slavery African Americans). The ethnic rebranding of Travellers is one I find dishonest and motivated, extremely cynically, by the protections afforded to ethnic minorities in Irish and international laws. I think I'd rather live beside a halting site than accept that kind of academia.

It would be a lot more helpful to address the situation head-on, as it is, 2010s Ireland, with a small subsection of the population trapped (by pride as well as circumstance) in poverty, poor sanitation and related health problems, illiteracy, unemployment - I'm sure there's more, but no amount of racial redesignation or comparison is going to help.

J_E

To be honest, I think one of the key issues is education and consequently, unemployment, leading to the anti social behaviour and crime that seems to be synonymous with the community. If you have any group of people who aren't adequately educated to face the world, of course there are going to be problems. I've seen it time and time again that many traveller kids often leave after Junior Cert, are expelled for breaking the rules, or just don't do well enough in Leaving Cert for it to be worth anything at all.

Is the traveller way of life not incompatible with Ireland today? Even in the documentary above you can see that.

orchidsrpretty

No racism here. Prejudice? Yes.

Muise...

Cydoniac wrote: »

To be honest, I think one of the key issues is education and consequently, unemployment, leading to the anti social behaviour and crime that seems to be synonymous with the community. If you have any group of people who aren't adequately educated to face the world, of course there are going to be problems. I've seen it time and time again that many traveller kids often leave after Junior Cert, are expelled for breaking the rules, or just don't do well enough in Leaving Cert for it to be worth anything at all.

Is the traveller way of life not incompatible with Ireland today? Even in the documentary above you can see that.

Your first paragraph answers the second. With the right education and upskilling, being a nomadic/seasonal freelance worker would be feasible. For individuals anyway.

FTA69

Cydoniac wrote: »

Is the traveller way of life not incompatible with Ireland today? Even in the documentary above you can see that.

There has definitely been a massive destabilising effect on their community as a result of modernisation which I believe is the cause of much of the problems we see today. The struggle for them now is to marry the positive aspects of their culture with society as it is today; clinging to nomadism is no longer feasible really hence the tiny minority of them still engaged in it.

J_E

FTA69 wrote: »

There has definitely been a massive destabilising effect on their community as a result of modernisation which I believe is the cause of much of the problems we see today. The struggle for them now is to marry the positive aspects of their culture with society as it is today; clinging to nomadism is no longer feasible really hence the tiny minority of them still engaged in it.

The whole Americanisation thing is embarrassing too - the culture has some very deep roots but that's hard to see when you spot a group with fake Chanel earrings and leopard print tracksuits, or the Nike set and cap. It's that association that people make and are repulsed by. Thought it was also interesting that the anthropologists note that 40 years ago the weddings were humble and now they're all about how big the dress/suit and carriage can get.

5live

Cydoniac wrote: »

The whole Americanisation thing is embarrassing too - the culture has some very deep roots but that's hard to see when you spot a group with fake Chanel earrings and leopard print tracksuits, or the Nike set and cap. It's that association that people make and are repulsed by. Thought it was also interesting that the anthropologists note that 40 years ago the weddings were humble and now they're all about how big the dress/suit and carriage can get.

Thats an interesting point.

What exactly is traveller culture? In the past, it would be described as nomadic with members doing some metalwork and trading horses to make a living with their own language to communicate with but also a reluctance to educate their children and marrying young and living in less than ideal conditions.

What is traveller culture now and what in that culture is of benefit to society as a whole? The horse trading and metalwork trades are obsolete and now it seems that dole culture has replaced it. Harsh maybe, but, without the monetary pressure to change, has their culture turned inwards and become focused on detrimental aspects of their culture?

Society has changed and the traveller culture hasn't changed, at least into something productive. As you pointed out above, it can change but the change must be into something positive.

J_E

5live wrote: »

Thats an interesting point.

What exactly is traveller culture? In the past, it would be described as nomadic with members doing some metalwork and trading horses to make a living with their own language to communicate with but also a reluctance to educate their children and marrying young and living in less than ideal conditions.

What is traveller culture now and what in that culture is of benefit to society as a whole? The horse trading and metalwork trades are obsolete and now it seems that dole culture has replaced it. Harsh maybe, but, without the monetary pressure to change, has their culture turned inwards and become focused on detrimental aspects of their culture?

Society has changed and the traveller culture hasn't changed, at least into something productive. As you pointed out above, it can change but the change must be into something positive.

Yep, that's pretty much what I'm getting at, Ireland has changed radically over the last few decades, there is just this feeling that being a traveller in the traditional sense is an obsolete lifestyle in terms of making it work. You can't get by on the likes of small-time craft and handyman jobs anymore.

What is modern traveller culture? To an outsider, all that can be seen is the family feuds, welfare culture, and a lack of education among groups. Which may not be entirely the truth, but unfortunately this is the group that is causing all of the trouble.

Stavros Murphy

Cydoniac wrote: »

Yep, that's pretty much what I'm getting at, Ireland has changed radically over the last few decades, there is just this feeling that being a traveller in the traditional sense is an obsolete lifestyle in terms of making it work. You can't get by on the likes of small-time craft and handyman jobs anymore.

What is modern traveller culture? To an outsider, all that can be seen is the family feuds, welfare culture, and a lack of education among groups. Which may not be entirely the truth, but unfortunately this is the group that is causing all of the trouble.

You need to catch a ferry heading to the continent, the one into Zeebrugge will do. If you're lucky, you'll get the same one the Travvellers use returning to their full-time "jobs" - it is like a military organisation, chock full of 4*4s and trailers with the senior men deciding where to go by having a good scan of the wall-maps in the ferry lobbies.

Destinations decided, they fan out to the chosen countries where they go to work, tarmacing, spray painting, dealing in tools and machinery, antiques and horses. Some, but by no means a majority, deal in illicit stock such as tobacco and whatever, but "poor", "silly" and "disorganised" do not even come close. They only return at certain times of year for a "holiday" and for weddings.

The ones bouncing around Ireland robbing and acting the clown are the small fry and generally the wasters and ne'er do wells that other Travvelers look down on and shake their heads at as "fools". Very few settled people would go to the lengths Travvelers go to to make a buck, but their methods are opposite to what settled people see as acceptable. And not all do shoddy work either. Some do though, there you go.

If for example it was widely known that Irelands best and wealthiest antiques dealer was a travveler, or that they have the biggest and wealthiest caravan dealers, deal in serious money horses - not the pieballs scratching around the fields, have tarmac outfits stretching across the entire USA, and spray-painting outfits.. A lot of Travvelers work their holes off to make a buck.


They're the ones you don't see though, you just see dopey out robbing copper cylinders and fighting his cousin on the high street.

mikom

5live wrote: »

What is traveller culture now and what in that culture is of benefit to society as a whole?

Sellin' tools?


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/faces-of-five-people-charged-over-spate-of-thefts-30185625.html

Czarcasm

Having dealings with travellers all my life, I'd have to say they're no better or no worse than people in the settled community.

The behaviour of a minority by and large is focussed on because decent people don't draw attention to themselves.

I've lived beside travellers in the past, had relationships with traveller girls, played sports with traveller guys, worked with them, never had any issues or negative experiences...

BUT (there's always a 'but'), there's a minority of the current generation of travellers coming up now and they're more brazing, more violent, laissez-faire, living up to a social stereotype and trying to establish a 'name' for themselves by being disrespectful, intimidating, thieving, ill educated, selfish, 'entitled to their rights'... so no different really to the minority in the settled community that are without hope, that are the most visible element in society.

conorhal

Czarcasm wrote: »

Having dealings with travellers all my life, I'd have to say they're no better or no worse than people in the settled community.

The behaviour of a minority by and large is focussed on because decent people don't draw attention to themselves.

I've lived beside travellers in the past, had relationships with traveller girls, played sports with traveller guys, worked with them, never had any issues or negative experiences...

BUT (there's always a 'but'), there's a minority of the current generation of travellers coming up now and they're more brazing, more violent, laissez-faire, living up to a social stereotype and trying to establish a 'name' for themselves by being disrespectful, intimidating, thieving, ill educated, selfish, 'entitled to their rights'... so no different really to the minority in the settled community that are without hope, that are the most visible element in society.

That minority is quite sizable though, and growing.
What many people refuse to talk about is how the downward spiral of the travelling comunity has largely coincided with their increesing involvement in the drugs trade. It's had a massive impact both within and without on fueding and the extreme levels of violence involved.

SEPT 23 1989

drain_cleaner wrote: »

its all very well saying " travellers are no better or worse than settle people " but the facts speak for themselves

12% of the traveller population have spent time in prison , 85% of travellers are offically unemployed

your experience is clearly not representitive of the general population

29% of male adult travellers have been through the prison system

Ash.J.Williams

efb wrote: »

If it was rehousing Jewish community what would the reaction be?

THe jews are fine to live beside.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Czarcasm

conorhal wrote: »

That minority is quite sizable though, and growing.
What many people refuse to talk about is how the downward spiral of the travelling comunity has largely coincided with their increesing involvement in the drugs trade. It's had a massive impact both within and without on fueding and the extreme levels of violence involved.

You're absolutely right conor, the increase in drugs involvement among the travelling community has had a dramatic effect on the perception of the travelling community as a whole, but the thing is - is that increase in drug involvement and violence, lack of education, etc, exclusive to the travelling community? Is it even more prevalent among the traveller community?

I'd have to say 'no', because it's just as much an issue among the settled community. I think before we go looking to say "Oh it's them!", you can either default to lazy stereotypes, or you can take people on a case by case basis.

Actually what inspired me to contribute to this thread was an incident earlier today where I was out in a housing estate where there's a halting site near the estate, and myself and my son were waiting for the bus back into town, when we were approached by a traveller in his mid-20's. He gave the usual "How much for the phone? How much for the laptop?" shìte, and this went on for a bit until the bus approached (during this time he also tried to gain entry to a furniture removal lorry that had parked across the road).

As the bus approached, the driver spotted the traveller, sped up and drove on, leaving myself, my son, and the traveller standing there. The traveller then flagged down a passing taxi, who refused to carry him, and when he came back I said to him he was better off waiting for the bus, as the taxi would've cost him a fortune. His reply? "Oh I wasn't gonna pay for it, kick his fcukin' head in!" Next thing another traveller passed up on a bicycle, and the traveller took the bike off him and cycled into town.

How do I know he cycled into town? The same chap just there now while I was waiting outside a shop for my wife to come out, he rolled up to a busker playing a few yards away from me and started ruffling through the buskers guitar bag on the ground. The busker was only a young lad and I didn't have my son with me at this stage (the reason I couldn't do a whole lot earlier), so this time I went over and told him to clear off, but it was too late as the busker had already packed away his guitar while I was talking to the traveller.

This is the sort of intimidatory behaviour I meant earlier when I said there's a small minority of travellers playing up to a stereotype and that sort of behaviour is the stuff the media focus on, whereas I know I could walk up to the same halting site and there are travellers there would be ashamed of this chap's behaviour, and ironically enough want to kick seven colors of shìte out of the little scrote, but you can't be encouraging that behaviour either because it teaches them nothing.

The Gardaí as great as they are then can't act without evidence of criminal behaviour either, and if I were to make an official complaint, I know travellers will circle the caravans and scream about their rights being infringed.

Unfortunately like I said, this sort of attitude and behaviour isn't exclusive to the traveller culture. It's also well ingrained among the settled community.

Padraig Mor

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I've seen figures showing that Travellers are approx. 10 times more likely to be in prison that non-Travellers.