Good economic news thread

FreudianSlippers

listermint wrote: »

Read my post again. please before insulting my intelligence.

EDITED

I do understand what tax haven is, i was using the term as a perception....

I don't know what "using the term as a perception" means, but I'll bite...

A country that offers foreign individuals and businesses little or no tax liability in a politically and economically stable environment. Tax havens also provide little or no financial information to foreign tax authorities. Individuals and businesses that do not reside a tax haven can take advantage of these countries' tax regimes to avoid paying taxes in their home countries. Tax havens do not require that an individual reside in or a business operate out of that country in order to benefit from its tax policies.

Read more: Tax Haven Definition | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxhaven.asp#ixzz3szDufjEk

So, no... I don't think you know what a tax haven is.

Let's look at this shall we?

1) Little to no tax liability - well 12.5% might be low, but it's certainly not "little to [none]" - as a comparison the Cayman Islands (a tax haven) have a whopping 0%; Canada (not a tax haven) blended rate of 11-16% depending on a number of factors.
2) Little or no financial information to foreign tax authorities - another whammy here for you on this one, The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.
3) do not require that an individual reside in or a business operate out of that country - but we do.

0/3 = not a tax haven.

I in no way indicated that the companies where [sic] not paying tax here ? can you explain where i said that.

Yeah, no problem actually - you said:

if it becomes clearer that we are a tax haven for their multinationals.

in fact if you had read the post you would see that was my reference for the boon in the finances....

So we're like Schrödinger's Tax Haven - somehow both a tax haven and not a tax haven at the same time until you figure out which one you want it to be?

As i said the likes of the Allergan do not benefit us optically to the US, this is not a 'good thing'

So what? What can anyone do about it? So long as we continue to not be a tax haven there's sweet **** all anyone can do.

K-9

Mod:

Keep the replies civil please, thank you.

FreudianSlippers

K-9 wrote: »

I think the Allergen case is an example, that's using a system to book profits here and the optics aren't great. A bit of clever accounting would increase our tax take and nothing else, a paper exercise really.

That's certainly an issue for international tax law and the accounting of profits, but I don't see much that can be done in the short-term to do anything about it.

So long as these companies are not attempting the "double Irish" by then moving these profits to the Caymans (etc) and avoiding tax altogether, then we should be enjoying this situation whilst we can!

FreudianSlippers

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

Keep the replies civil please, thank you.

My bad, genuinely thought this was a Cafe thread! I edited the post.

K-9

Well enjoy it while we can is a short term view and just as others matched or beat our CT rates, others can match or beat our rules.

FreudianSlippers

K-9 wrote: »

Well enjoy it while we can is a short term view and just as others matched or beat our CT rates, others can match or beat our rules.

I didn't mean to imply that we should be lax in terms of competitiveness, but to suggest this level of movement will continue is unrealistic.

Of course we must do everything we can to ensure that we are competitive in this area, but the question must then change to whether we want to become a tax haven?

K-9

True, another thing is we often bemoan the performance of indigenous companies and how multinationals account for so much exports etc. but things like Pfizer makes it difficult, maybe impossible, for them to compete or increase percentages.

Tea drinker

K-9 wrote: »

We are such an open economy though that just as sometimes there isn't much any Government can do about poor performance from external factors, the opposite has to apply to.

It will be interesting to see a detailed analysis of the CT figures in particular, 10 huge multinationals provide a big chunk of that revenue but if we could be in a position to eliminate the budget deficit next year, that's pretty spectacular.

It's too early for that Pharma inversion to affect the figures?
Is it worrying that Trump is campaigning on stopping the loss of US MNC to abroad, especially Ireland?
But yeah good news for now at least........

listermint

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

EDITED


I don't know what "using the term as a perception" means, but I'll bite...



So, no... I don't think you know what a tax haven is.

Let's look at this shall we?

1) Little to no tax liability - well 12.5% might be low, but it's certainly not "little to [none]" - as a comparison the Cayman Islands (a tax haven) have a whopping 0%; Canada (not a tax haven) blended rate of 11-16% depending on a number of factors.
2) Little or no financial information to foreign tax authorities - another whammy here for you on this one, The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.
3) do not require that an individual reside in or a business operate out of that country - but we do.

0/3 = not a tax haven.


Yeah, no problem actually - you said:



So we're like Schrödinger's Tax Haven - somehow both a tax haven and not a tax haven at the same time until you figure out which one you want it to be?


So what? What can anyone do about it? So long as we continue to not be a tax haven there's sweet **** all anyone can do.

I think you know what i meant when i said it, I meant that there is a greater perception in the US because of this and deals like Allergan that we are a 'tax haven' (perception)

But you chose to question my intelligence and again on a second post in response to me.

I appreciate you edited it now. But as i said, will you please read my post first before reading my username and jumping to a response.

Thanks.





Clarifying what i said and why i said it.

K-9

I think the US brought in some changes recently but didn't effect the likes of Pfizer. Whatever about Trump I'd say it is an area that is going to come in for increasing attention in the US.

daithi7

The Allergen deal is a mixed blessing for Ireland imho, not great for reputational damage limitation but probably good for corporate tax receipts over the short and medium term anyway. On reputational damage, even though Ireland is a small country, we probably shouldn't get too self conscious as a nation imho, Britain and the UK are by far and away the biggest beneficiaries of so termed large tax inversions, according to a recent piece by the economist, (with about 9 of the top ~20 such takeovers by size, versus Ireland 1!) so Ireland is only one small player, in this legal tax avoidance activity, that outs undertaken by large corporates. So in the scheme of things, I'd say is a storm in a teacup for now.

realitykeeper

Godge wrote: »

http://www.businesspost.ie/bonanza-tax-take-surges-as-economy-hits-tiger-era-levels/

Astonishing is the only word to describe it.

Bubble would be better.

carzony

Can I just ask how things seem to be so positive in the newspapers, news and yet anyone I know seems to be unemployed, only able to find work part-time or struggling to get through the week after all the cuts and tax hikes.

Not trying to complain and not part of the 'because of the jobbridge' i'm seriously asking.. The area I live in seems to be full of people financially struggling to get by and finding it hard to find work.

Maybe i'm just surrounded by very unlucky people?

Quin_Dub

carzony wrote: »

Can I just ask how things seem to be so positive in the newspapers, news and yet anyone I know seems to be unemployed, only able to find work part-time or struggling to get through the week after all the cuts and tax hikes.

Not trying to complain and not part of the 'because of the jobbridge' i'm seriously asking.. The area I live in seems to be full of people financially struggling to get by and finding it hard to find work.

Maybe i'm just surrounded by very unlucky people?

Mostly because the recovery - as real and tangible as it is , has not yet reached all parts of the country.

And in all honesty, it may not ever really get to everywhere - Or at least never equally

There is significant growth in the major urban areas and the surrounding "satellite" areas but the more rural areas are still struggling..

During the boom - little one-horse towns got boosts from building hotels and houses that in all honesty they never needed...This can't happen again.

Zubeneschamali

carzony wrote: »

The area I live in seems to be full of people financially struggling to get by and finding it hard to find work.

A huge chunk of the unemployed are people who used to work in construction. In June 07 there were 273,000 in construction, in June '13 that was 102,000.

Those people will never all be employed in construction again, no matter how many retail, Pharma and IT jobs are created.

Godge

carzony wrote: »

Can I just ask how things seem to be so positive in the newspapers, news and yet anyone I know seems to be unemployed, only able to find work part-time or struggling to get through the week after all the cuts and tax hikes.

Not trying to complain and not part of the 'because of the jobbridge' i'm seriously asking.. The area I live in seems to be full of people financially struggling to get by and finding it hard to find work.

Maybe i'm just surrounded by very unlucky people?

Over the last decade the world has seen an increase in the urbanisation trend. We have been so concerned with our own internal financial trouble that this has largely gone unnoticed.

The result is that this recovery will, for the foreseeable future be nearly exclusively concentrated in the major cities - Dublin, Cork, Limerick and their catchment areas. The rest of the country may have to wait quite a while to see any serious recovery.

Even if you are living somewhere like Sligo it will take quite a while to recover.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Godge

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1201/750432-unemployment/


Unemployment fell slightly again this month. Still at 8.9% as the reduction was only 700.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

serfboard

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Add in tax receipts on top of that and the movement from debit to credit is even more impressive.

How may people think as I do, that our recovery has got fúck all to do with government policy, though? I'll wave a red rag to the bulls of boards.ie and quote Jim Power:

wrote:

a key driver of our recovery has been four external factors; low oil prices, low interest rates, the strength of the US and UK recovery and the weakness of the euro

[Anecdote] I was up in Donegal recently and they were telling me that not only are people there not shopping over the border as they were before, but that northerners are coming across here now. Think of the extra taxes that are generated as a result of that (and remember back to days of queues going into Newry)? [/Anecdote]

Since the UK is still our biggest trading partner, the exchange rate is doing us a massive favour.

Godge

serfboard wrote: »

Add in tax receipts on top of that and the movement from debit to credit is even more impressive.

How may people think as I do, that our recovery has got fúck all to do with government policy, though? I'll wave a red rag to the bulls of boards.ie and quote Jim Power:

[Anecdote] I was up in Donegal recently and they were telling me that not only are people there not shopping over the border as they were before, but that northerners are coming across here now. Think of the extra taxes that are generated as a result of that (and remember back to days of queues going into Newry)? [/Anecdote]

Since the UK is still our biggest trading partner, the exchange rate is doing us a massive favour.

The same external factors apply to Greece, yet they are in recession. Why?

Incompetent government led by Syriza.

It may well be true that Government policy in a small open economy cannot create a recovery but it is certainly true that Government policy could wreck such an economy.

K-9

serfboard wrote: »

Add in tax receipts on top of that and the movement from debit to credit is even more impressive.

How may people think as I do, that our recovery has got fúck all to do with government policy, though? I'll wave a red rag to the bulls of boards.ie and quote Jim Power:

[Anecdote] I was up in Donegal recently and they were telling me that not only are people there not shopping over the border as they were before, but that northerners are coming across here now. Think of the extra taxes that are generated as a result of that (and remember back to days of queues going into Newry)? [/Anecdote]

Since the UK is still our biggest trading partner, the exchange rate is doing us a massive favour.

Only 16% of our exports are to the UK, the US is a bigger market. 34% of our imports come from the UK though.

Godge

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1202/750627-exchequer-figures/


http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/state-coffers-close-to-boom-time-levels-as-state-takes-in-extra-3bn-in-tax-take-34252337.html


The tax revenue news is being carried more widely today, with the figures out later.

serfboard

Godge wrote: »

The same external factors apply to Greece, yet they are in recession. Why?

Incompetent government led by Syriza.

Greece is a a failed state, caused by decades of corruption (a lot of which started during the military dictatorship), and tax evasion - and all of which happened before Syriza got into power. Even their accession into the Euro was brought about by scamming the figures.

Godge wrote: »

It may well be true that Government policy in a small open economy cannot create a recovery but it is certainly true that Government policy could wreck such an economy.

Don't disagree with that, though as I say, in the case of Greece, the wrecking of the economy was done long before Syriza got into power. For more on just how bad Greece was, read this article by Michael Lewis from 2010.

How do you think "Greek shipping magnates" became Greek shipping magnates - by being good citizens and paying their taxes?

K-9 wrote: »

Only 16% of our exports are to the UK, the US is a bigger market. 34% of our imports come from the UK though.

Main export partners are: United States (23 percent), United Kingdom (16 percent), Belgium (14 percent), Germany (7 percent), France (5 percent) and Switzerland (4 percent).

So, the point applies - our top two export markets are non euro-zone into currencies that have strengthened considerably against the Euro recently - and if the Fed raises interest rates, we could be looking at parity fairly soon. (XE has it today at 1.059).

Here is a staggering figure from the same site. Ireland is:

is one of the biggest exporters of pharmaceuticals in the world (28 percent of total exports)

From the Irish Times:

The Irish Times wrote:

The inclusion of Belgium ... is explained by the fact that Antwerp is one of the world’s largest drug redistribution centres and receives most of our non-US pharma exports. Last year, it took in €10.2 billion of chemical exports from Ireland

Why do people think the pharmaceutical companies are here - is it because of our "educated, hard-working workforce"? :rolleyes:

golfwallah

Godge wrote: »

The same external factors apply to Greece, yet they are in recession. Why?

Incompetent government led by Syriza.

It may well be true that Government policy in a small open economy cannot create a recovery but it is certainly true that Government policy could wreck such an economy.

Like ourselves, the reasons for the Greek economic crisis are mainly down to internal political/economic policies, followed by governments elected way before the current incumbents (who are more an effect rather than a cause of the crisis). That said, the specific internal policies were different as between ourselves and Greece.

According to this article on the Greek Crisis, some of these include:
• Inefficient pension system (costing 17.5% of GDP)
• Excessive worker benefits
• Early retirement
• High unemployment & work culture issues
• Tax evasion

Also like us, they are benefiting from external favourable economic factors, such as lower interest rates, weaker Euro, cheaper oil and commodity prices, etc. Despite all our faults, our economy was more structurally stable than Greece’s before the crisis, more dependent on exports than internal welfare transfers and high state borrowing.

It’s a bit early to blame Syriza on the crisis as they have only been in power for less than a year. Granted they have made mistakes and some of their policies appear crazy. But let’s wait a while and let history judge their performance over a longer period!

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

serfboard

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I notice in your list there no mention at all at all of our "friendly" tax policies ... Mustn't be that important to the MNCs ...

In other news, November tax is 3 billion above forecast

RT&#201 wrote:

So far this year, the Government has collected just shy of €42bn in taxes - almost €3bn more than it expected to collect at the start of the year.
The reason is a surge in Corporation Tax, which accounts for two thirds of the extra tax revenue.
In all, Corporation Tax has brought in €6.3bn - €2.3bn more than expected.

This surge in Corporation Tax makes me very uneasy. Bubble anyone?

Michael Noonan says it's sustainable and will be repeated next year - but then he's a politician about to face election ...

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

andrew

serfboard wrote: »

I notice in your list there no mention at all at all of our "friendly" tax policies ... Mustn't be that important to the MNCs ...

In other news, November tax is 3 billion above forecast


This surge in Corporation Tax makes me very uneasy. Bubble anyone?

Michael Noonan says it's sustainable and will be repeated next year - but then he's a politician about to face election ...

A bubble isn't an unexpected increase in some number. The corporation tax thing either means the government are really bad at forecasting tax revenues, or just really pessimistic. That said, forecasting stuff is very hard to do. Since only about 11 companies pay most of the corporation tax, it only takes one or two companies changing something to have a massive effect on the corporation tax take.

BoJack Horseman

Better to be pessimistic than to spend money now on the anticipation of those taxes tomorrow (As George Osbourne did last week).