Can we have peaceful, national protests yet?

MilanPan!c

Banjo String wrote: »

Point being that in other countries, "tens of thousands" are protesting against austerity.

Suuuree ... But since it won't have an impact, who cares?

Banjo String

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Suuuree ... But since it won't have an impact, who cares?

Can I have a go on your crystal ball when you're finished with it?

zoomaway

Banjo String wrote: »

Can I have a go on your crystal ball when you're finished with it?

Me too.

MilanPan!c

Banjo String wrote: »

Can I have a go on your crystal ball when you're finished with it?

Sure.


But the reality is you don't need a crystal ball to see that marching around complaining hasnt made any politician do anything or even pressured them meaningfully for decades.

You can PRETEND it's going to do something and sure anything is possible, but in this case unlikely enough to make it nonsensical.

Do you remember the million man march? The millions that marched against the Iraq war? And the list goes on.

Very few things can make a difference aside from professional media campaigns and even then... Well... Most change is temporary at best.

Remember the massive destruction of FF? How it was gonna change everything.

Whoops!

People that want change have real options but marching around isn't a real one.

MilanPan!c

Two million March against Obamacare:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html

Outcome? Obamacare is the law.

2003 March against the Iraq war - which was held in 600 cities and had up to 30 million people:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest

Outcome: War in Iraq killing millions.

Should I go on?

People have been marching around in Ireland, protesting, continuously, since 2008.

How's that worked out? Are all the bankers in jail? Has austerity ended?

But sure, keep on marching. Lol.

Phoebas

The pensioners had some success a few years back when they took to the streets, so I wouldn't say that protesting is entirely ineffectual.
If you have a specific enough demand and you have enough political strength then there is a chance that you can affect political change.

But these general marches against austerity are pointless because the government just hasn't the power to make big changes in that area - you may as well be marching for better weather.

If the austerity protesters were to pick a specific piece of 'austerity', like a cut to some particular social welfare benefit, and held some protests on that (preferably including the people who are impacted by the cut) then there might be some chance that the government might rethink one cut and substitute another.

They overestimate their strength. A few hundred people taking to the streets isn't going to overturn central planks of government policy - and why should it?

MilanPan!c

Phoebas wrote: »

The pensioners had some success a few years back when they took to the streets, so I wouldn't say that protesting is entirely ineffectual.
If you have a specific enough demand and you have enough political strength then there is a chance that you can affect political change.

But these general marches against austerity are pointless because the government just hasn't the power to make big changes in that area - you may as well be marching for better weather.

If the austerity protesters were to pick a specific piece of 'austerity', like a cut to some particular social welfare benefit, and held some protests on that (preferably including the people who are impacted by the cut) then there might be some chance that the government might rethink one cut and substitute another.

They overestimate their strength. A few hundred people taking to the streets isn't going to overturn central planks of government policy - and why should it?

The pensioners had success because they managed to get on the radio and tele all day every day... they hired good PR people and it put REAL pressure on the pols... they could have easily done the same without the marching - and sans the PR side, the marching would have been a failure.

We know this because media exposure works - on occasion - even without marching, and marching without PR never does.

There's PLENTY of ways to affect change, and sure everyone knows this... but no one here is willing to sacrifice for it so... you know... if it makes you feel better to waste your time and accomplish nothing, do it... but don't expect people to join you... it's a waste of time...

The Pensioners had only limited success. They managed to push the changes down the road. Medial Cards are now means rested. They have lost Phone and Electricity allowances.

Phoebas

MilanPan!c wrote: »

The pensioners had success because they managed to get on the radio and tele all day every day... they hired good PR people and it put REAL pressure on the pols... they could have easily done the same without the marching - and sans the PR side, the marching would have been a failure.

We know this because media exposure works - on occasion - even without marching, and marching without PR never does.

There's PLENTY of ways to affect change, and sure everyone knows this... but no one here is willing to sacrifice for it so... you know... if it makes you feel better to waste your time and accomplish nothing, do it... but don't expect people to join you... it's a waste of time...

The thing I remember most about the pensioners campaign was the fact that they could mobilise their ranks to take to the streets - if a person is willing to physically get out and protest its a sure sign that they're also willing to use their vote to advance that goal. If you have large numbers, in a demographic who do cast their vote, then you have political strength.
The fact that they could get thousands of people out on the streets was a key part of the PR strategy that got their representatives onto TV and radio.

Mind you, I can't see a threat by the typical anti austerity protesters that they wont vote for the establishment parties in the next election if they don't get their way having the same impact.

zoomaway

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone is in need of food banks, then let them avail of them. A lot of families would be better served by offering simple home economics classes, showing how to cater for a family on a budget. Those figures for children going to school hungry are misleading too. Why are they hungry? How many are hungry due to genuine lack of money to buy food? Or how many are the offspring of parents unwilling or unable to cater for their basic needs.
Regarding Paul Murphy's protest, isn't he the one that wants to cut taxes and have a minimum wage of at least €13. WTF would that do to the smaller business person who is hanging on by the skin of his teeth?
Protests only irritate the right minded citizen and waste precious resources in policing them.
Austerity isn't nice. However, I'll bet that we have all learned to look more carefully at our money before spending it!

I can't actually believe what you have written ' protests only irritate the right minded citizen.'

As for home economics classes for those struggling to eat I think that is extremely patronising.

Perhaps you should take a few classes in empathy and how to lose a self righteous attitude.

MilanPan!c

Phoebas wrote: »

The thing I remember most about the pensioners campaign was the fact that they could mobilise their ranks to take to the streets - if a person is willing to physically get out and protest its a sure sign that they're also willing to use their vote to advance that goal. If you have large numbers, in a demographic who do cast their vote, then you have political strength.
The fact that they could get thousands of people out on the streets was a key part of the PR strategy that got their representatives onto TV and radio.

Mind you, I can't see a threat by the typical anti austerity protesters that they wont vote for the establishment parties in the next election if they don't get their way having the same impact.

If you had a time machine, what you'd see was over a week of constant media attention before the March. The concessions were made before the people took to the streets. The march was most an afterthought.

MilanPan!c

zoomaway wrote: »

I can't actually believe what you have written ' protests only irritate the right minded citizen.'

As for home economics classes for those struggling to eat I think that is extremely patronising.

Perhaps you should take a few classes in empathy and how to lose a self righteous attitude.

Because telling the poor that they can affect change through marching - ie lying to them - is a much more moral approach?

zoomaway

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Because telling the poor that they can affect change through marching - ie lying to them - is a much more moral approach?

Sounds like you feel very threatened by the thought of anybody marching, the boat getting rocked.

MilanPan!c

zoomaway wrote: »

Sounds like you feel very threatened by the thought of anybody marching, the boat getting rocked.

Yes, that and dragon attack are my two biggest fears.

I'm about as scared of people marching as politicians are. Not at all.

MadYaker

zoomaway wrote: »

I can't actually believe what you have written ' protests only irritate the right minded citizen.'

As for home economics classes for those struggling to eat I think that is extremely patronising.

Perhaps you should take a few classes in empathy and how to lose a self righteous attitude.

zoomaway wrote: »

Sounds like you feel very threatened by the thought of anybody marching, the boat getting rocked.

Ah yes, when your arguement fails resort to personal attacks.

zoomaway

MadYaker wrote: »

Ah yes, when your arguement fails resort to personal attacks.

Hi nice to meet you too.
Are you just trolling?

zoomaway

zoomaway wrote: »

I can't actually believe what you have written ' protests only irritate the right minded citizen.'

As for home economics classes for those struggling to eat I think that is extremely patronising.

Perhaps you should take a few classes in empathy and how to lose a self righteous attitude.

I'm not the only one who thinks like this. It's a positive move, more helpful than all the protesting in the World.
http://www.barnardos.ie/media-centre/news/latest-news/help-is-on-hand-for-parents-as-new-family-supports-launch-in-limerick-city.html

MilanPan!c

zoomaway wrote: »

Hi nice to meet you too.
Are you just trolling?

So more insults? I suppose you don't see the irony.

zoomaway

MilanPan!c wrote: »

So more insults? I suppose you don't see the irony.

First of all I am not a troll.
I am someone who cares about the state of my country and have said from the outset that I would be in favour of peaceful protest.
Secondly,
I see a conserted effort on this thread to silence anyone who wishes to do so.
Thirdly,
What many people do not see or perhaps do not wish to see is that the never ending government cuts are creating a two tier society in Ireland and widening the gap between rich and poor. This will have grave social consequences for Irish society as a whole in the future in my opinion.


At the end of the day it depends on which kind of society Irish people want to live in and be part of. I rest my case.

MadYaker

Ok. The cuts will stop eventually. Is there evidence of a widening gap between rich and poor? The middle classes are certainly being squeezed alright but I think overall things are improving slowly. We are certainly better off now than we were when this government took over. Like it or not they will probably get reelected in 2016 if things continue to improve.

twowheelsgood

zoomaway wrote: »

What many people do not see or perhaps do not wish to see is that the never ending government cuts are creating a two tier society in Ireland and widening the gap between rich and poor. This will have grave social consequences for Irish society as a whole in the future in my opinion.

At the end of the day it depends on which kind of society Irish people want to live in and be part of. I rest my case.

But you haven’t made a case. You have pointed out the difficulties that austerity is causing many people but you haven’t suggested an alternative.

Even if you think austerity is a bad policy (and many do but this is not our call at national level) we had no real alternative.

We had (have) a massive deficit and nobody would lend us money to continue spending as we had been doing.

What would you propose we should have done differently?

marienbad

zoomaway wrote: »

First of all I am not a troll.
I am someone who cares about the state of my country and have said from the outset that I would be in favour of peaceful protest.
Secondly,
I see a conserted effort on this thread to silence anyone who wishes to do so.
Thirdly,
What many people do not see or perhaps do not wish to see is that the never ending government cuts are creating a two tier society in Ireland and widening the gap between rich and poor. This will have grave social consequences for Irish society as a whole in the future in my opinion.


At the end of the day it depends on which kind of society Irish people want to live in and be part of. I rest my case.

I think you can take it we all care about out country and some of us care enough about it to continue paying taxes through what is our 3rd major recession , so you can stop patting yourself on the back for that one.

There is no effort to silence anyone and to say so is just chip on the shoulder stuff of the highest order.

Now as for the never ending cuts and creating a two tier society - that we can agree on. What we don't agree on is how we got into this mess and how we can get out of it.

The current crowd didn't create it and are doing a better than expected job in getting us out of it. That is all posters are saying .

Have you an alternative that doesn't ignore reality ?

MilanPan!c

My point, so we're all clear:

Let's put aside all ideology, and discuss tactics.

Marching around to influence people in power does not work and hasn't for ages. There's been endless protests in Ireland for the last 4-5 years and they've basically had no effect; government and politicians don't care.

They know something the protestors don't seem to understand; if you ignore the protestors nothing bad happens. They don't get voted out, it doesn't escalate and the average voter doesn't care about marchers.

So.

Put aside WHY you want change or WHAT change you want, if you want to succeed and accomplish your goals, marching doesn't work.

Claiming that people against marching don't want change is an insult to people's intelligence.

There are EASY ways to accomplish almost any goal, if enough Irish people were willing to choose to sacrifice - they CLEARLY are not.

So.

Until that point, any discussion about ideology is meaningless.

Jonny7

MilanPan!c wrote: »

There are EASY ways to accomplish almost any goal, if enough Irish people were willing to choose to sacrifice - they CLEARLY are not.

So.

Until that point, any discussion about ideology is meaningless.

To accomplish what goal precisely?.. is the goal the same for all?.. what is the measure of success?.. do average people know more about economics than economic experts and advisors to make these kind of calls in this current climate?

And no, many people are not willing to sacrifice - to change their life, change their livelihoods, the livelihoods of their family, children, to risk everything - for example Ukraine, it can be a huge risk

Have a look at Greece.. their output is down 25%, their unemployment is getting close to 30%, there is a shortage of drugs at pharmacies, the country is experiencing a huge "brain drain" as crucially needed experts leave the country.. changing the government or hanging the last lot isn't going to realistically help their situation - it's more likely to hinder it

Also, how much of the complaints here are just an obsession with the antics of a few politicians? or perhaps those who simply don't understand that things could have been (or could be) much.. much worse

It's all relative.

MilanPan!c

Jonny7 wrote: »

To accomplish what goal precisely?.. is the goal the same for all?.. what is the measure of success?.. do average people know more about economics than economic experts and advisors to make these kind of calls in this current climate?

And no, many people are not willing to sacrifice - to change their life, change their livelihoods, the livelihoods of their family, children, to risk everything - for example Ukraine, it can be a huge risk

If you're asking me, my answer is that I'm not espousing a specific ideology.

However.

If people wish to accomplish change - whatever that means to them - they can't do it via marching about.

Jonny7

MilanPan!c wrote: »

If you're asking me, my answer is that I'm not espousing a specific ideology.

However.

If people wish to accomplish change - whatever that means to them - they can't do it via marching about.

There are plenty of examples of protests affecting/changing policy, even bringing down entire governments

MilanPan!c

Jonny7 wrote: »

There are plenty of examples of protests affecting/changing policy, even bringing down entire governments

There's no modern examples of people marching down the street making government change.

You carefully use the word protest, but that's not the same as marching. I.E. A salmon is a fish, but not all fish are salmon.

Revolutions often start as non-violent protest, but are wildly different to marching around.

Like I have said there's plenty of ways to force change; marches aren't one of them.

marienbad

MilanPan!c wrote: »

There's no modern examples of people marching down the street making government change.

You carefully use the word protest, but that's not the same as marching. I.E. A salmi is a fish, but not all fish are salmon.

Revolutions often start as non-violent protest, but are wildly different to marching around.

Like I have said there's plenty of ways to force change; marches aren't one of them.

I wouldn't go that far now. Marching and protesting have brought about some of the greatest changes in modern history , from Gandhi and Rev.King
tight up the of French farmers putting off the inevitable in the EU. The protests in the UK against the Iraq war may at first not appear to have made much difference but you can be sure the politicians were well aware of them in vetoing the involvement in Syria .

And on the negative side we had the Sunningdale agreement brought down by public protest .

Jonny7

MilanPan!c wrote: »

There's no modern examples of people marching down the street making government change.

There are many. And it's not just literally "people in the streets", change can be effected by one person, or by huge groups - tractors in Paris, sit ins, walk-outs, boycotts, strikes, union marches, etc

There are hundreds of marches going on around the world every week - from the smallest issues to the largest - their effectiveness can range from having absolute no effect to bringing down an entire government as I mentioned before

MilanPan!c

marienbad wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far now. Marching and protesting have brought about some of the greatest changes in modern history , from Gandhi and Rev.King
tight up the of French farmers putting off the inevitable in the EU. The protests in the UK against the Iraq war may at first not appear to have made much difference but you can be sure the politicians were well aware of them in vetoing the involvement in Syria .

And on the negative side we had the Sunningdale agreement brought down by public protest .

Well now wait.

If you're gonna call what Ghandi did a "march" then it's you that's going a bit too far.

Rev King and the civil rights movement wasn't just some marching either, was it?

The French farmer protests are neither marches nor are they proven to be successful.

Calling the riots, strikes and protests that destroyed Sunningdale a "march" is also, frankly, nonsense. And it was 40 years ago.