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Commissioner Callinan resigns with immediate effect
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This is about a lot more than penalty points and equipment . This is the part where we preface every discussion in Ireland with the caveat the 95% of serving - insert as appropriate- be it priests doctors garda etc are doing an outstanding job so lets not allow a few bad apples tarnish the whole organisation.
But the problem is none of these organisation look kindly on whistleblowers and for that culture to flourish it is the silence of the many that enable the few to corrupt the system . So where were all these individuals clamouring for change when all this was going on ?
And not ignoring penalty points but the warning signs are going on for years, the Donegal fiasco in any other country would have been more than the final straw and brought about jail sentences, where as we just roll on.
Not that it is relevant but I am working my way through the report as best I can
You may throw in the phrase "95% of serving" when it suits you to row back on an attack but it's not really effective when you constantly refer to the organisation in the collective. What you should be doing is prefacing what you say with "5% of Gardaí". This isn't aimed at you alone but everyone who likes to get a word in.
You ask where the people were looking for change. I suggest you look back at the reports from the annual meetings of the AGSI and GRA. I suggest you look back at issues of the Garda Review magazine. I suggest you look at the rules of when Gardaí are allowed make political statements. (The answer is never). Then ask yourself if it's reasonable to gag people and then complain when they don't shout. Gardaí have to wait on a decision from an EU court just for union rights. Two years ago the Gardaí entered a working time agreement with the government. Would you like to guess how many times it has been breached? Would you like to guess what comeback Gardaí have? (The answer is none).
Do you know how many of Morris Tribunals recommendations were actually followed through? Competency based recruitment, training and promotion, new informant system, GSOC, management training for senior officers, legislated discipline procedure with a statutory requirement for Gardaí to account for their actions, incident accountability requests, not to mention an increased role for social and communications based classes in Templemore. So please, if you are going to bring upo Donegal please know what you are talking about.
The Guerin report highlights one big issue and that is the problem of probationer and junior Gardaí being allowed run investigations. You won't find any Garda disagreeing with that. By the way, to the best of my knowledge, the new training system planned for new recruits already changes this. Nothing else in the report is really reflective on Gardaí. If anything it's a reflection on how useless the GSOC is in that they farm most of the disciplinary cases back to the Gardaí and hang on to the juicy ones.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »You haven't addressed a single one of the points I made about McCabes conduct. Personally I don't give a toss what the public thinks. The majority don't understand anything about law and policing and the courts. All they'll get from this fiasco is a force that does more paperwork than policework and maybe a new version of GSOC to keep them happy. They aren't interested in real reform. They just want a pound of flesh.
Just following your example of not answering any of mine, and not giving a toss what the public think is maybe the reason the gardai are in the mess they are in at present in not understanding that the publics expectations of a police force is one that carries out its duties without favouring certain individuals over others, has more interest in justice than covering each others backs when they know there was wrong-doing and learns from its past mistakes.
As too McCabe`s conduct, the inquiry coming down the road isn`t into McCabes conduct, it`s because of what his conduct has uncovered, and even if you as stated don`t give a toss for what the public thinks, the public thinks the gardai, from what he`s uncovered, is a force out of control, and after seeing so much of the same in the past with no changes and nothing learned have finally had enough, and this time want heads to roll and an end to the shenanigans.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »You may throw in the phrase "95% of serving" when it suits you to row back on an attack but it's not really effective when you constantly refer to the organisation in the collective. What you should be doing is prefacing what you say with "5% of Gardaí". This isn't aimed at you alone but everyone who likes to get a word in.
You ask where the people were looking for change. I suggest you look back at the reports from the annual meetings of the AGSI and GRA. I suggest you look back at issues of the Garda Review magazine. I suggest you look at the rules of when Gardaí are allowed make political statements. (The answer is never). Then ask yourself if it's reasonable to gag people and then complain when they don't shout. Gardaí have to wait on a decision from an EU court just for union rights. Two years ago the Gardaí entered a working time agreement with the government. Would you like to guess how many times it has been breached? Would you like to guess what comeback Gardaí have? (The answer is none).
Do you know how many of Morris Tribunals recommendations were actually followed through? Competency based recruitment, training and promotion, new informant system, GSOC, management training for senior officers, legislated discipline procedure with a statutory requirement for Gardaí to account for their actions, incident accountability requests, not to mention an increased role for social and communications based classes in Templemore. So please, if you are going to bring upo Donegal please know what you are talking about.
The Guerin report highlights one big issue and that is the problem of probationer and junior Gardaí being allowed run investigations. You won't find any Garda disagreeing with that. By the way, to the best of my knowledge, the new training system planned for new recruits already changes this. Nothing else in the report is really reflective on Gardaí. If anything it's a reflection on how useless the GSOC is in that they farm most of the disciplinary cases back to the Gardaí and hang on to the juicy ones.
Hit the nail on the head there mate. It will probably fall on deaf ears though.0 -
Just following your example of not answering any of mine, and not giving a toss what the public think is maybe the reason the gardai are in the mess they are in at present in not understanding that the publics expectations of a police force is one that carries out its duties without favouring certain individuals over others, has more interest in justice than covering each others backs when they know there was wrong-doing and learns from its past mistakes.
As too McCabe`s conduct, the inquiry coming down the road isn`t into McCabes conduct, it`s because of what his conduct has uncovered, and even if you as stated don`t give a toss for what the public thinks, the public thinks the gardai, from what he`s uncovered, is a force out of control, and after seeing so much of the same in the past with no changes and nothing learned have finally had enough, and this time want heads to roll and an end to the shenanigans.
I've addressed every point you raised. The job of a Garda is not to care what anyone thinks. If Gardaí did their job based on what people think the justice system would collapse completely, mainly because your average Joe hasn't a basic understanding of a law and they all want the law enforced until it is enforced on them.
Like you said, people want heads to roll, not reform. I bet you don't even know what heads should roll for. I trust you see the irony in your stance on McCabe. The end justifies the means right?
Like I said, the force took on board all of the criticisms from Morris and more. The same will happen here but after it's over we'll just end up with a worse force overall. And it's because of people like you who are more interested in getting their pound of flesh instead of having a fully functional police force.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »You may throw in the phrase "95% of serving" when it suits you to row back on an attack but it's not really effective when you constantly refer to the organisation in the collective. What you should be doing is prefacing what you say with "5% of Gardaí". This isn't aimed at you alone but everyone who likes to get a word in.
You ask where the people were looking for change. I suggest you look back at the reports from the annual meetings of the AGSI and GRA. I suggest you look back at issues of the Garda Review magazine. I suggest you look at the rules of when Gardaí are allowed make political statements. (The answer is never). Then ask yourself if it's reasonable to gag people and then complain when they don't shout. Gardaí have to wait on a decision from an EU court just for union rights. Two years ago the Gardaí entered a working time agreement with the government. Would you like to guess how many times it has been breached? Would you like to guess what comeback Gardaí have? (The answer is none).
Do you know how many of Morris Tribunals recommendations were actually followed through? Competency based recruitment, training and promotion, new informant system, GSOC, management training for senior officers, legislated discipline procedure with a statutory requirement for Gardaí to account for their actions, incident accountability requests, not to mention an increased role for social and communications based classes in Templemore. So please, if you are going to bring upo Donegal please know what you are talking about.
The Guerin report highlights one big issue and that is the problem of probationer and junior Gardaí being allowed run investigations. You won't find any Garda disagreeing with that. By the way, to the best of my knowledge, the new training system planned for new recruits already changes this. Nothing else in the report is really reflective on Gardaí. If anything it's a reflection on how useless the GSOC is in that they farm most of the disciplinary cases back to the Gardaí and hang on to the juicy ones.
Here we go again ! Another organisation telling us ''what you should be doing''
How is this for a suggestion - how about you ( not you personally, the collective you) just shut up for once and trying LISTENING to what the public which you are supposed to serve are saying to you.0 -
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Here we go again ! Another organisation telling us ''what you should be doing''
That is the whole point of law enforcement.How is this for a suggestion - how about you ( not you personally, the collective you) just shut up for once and trying LISTENING to what the public which you are supposed to serve are saying to you.
Because it's irrelevant. If they want change then change the law. if they want a better service then pay for it. Despite what you might like to think, Gardaí are inundated with work and are at breaking point. You can't get blood from a stone. Head onto the Journal or Reddit or even after hours and look at all the people up in arms about corrupt Gardaí and lazy Gardaí. The same people give out about speed traps, cannabis law enforcement and people in jail for not paying fines. The people don't know what they want. Like I already said, everyone wants the law enforced efficiently until it's enforced on them.0 -
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Little CuChulainn wrote: »That is the whole point of law enforcement.
Because it's irrelevant. If they want change then change the law. if they want a better service then pay for it. Despite what you might like to think, Gardaí are inundated with work and are at breaking point. You can't get blood from a stone. Head onto the Journal or Reddit or even after hours and look at all the people up in arms about corrupt Gardaí and lazy Gardaí. The same people give out about speed traps, cannabis law enforcement and people in jail for not paying fines. The people don't know what they want. Like I already said, everyone wants the law enforced efficiently until it's enforced on them.
No you are missing the point - we want you first and foremost to obey the law , is that too much to expect ?0 -
No you are missing the point - we want you first and foremost to obey the law , is that too much to expect ?
Can you point to one instance in the Guerin report of Gardaí not obeying the law? Can you point to one instance in the penalty points saga of Gardaí not obeying the law? Your problem is you don't know the law. You want Gardaí to obey what you think is the law.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Can you point to one instance in the Guerin report of Gardaí not obeying the law? Can you point to one instance in the penalty points saga of Gardaí not obeying the law? Your problem is you don't know the law. You want Gardaí to obey what you think is the law.
Is accessing pulse without proper cause against the law ?0 -
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Little CuChulainn wrote: »I've addressed every point you raised. The job of a Garda is not to care what anyone thinks. If Gardaí did their job based on what people think the justice system would collapse completely, mainly because your average Joe hasn't a basic understanding of a law and they all want the law enforced until it is enforced on them.
Like you said, people want heads to roll, not reform. I bet you don't even know what heads should roll for. I trust you see the irony in your stance on McCabe. The end justifies the means right?
Like I said, the force took on board all of the criticisms from Morris and more. The same will happen here but after it's over we'll just end up with a worse force overall. And it's because of people like you who are more interested in getting their pound of flesh instead of having a fully functional police force.
You either don`t get it or don`t want to. The public want the law enforced fairly. Not favours to a select few by cancelling penalty points etc, or misleading people about court cases, that ultimately result in a murder. Good enough reasons for heads to roll in my opinion.As to Mc Cabe, do you not see the irony of the lesser of two evils in what he did in exposing what has been going on?
If the gardai learned anything from Morris, then its difficult to see what, in light of what Smithwicks had to say. And no I`m not looking for just any pound of flesh, I`m looking for the bad apples removed without them being protected by a closing of ranks as stated by Smithwicks. A point you didn`t cover by the way, or are you like callinan, a finding you don`t and will never agree with.0 -
Is accessing pulse without proper cause against the law ?
It's a breach of discipline and contrary to data protection law.You either don`t get it or don`t want to. The public want the law enforced fairly. Not favours to a select few by cancelling penalty points etc, or misleading people about court cases, that ultimately result in a murder. Good enough reasons for heads to roll in my opinion.
Misleading people about court cases? You haven't even read that part of the Guerin report? The juciest part. Guerin himself says that there was no misleading in that case. McGrath made a surprise plea on a date that was supposed to be only for mention. And it's fairly obvious to anyone that the fault in that case was the bail laws, something Gardaí have criticised since they were introduced.As to Mc Cabe, do you not see the irony of the lesser of two evils in what he did in exposing what has been going on?
The lesser of two evils? Like if a Garda slaps a fella around to make him confess to a serious crime? I'm not sure I like the kind of force you want. Enforce the law by disobeying it.If the gardai learned anything from Morris, then its difficult to see what, in light of what Smithwicks had to say. And no I`m not looking for just any pound of flesh, I`m looking for the bad apples removed without them being protected by a closing of ranks as stated by Smithwicks. A point you didn`t cover by the way, or are you like callinan, a finding you don`t and will never agree with.
I think it would be great if all cases could be decided like the Smithwick one. Gardaí wouldn't have to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. But I fail to see how a tribunal based on an incident 25 years ago has any relevance todays force, no matter if it's findings correct or incorrect. I've already explained what changes have been made since that time.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »It's a breach of discipline and contrary to data protection law.
Misleading people about court cases? You haven't even read that part of the Guerin report? The juciest part. Guerin himself says that there was no misleading in that case. McGrath made a surprise plea on a date that was supposed to be only for mention. And it's fairly obvious to anyone that the fault in that case was the bail laws, something Gardaí have criticised since they were introduced.
The lesser of two evils? Like if a Garda slaps a fella around to make him confess to a serious crime? I'm not sure I like the kind of force you want. Enforce the law by disobeying it.
I think it would be great if all cases could be decided like the Smithwick one. Gardaí wouldn't have to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. But I fail to see how a tribunal based on an incident 25 years ago has any relevance todays force, no matter if it's findings correct or incorrect. I've already explained what changes have been made since that time.
No , it is obvious you just don't or won't get it. Shows how hard it will be to introduce real reform.0 -
You either don`t get it or don`t want to. The public want the law enforced fairly. Not favours to a select few by cancelling penalty points etc, or misleading people about court cases, that ultimately result in a murder. Good enough reasons for heads to roll in my opinion.As to Mc Cabe, do you not see the irony of the lesser of two evils in what he did in exposing what has been going on?
If the gardai learned anything from Morris, then its difficult to see what, in light of what Smithwicks had to say. And no I`m not looking for just any pound of flesh, I`m looking for the bad apples removed without them being protected by a closing of ranks as stated by Smithwicks. A point you didn`t cover by the way, or are you like callinan, a finding you don`t and will never agree with.
Just to get the facts right here, the events surrounding the smithick enquiry predate happened in 1989. The events surrounding morris were 1990s. You have absolutely no idea of court proceedure, internal garda proceedure or in this case the law. As such you are just ranting without direction which may make you feel better but is not helpful to a reform agenda that the gardai themselves have been calling for for years
For instance have you any idea what year the gra first called for an independent policing board to take over control of ags? Or have you ever heard of the luden/ryan report?? The gardai are not the ones blocking reform. Not one reform asked of ags by legislators has ever been refused.0 -
underachieved wrote: »Just to get the facts right here, the events surrounding the smithick enquiry predate happened in 1989. The events surrounding morris were 1990s. You have absolutely no idea of court proceedure, internal garda proceedure or in this case the law. As such you are just ranting without direction which may make you feel better but is not helpful to a reform agenda that the gardai themselves have been calling for for years
For instance have you any idea what year the gra first called for an independent policing board to take over control of ags? Or have you ever heard of the luden/ryan report?? The gardai are not the ones blocking reform. Not one reform asked of ags by legislators has ever been refused.
So can I take it from your reply and little cuchulans, that it's a yes that like Callinan neither of you believe or will ever believe Smithwicks remark that in his view the gardai are more interested in protecting each other that uncovering the truth.?0 -
So can I take it from your reply and little cuchulans, that it's a yes that like Callinan neither of you believe or will ever believe Smithwicks remark that in his view the gardai are more interested in protecting each other that uncovering the truth.?
You can live in the past all you want.0 -
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Why not answer the question ?
Because no matter what answer you get you translate it into what you want to hear. I addressed all your points and questions and you responded withNo , it is obvious you just don't or won't get it. Shows how hard it will be to introduce real reform.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Because no matter what answer you get you translate it into what you want to hear. I addressed all your points and questions and you responded with
You haven't answered any points , you just keep dodging the questions.0 -
You haven't answered any points , you just keep dodging the questions.
ExampleIs accessing pulse without proper cause against the law ?Little CuChulainn wrote: »It's a breach of discipline and contrary to data protection law.
Can't get more direct than that. But again, you see what you want to see.0 -
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Very simply I do agree with what smithick said as does every garda I know. Smithick said that the certain garda involved in a inquiry into an incident in 1989 a full 25 years ago attempted to protect themselves from legal reprocussions regarding colussion with the IRA. This is wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with reform and I if I had evidence would gladly prosecute these men of any law they broke.
This however has nothing and I mean nothing to do with reforms that have been called for by garda themselves since 1977!!!!! 1977. I am happy that the current issues have brought this to your attention and we could use your help and people like you but you have to be informed and not politicised. You are late to the reform agenda my friend. I hope you will get on board and seek honest and correct reform instead of the current garda bashing and point scoring that's going on. Politics is what corrupts policing. That link needs to be severed0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Example
Can't get more direct than that. But again, you see what you want to see.
No that answer had to be dragged out of you, is this going to be the usual debate where serving gardai are the unsung heroes and all the fault lies with the political establishment, the Garda Higher ups and the ignorant public ?0 -
No that answer had to be dragged out of you, is this going to be the usual debate where serving gardai are the unsung heroes and all the fault lies with the political establishment, the Garda Higher ups and the ignorant public ?
No but there is certainly truth that political involvement in policing and promotions within police forces is a bad thing?? Surely you can see that.
All serving gardai ask is that you the public inform yourself of the actual problems faced by AGS and don't just jump on a bandwagon depending on personal ideals. With correct man agent and proper resourcing we are not far away from what everyone wants. An effective police force0 -
No that answer had to be dragged out of you, is this going to be the usual debate where serving gardai are the unsung heroes and all the fault lies with the political establishment, the Garda Higher ups and the ignorant public ?
Dragged? You asked it once and I answered it straight away. This isn't a debate. You have already made up your mind and you have no intention of changing it whatever is said to you. You've ignored almost everything you've been told. At this point it just feels like I'm feeding a troll.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Dragged? You asked it once and I answered it straight away. This isn't a debate. You have already made up your mind and you have no intention of changing it whatever is said to you. You've ignored almost everything you've been told. At this point it just feels like I'm feeding a troll.
Correct it isn't a debate , a succession of enquires, reports etc going back years have outlined major issues with the force . That is no longer open for discussion , your acceptance of it might be , but that doesn't change the fact.
The first step in correcting problems is an open recognition that they exist. Make a clear statement accepting that fact and we might begin to have a discussion.
So far all we have seen is the usual catch all muddy the waters tactics. Just a variation of the them and us syndrome which is at the root of a lot of the issues.0 -
Correct it isn't a debate , a succession of enquires, reports etc going back years have outlined major issues with the force . That is no longer open for discussion , your acceptance of it might be , but that doesn't change the fact.
The first step in correcting problems is an open recognition that they exist. Make a clear statement accepting that fact and we might begin to have a discussion.
So far all we have seen is the usual catch all muddy the waters tactics. Just a variation of the them and us syndrome which is at the root of a lot of the issues.
I'm sorry to say this about a citizen of this country but you are ignorant of both fact and process. You quite obviously have not read the reports you are discussing and that is a shame.
The garda need informed critics and supporters to help them every day. We cannot do our job without the public and we cannot reform our organisation for the better without them.
You have expressed opinions here which obviously show a lack of basic knowledge of the issues. You unfortunately are part of the problem0 -
Correct it isn't a debate , a succession of enquires, reports etc going back years have outlined major issues with the force . That is no longer open for discussion , your acceptance of it might be , but that doesn't change the fact.
The first step in correcting problems is an open recognition that they exist. Make a clear statement accepting that fact and we might begin to have a discussion.
So far all we have seen is the usual catch all muddy the waters tactics. Just a variation of the them and us syndrome which is at the root of a lot of the issues.
Specifically, which recommendations from reports or enquiries have not been addressed already?0 -
underachieved wrote: »I'm sorry to say this about a citizen of this country but you are ignorant of both fact and process. You quite obviously have not read the reports you are discussing and that is a shame.
The garda need informed critics and supporters to help them every day. We cannot do our job without the public and we cannot reform our organisation for the better without them.
You have expressed opinions here which obviously show a lack of basic knowledge of the issues. You unfortunately are part of the problem
''You unfortunately are part of the problem'' The mind boggles0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Specifically, which recommendations from reports or enquiries have not been addressed already?
There is an attitudinal problem within the force and until that changes there is little chance of real change . And this goes all the way down from the like of Callinan with his repeated ''my force'' right down to the rank and file them and us attitude .
The defensiveness on here is just unreal.0 -
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''You unfortunately are part of the problem'' The mind boggles
Then very simply tell me 1 reform to make, your reasons for it and how to implement it. Then you begin to suggest solutions and become part of the solution instead of just bashing and making obviously ignorant judgements quoting reports you haven't read.
Then we can have a respectful discussion about your idea, and the future of ags. Gardai have been suggesting root and branch change since the mid 1970s but no one has listened0
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