Modern Irish slavery

Montgolfier

Am I right in saying the whole country is getting screwed on taxes.
I probably take home 40% of what I earn, if I spend that 40% take away another 23% so that leaves 17%.
Gov and people in the top jobs won't take a pay cut because they have huge mortgages and it wouldn't do If they couldn't pay the banks.
It amounts to Irish slavery earning just enough to survive but not enough to change your situation.

Frynge

Montgolfier wrote: »

Am I right in saying the whole country is getting screwed on taxes.
I probably take home 40% of what I earn, if I spend that 40% take away another 23% so that leaves 17%.
Gov and people in the top jobs won't take a pay cut because they have huge mortgages and it wouldn't do If they couldn't pay the banks.
It amounts to Irish slavery earning just enough to survive but not enough to change your situation.

Can I ask how exactly you only get 40% of you gross. It seems obscenely low.

JDOC1996

I agree with you. It's absolutely disgusting. But as per usual us Irish are just taking it up the hole. Our leaders are weak, impotent d*cks. It's really time us Irish people stand up for ourselves.

bikerjohn

This is my Slavery!!

So an owner walks into his factory on a Monday morning and rounds up his staff and says ok I need all you guys to work for 20% less but I want increased output .I want a large %%% of you to work in a new factory 75 miles away but you can make your own way there everyday and I will not compensate you I want all of you guys to be supervisors in 5 years time but we only got (10 positions and there is 80 of you) if not your fired.I want jimmy who started yesterday to work alongside tony for 10% less oh and finally I want you all to SMILE while this is happening ...REACTION FROM STAFF well you can all guess that one ...Except if your a Member of the Irish Defence Forces then you just take it and take it once they have drained you financially they will go after you mentally because you got no more to give .Defence Force Members have suffered most in the Public Service (FACT).DDFPAC2014

Montgolfier

Frynge wrote: »

Can I ask how exactly you only get 40% of you gross. It seems obscenely low.

Just utterly frustrated I work hard have a young family wife's not working so she minds the kids, we don't eat/drink out and we have feck all at the end of the month.
Granted I didn't do my sums, I am on the higher rate of tax, and then USC, Prsi, pension (you might say the last one is a choice but is it really in this day and age.)
On top there's Road Tax, NCT, TV licence, Property Tax, and my point is it doesn't end there, as everything you pay for has VAT 23% on it.
The gap between the rich and poor is one of the highest in Europe according to newstalk the other day.

relax carry on

Montgolfier wrote: »

Just utterly frustrated I work hard have a young family wife's not working so she minds the kids, we don't eat/drink out and we have feck all at the end of the month.
Granted I didn't do my sums, I am on the higher rate of tax, and then USC, Prsi, pension (you might say the last one is a choice but is it really in this day and age.)
On top there's Road Tax, NCT, TV licence, Property Tax, and my point is it doesn't end there, as everything you pay for has VAT 23% on it.
The gap between the rich and poor is one of the highest in Europe according to newstalk the other day.

You may want to revise that statement about Vat. Everything does not have 23% vat on it. There's a standard rate of 23% on some things, a reduced rate of 13.5% on others, a second reduced rate of 9% and then a zero rate.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/index.jsp

Mr. Incognito

Not a taxation matter

Ranting and raving that way

---

>

Montgolfier

Montgolfier wrote: »

I probably take home 40% of what I earn, if I spend that 40% take away another 23% so that leaves 17%. .

Eh... no

Joaquin223

Montgolfier wrote: »

I probably take home 40% of what I earn, if I spend that 40% take away another 23% so that leaves 17%.

What?

martinedwards

Modern slavery is where teenaged girls are lured by the promise of a job in the west and then shot up on drugs to keep them docile and used as prostitutes.

I think you'll find that you're paying more tax than you'd like to.

there is a slight difference, and there are a bunch of young women who would love to offer you a swop......

Terry Gilliam Beard

Montgolfier wrote: »

Just utterly frustrated I work hard have a young family wife's not working so she minds the kids, we don't eat/drink out and we have feck all at the end of the month.

Do you get children's allowance at all? Tax breaks for having children? 'Free' school (paid for by whom?)? Do you use roads, or healthcare at all?

Frank Lee Midere

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh... no

No indeed. The 40% is probably too high anyway. But even if all items cost 23% vat that can't be taken from the 60% "remainder".

VAT is added to the retail price. If an item would have cost 100 it costs 123 after tax. Of the sticker price then 18.6% is VAT.

If you spend all your income on VAT products you pay another 18.6% tax on the rest of your income. Nobody does.

The rest of the stuff - extra costs for health, property, eventually water does add up though.

Frank Lee Midere

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Do you get children's allowance at all? Tax breaks for having children? 'Free' school (paid for by whom?)? Do you use roads, or healthcare at all?

Surely the guy on the top end of the tax breaks is paying for all this, and more.

veryangryman

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Do you get children's allowance at all? Tax breaks for having children? 'Free' school (paid for by whom?)? Do you use roads, or healthcare at all?

So that means that the income is not taxed and he act spend it on what he chooses?

dxhound2005

Montgolfier wrote: »

Just utterly frustrated I work hard have a young family wife's not working so she minds the kids, we don't eat/drink out and we have feck all at the end of the month.
Granted I didn't do my sums, I am on the higher rate of tax, and then USC, Prsi, pension (you might say the last one is a choice but is it really in this day and age.)
On top there's Road Tax, NCT, TV licence, Property Tax, and my point is it doesn't end there, as everything you pay for has VAT 23% on it.
The gap between the rich and poor is one of the highest in Europe according to newstalk the other day.

Newstalk is owned by Denis O'Brien. Was it him that said it?

OttoPilot

I think I'm right in saying tax rates were much higher back in the 70s and 80s. My Granddad was an engineer and I remember him always complaining that the top rate of tax was above 50%! So I'd say current marginal tax rates aren't too bad in comparison seeing as they were at their lowest around 05/06.

The point of taxes is to pool people's money together for the greater social good. If there was no taxes you would have to pay extortionate hospital fees for privately built and run hospitals, education would be more expensive, who would pay for your roads too? You would, just at a higher price than the government does.

Yeah maybe taxes are too high atm because of bailing out banks, but that is what the electorate voted for when they voted for FG, FF, Greens and Labour

Artful_Badger

Montgolfier wrote: »

earning just enough to survive but not enough to change your situation.

Welcome to human existence. This is the life of the vast majority of people who have lived or ever will live on this planet.

Terry Gilliam Beard

veryangryman wrote: »

So that means that the income is not taxed and he act spend it on what he chooses?

No - but he's claiming he's a slave. You agree?

Banjo String

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Do you get children's allowance at all? Tax breaks for having children? 'Free' school (paid for by whom?)? Do you use roads, or healthcare at all?

Education isn't free.
The roads are tolled, motor tax is among the highest in Europe.
A recent visit to my gp, then referred me to a and easy, followed by a prescription ended up costing me the guts of €200.

How do you reckon they're all free

Terry Gilliam Beard

Banjo String wrote: »

Education isn't free.
The roads are tolled, motor tax is among the highest in Europe.
A recent visit to my gp, then referred me to a and easy, followed by a prescription ended up costing me the guts of €200.

How do you reckon they're all free

None of them are free - they are paid for with our taxes.

Do people still not realise this?

Banjo String

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

None of them are free - they are paid for with our taxes.

Do people still not realise this?

I'm sorry, I thought you were implying that they were free. I may have read your post wrong.

No Pants

OttoPilot wrote: »

I think I'm right in saying tax rates were much higher back in the 70s and 80s. My Granddad was an engineer and I remember him always complaining that the top rate of tax was above 50%! So I'd say current marginal tax rates aren't too bad in comparison seeing as they were at their lowest around 05/06.

I think the top rate of tax in the 80s was 65%.

I'm guessing maths was never your strong suit

The Backwards Man

Count yourself lucky OP.

I'm self employed and have to spend twice as much as I earn every year in order to break even.

No Pants

So other than the OP being wrong about absolutely everything, what have we learned from this thread so far?

Zillah

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I'm self employed and have to spend twice as much as I earn every year in order to break even.

Did I fall into fookin Maths Wonderland with this thread?

star_man

thought this was going to be about travellers luring homeless folk into bondage

Terry Gilliam Beard

star_man wrote: »

thought this was going to be about travellers luring homeless folk into bondage

Nah, it's about a guy paying taxes in a democracy to support public services and infrastructure.

shruikan2553

No Pants wrote: »

So other than the OP being wrong about absolutely everything, what have we learned from this thread so far?

That maths education is poor in this country.

diomed

The OP should take his routine ---> Stand-Up Comedy and Improv

taytothief

I love it, a guy complains about obscene levels of tax in this country, and everyone attacks him. Boards.ie

kumate_champ07

bikerjohn wrote: »

This is my Slavery!!

So an owner walks into his factory on a Monday morning and rounds up his staff and says ok I need all you guys to work for 20% less but I want increased output .I want a large %%% of you to work in a new factory 75 miles away but you can make your own way there everyday and I will not compensate you I want all of you guys to be supervisors in 5 years time but we only got (10 positions and there is 80 of you) if not your fired.I want jimmy who started yesterday to work alongside tony for 10% less oh and finally I want you all to SMILE while this is happening ...REACTION FROM STAFF well you can all guess that one ...Except if your a Member of the Irish Defence Forces then you just take it and take it once they have drained you financially they will go after you mentally because you got no more to give .Defence Force Members have suffered most in the Public Service (FACT).DDFPAC2014

should we be worried about invasion by another country? I dont know the exact details but it makes sense to cut that budget more than others.

also it seemed to be a gravy train for a long time. lads were retiring in their 50's , getting their army pension and working a part time job.

Terry Gilliam Beard

taytothief wrote: »

I love it, a guy complains about obscene levels of tax in this country, and everyone attacks him. Boards.ie

Taxes are higher in other countries.

I wonder did the OP ever vote for Fianna Failure - the short-termist's party? "JAM TODAY! (paid for with national bankruptcy tomorrow)"

clashburke

Montgolfier wrote: »

Am I right in saying the whole country is getting screwed on taxes.
I probably take home 40% of what I earn, if I spend that 40% take away another 23% so that leaves 17%.
Gov and people in the top jobs won't take a pay cut because they have huge mortgages and it wouldn't do If they couldn't pay the banks.
It amounts to Irish slavery earning just enough to survive but not enough to change your situation.

Montgolfier wrote: »

Just utterly frustrated I work hard have a young family wife's not working so she minds the kids, we don't eat/drink out and we have feck all at the end of the month.
Granted I didn't do my sums, I am on the higher rate of tax, and then USC, Prsi, pension (you might say the last one is a choice but is it really in this day and age.)
On top there's Road Tax, NCT, TV licence, Property Tax, and my point is it doesn't end there, as everything you pay for has VAT 23% on it.
The gap between the rich and poor is one of the highest in Europe according to newstalk the other day.

so you pay 20% on the first €32,800 and 41% on the rest of your income. Add to this 4%(ish) PRSI and 4% USC.

How in the name of Jesus are ya only taken home 40%??:rolleyes:

and VAT is not calculated that way!!

For Forks Sake

clashburke wrote: »

so you pay 20% on the first €32,800 and 41% on the rest of your income. Add to this 4%(ish) PRSI and 4% USC.

How in the name of Jesus are ya only taken home 40%??:rolleyes:

You don't even pay 20% on the first 32800 as OP has failed to factor the tax credits into their calculation as well

Stavros Murphy

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Nah, it's about a guy paying taxes in a democracy to support public services and infrastructure.

LOL. And bailouts, cock-ups, massive, obscene Public Pensions, white elephants and jobs for the boys.

I'd moan about the taxes I pay, but no-one would believe me and I'd be called a Walter Mitty, as per usual. A taster would be the 4.5k I forked over last week. Which was not that different to the week before.

Terry Gilliam Beard

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

LOL. And bailouts, cock-ups, massive, obscene Public Pensions, white elephants and jobs for the boys.

I'd moan about the taxes I pay, but no-one would believe me and I'd be called a Walter Mitty, as per usual. A taster would be the 4.5k I forked over last week. Which was not that different to the week before.

You must be earning well.

Sure, we are also paying for the property bust. Who voted for the people who created the bubble? About half the electorate. Take it up with them.

Frank Lee Midere

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Taxes are higher in other countries.

I wonder did the OP ever vote for Fianna Failure - the short-termist's party? "JAM TODAY! (paid for with national bankruptcy tomorrow)"

Direct marginal taxes on wages are amongst the highest in the world here and the marginal rate cones in lower than most places.

Terry Gilliam Beard

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Direct marginal taxes on wages are amongst the highest in the world here and the marginal rate cones in lower than most places.

Apologies for formatting. Our tax on labour is well below OECD average.

The average tax burden for those earning the average wage increased by a 0.5 percentage point rise in 2011 and 0.1 percentage points in 2012 to reach 35.6 per cent. This followed a decline from 36.1 to 35.0 per cent between 2007 and 2010. (See table 2 in excel).

Country Tax%
Belgium 56.0 0.12 0.00 -0.01 0.12
France 50.2 0.46 0.29 -0.03 0.20
Germany 49.7 0.53 0.18 0.17 0.18
Hungary 49.4 2.82 1.65 1.17 0.00
Austria 48.9 0.71 0.71 0.00 0.00
Italy 47.6 0.43 0.43 0.00 0.00
Sweden 42.8 0.09 0.10 -0.01 0.00
Finland 42.5 0.22 -0.52 0.40 0.33
Czech Republic 42.4 0.28 0.28 0.00 0.00
Slovenia 42.3 -0.19 -0.19 0.00 0.00
Greece 41.9 2.80 2.15 0.34 0.30
Spain 41.4 1.65 1.65 0.00 0.00
Estonia 40.4 0.31 0.31 0.00 0.00
Slovak Republic 39.6 1.71 0.82 -0.14 1.03
Netherlands 38.6 0.46 0.26 -0.10 0.30
Denmark 38.6 0.25 8.23 -7.99 0.00
Turkey 38.2 0.30 0.30 0.00 0.00
Norway 37.6 0.27 0.05 -0.02 0.24
Portugal 36.7 -0.39 -0.39 0.00 0.00
Luxembourg 35.8 1.43 0.79 0.01 0.64
Poland 35.5 1.26 0.04 -0.27 1.49
Iceland 34.5 1.15 1.90 -0.01 -0.73
United Kingdom 32.3 -0.25 -0.70 0.24 0.21
Japan 31.2 0.94 -0.15 0.55 0.53
Canada 30.8 0.32 -0.04 0.06 0.29
United States 29.6 -0.88 0.85 -1.83 0.10
Australia 27.2 0.38 0.62 0.00 -0.24
Ireland 25.9 0.12 3.73 -3.60 0.00
Switzerland 21.5 -0.13 -0.48 0.18 0.18
Korea 21.0 0.84 0.28 0.30 0.27
Israel 19.2 -0.22 -0.16 -0.07 0.01
Mexico 19.0 3.43 3.46 0.00 -0.03
New Zealand 16.4 -0.60 -0.60 0.00 0.00
Chile 7.0 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
OECD 35.6 0.6 0.8 -0.3 0.2

Frank Lee Midere

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Apologies for formatting. Our tax on labour is well below OECD average.Country Tax%
Belgium 56.0 0.12 0.00 -0.01 0.12
France 50.2 0.46 0.29 -0.03 0.20
Germany 49.7 0.53 0.18 0.17 0.18
Hungary 49.4 2.82 1.65 1.17 0.00
Austria 48.9 0.71 0.71 0.00 0.00
Italy 47.6 0.43 0.43 0.00 0.00
Sweden 42.8 0.09 0.10 -0.01 0.00
Finland 42.5 0.22 -0.52 0.40 0.33
Czech Republic 42.4 0.28 0.28 0.00 0.00
Slovenia 42.3 -0.19 -0.19 0.00 0.00
Greece 41.9 2.80 2.15 0.34 0.30
Spain 41.4 1.65 1.65 0.00 0.00
Estonia 40.4 0.31 0.31 0.00 0.00
Slovak Republic 39.6 1.71 0.82 -0.14 1.03
Netherlands 38.6 0.46 0.26 -0.10 0.30
Denmark 38.6 0.25 8.23 -7.99 0.00
Turkey 38.2 0.30 0.30 0.00 0.00
Norway 37.6 0.27 0.05 -0.02 0.24
Portugal 36.7 -0.39 -0.39 0.00 0.00
Luxembourg 35.8 1.43 0.79 0.01 0.64
Poland 35.5 1.26 0.04 -0.27 1.49
Iceland 34.5 1.15 1.90 -0.01 -0.73
United Kingdom 32.3 -0.25 -0.70 0.24 0.21
Japan 31.2 0.94 -0.15 0.55 0.53
Canada 30.8 0.32 -0.04 0.06 0.29
United States 29.6 -0.88 0.85 -1.83 0.10
Australia 27.2 0.38 0.62 0.00 -0.24
Ireland 25.9 0.12 3.73 -3.60 0.00
Switzerland 21.5 -0.13 -0.48 0.18 0.18
Korea 21.0 0.84 0.28 0.30 0.27
Israel 19.2 -0.22 -0.16 -0.07 0.01
Mexico 19.0 3.43 3.46 0.00 -0.03
New Zealand 16.4 -0.60 -0.60 0.00 0.00
Chile 7.0 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
OECD 35.6 0.6 0.8 -0.3 0.2

That's the "tax wedge". The difference between what an employee pays and what he gets but it includes the employers liability. Probably it's employer PRSI - but also other costs largely borne by the employer - in places like Brussels.

So for instance that shows the cost in Ireland to be 25% and in the UK it's 32% but income tax is higher here marginally and comes in at a lower salary.

52% is higher than pretty much anywhere else.

Terry Gilliam Beard

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That's the "tax wedge". The difference between what an employee pays and what he gets but it includes the employers liability. Probably it's employer PRSI - but also other costs largely borne by the employer - in places like Brussels.

It's not marginal rates on employees income. 52% is higher than pretty much anywhere else.

Yes, these figures specifically relate to average earners. Lower employers' liability implies both more jobs and higher wages/salaries. Obviously if you are earning huge money, you are paying a good whack in tax these days. But I sense that most Irish people like that idea ('fat cats', etc.).

Frank Lee Midere

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Yes, these figures specifically relate to average earners. Lower employers' liability implies both more jobs and higher wages/salaries. Obviously if you are earning huge money, you are paying a good whack in tax these days. But I sense that most Irish people like that idea ('fat cats', etc.).

Most people probably like the idea that the "fat cats" should pay more money but most people are wise enough to not equate slightly above wage earners with Fat cats. Unless they have an agenda.

The 52% kicks in at 32.8k for single earners.

Stavros Murphy

Direct taxation on income may be below the OECD average, but on the bit we take home, we get hammered with secondary taxes, charges and schemes - VRT for example..ahem, go defend that..or taxation on fuels, cigarettes, alcohol, now homes, water soon to be, high insurance rates, massive rates of Vehicle Tax compared to elsewhere, very high prices for day to day goods compared to almost the entire rest of the world, huge hikes in the cost of essential medicines, very high rents, expensive public transport.

So basically, we start out having a fairly high rate of taxation, then get rogered up the Finn McCool with the unavoidable cost of daily living.

Terry Gilliam Beard

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Most people probably like the idea that the "fat cats" should pay more money but most people are wise enough to not equate slightly above wage earners with Fat cats. Unless they have an agenda.

The 52% kicks in at 32.8k for single earners.

Most people are wise? I wish. Who the hell was voting for the corrupt bubble merchants from the late 90s to the late 2000s?

The 32.8k assumes no family or other allowances, right?

losthorizon

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Taxes are higher in other countries.

I wonder did the OP ever vote for Fianna Failure - the short-termist's party? "JAM TODAY! (paid for with national bankruptcy tomorrow)"

WE have one of the lowest tax rates in Europe.

I would actually be in favour of higher tax rates and better services.

Although I think bin collections should be free (would help to stop illegal dumping) but can see the rationale in getting people to pay for it but am totally in favour of water charges.

Frank Lee Midere

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Most people are wise? I wish. Who the hell was voting for the corrupt bubble merchants from the late 90s to the late 2000s?

The 32.8k assumes no family or other allowances, right?

It's the standard tax rate. Is it higher and does it come in at a lower rate than most of Europe or not?

Answer. Yes it does. Therefore the standard marginal rate on wages is the highest in Europe by a long shot.

Frank Lee Midere

losthorizon wrote: »

WE have one of the lowest tax rates in Europe.

I would actually be in favour of higher tax rates and better services.

Although I think bin collections should be free (would help to stop illegal dumping) but can see the rationale in getting people to pay for it but am totally in favour of water charges.

Why don't we get better services already for the 52% marginal? When are the public sector going to step up to the plate?

Donkey Oaty

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Why don't we get better services already for the 52% marginal?

Or in some cases, even just services.

Terry Gilliam Beard

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

It's the standard tax rate. Is it higher and does it come in at a lower rate than most of Europe or not?

Answer. Yes it does. Therefore the standard marginal rate on wages is the highest in Europe by a long shot.

And yet I posted a table that shows the taxes on labour for the average worker to be amongst the lowest in the OECD, and well below the average.

Perhaps you have a table of the marginal rates in the OECD you could post to support your argument? Baldly stating that 52% is the highest in Europe doesn't really convince me.

Frank Lee Midere

I'm am always amused by the skirting around with figures here. I originally said

"Direct marginal taxes on wages re amongst the highest in the world here and the marginal rate cones in lower than most places."

Which is unequivocally true. As anybody who earns more than 32k as a wage would know. In fact this affects anybody on that wage and anybody aspiring to it. I opposed it when I earned less than 32k.

I didn't say income. I said wages. There are all kinds of income and any millionaire who is paying 52% on earnings more than 32K has a very bad accountant indeed. For instance CGT is only 30%, money can be hidden in pensions, some investments accrue no tax on capital gains at all. Or you can earn tax free money as a gift, or as an inheritance ( to a limit), or sell you house in Dalkey for a 3 million profit and earn 250k per year of occupancy paying no tax as it was the family home, as Ireland's most earnest egalitarian did quite recently. Rich people would know more tricks, but nobody who is a real fat cat is paying 52% on 32.8k and above.

It's the sum of all these figures - and the low to non-existant corporation tax - which is used to "prove" overall tax rates are low, and we can't expect decent services from people earning 200k as hospital administrators.

But the 52% taken from my minuscule bonus this year tells me otherwise. And I do expect better services, and now.

Cool Mo D

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Most people probably like the idea that the "fat cats" should pay more money but most people are wise enough to not equate slightly above wage earners with Fat cats. Unless they have an agenda.

The 52% kicks in at 32.8k for single earners.

The high band income tax rate is actually 41%, so I don't know what you're talking about with 52%.

As an actual example, a single person earning €60,000 a year has an effective tax rate of 29.5%, including PRSI and USC. If they were earning €100,000 a year, they would have an effective rate of 34%. At a salary of €250,000, you pay an effective rate of 38%. It's basically impossible to be paying half your income in tax.