Men who agree with corporal punishment

OldRio

I took a few beatings in my time from my Dad. In all honesty I deserved them. Perhaps if we had sat down and discussed my misdemeanors it would have been better. Discussed my 'feelings', yeah right.

I brought 2 boys up. The eldest I smacked twice and the youngest once. Counseling was not needed. Psychoanalysis was not needed.

So much BS nowadays. The do gooders are ruining society, and making a pretty penny in the process. Far to much hippy drippy tree hugging going on.

Waking-Dreams

As Standman already pointed out… people having been moaning about this particular issue for a long time. Yes, we can all think of examples of unruly children and teenagers but it is very easy to notice these negative examples and then conveniently ignore the cases of children and teenagers behaving themselves.

Stories in the media and anecdotes carry a lot of weight whereas the details of a 15 year old that went about their day harming no one, maybe even helping some elderly person cross the road, doesn’t make for interesting reading. We’ll easily remember a few examples of violence which may only be a mere fraction of how most children/teenagers behave and then cast a wide net saying, ‘oh, it’s worse than ever, I don’t remember things being this bad before’. That’s what statistics are for, not people engaging in confirmation bias and arbitrary inference.

Just because there are lots of parents engaging in permissive parenting does not mean the answer is a wide-scale return to authoritarian mode. Studies do show that authoritative parenting is the best method but I’m sure parents mix and match different styles based on many factors, as well as their own childhood experience with their parents.

kellaman123

source wrote: »

It's all well and good saying we've move on as a society, but you only have to look around to see g how different things are today compared to 20 years ago when smacking wasn't frowned upon.

There's more violent crime and anti social behavior from youths, there's no respect for authority and there is a complete lack of any way to deal with it.

Kids today don't learn lessons from standing in the bold corner for 2 minutes, they don't fear the punishment, and if you don't fear a punishment you don't have anything to hold you back from doing whatever you want.

The phrase "wait till your father gets home" used to stop me in my tracks even though I can only remember him hitting me twice in my whole childhood.

These days if parents try to discipline unruly kids, the kids threaten to report them for child abuse.

Kids have no fear, and without fear there is no regulation of behavior, and they grow up into the kind of teens most people cross the road to avoid.

I have to agree. We have raised a generation with zero respect for authority and the level of antisocial behaviour is shocking. Likewise in my home corporal punishment was more a deterrent and on the rare occasion my brother and I got the belt or the wooden spoon we learned from it. Kids today have no accountability and the threat over parents from the law means that a lot of parents won't take any action

234

source wrote: »

There's more violent crime and anti social behavior from youths, there's no respect for authority and there is a complete lack of any way to deal with it.

Actually, violent crime was at its peak at a time when the young male (the most likely category to the a victim or perpetrator or crime) was raised in a culture where CP was common. However, the decline in crime rates began when this would still have been true.

So there is no real link between CP and violent crime that can easily be asserted.

http://www.crimecouncil.gov.ie/downloads/CrimeReport.pdf

source

234 wrote: »

Actually, violent crime was at its peak at a time when the young male (the most likely category to the a victim or perpetrator or crime) was raised in a culture where CP was common. However, the decline in crime rates began when this would still have been true.

So there is no real link between CP and violent crime that can easily be asserted.

http://www.crimecouncil.gov.ie/downloads/CrimeReport.pdf

I'm a former member of AGS, my comments are based on first hand experience, while some parents call the Gardai when their kids go wild a lot don't, and those that do make the call rarely follow through.

Which means crime stats don't reflect what is actually happening on the street.

kellaman123

source wrote: »

I'm a former member of AGS, my comments are based on first hand experience, while some parents call the Gardai when their kids go wild a lot don't, and those that do make the call rarely follow through.

Which means crime stats don't reflect what is actually happening on the street.

I would also take any results on crime stats with a pinch of salt and they don't prove anything on the efficacy of corporal punishment in the home place.
I would not relish the duties of AGS in dealing with delinquent teens today. I think we have probably all heard stories of gardai bring taunted and goaded by yobs who think they are untouchable as the gardai try and go about their duties.
The sad thing is these kids are untouchable by the gardai and what's more they know it.
When I was growing up we always had respect for the law and we would nearly have been terrified of serving gardai on the beat. Never mind corporal punishment in the home, the days of the gardai giving you a clip around the ear are sorely missed as well!

tomh1736

I would say that there is little difference in Ireland in how men and women perceive corporal punishment, the general feeling would be that we as a nation are very anti smacking. The real interesting thing is how we differ in our view of this issue when compared with other countries.
I lived in Singapore for a number of years. A country with a clearly defined set of laws and harsh penalties for the breaching of these laws. The judicial system in Singapore permits corporal punishment (primarily caning). It may seem harsh but the reality is, there is very little public order offences. There is hardly any graffiti, vandalism and intimidating behaviour in teenagers is relatively unheard of. In a nutshell, the system works and the people know what can happen if they break the law so in the vast majority of cases they choose not to.
I think if we were living in certain countries in the world today, this debate on corporal punishment wouldn't be happening. In Sweden corporal punishment is outlawed so society has evolved to the point that its relatively unheard of. In Asian countries like Singapore it is utilised and I would say accepted that parents smack their children and some use a belt, slipper etc and the society there and indeed the law accepts this.
The whole issue can be seen as cultural therefore. The real problem in Ireland is that corporal punishment has not been outlawed and legally the law allows for reasonable chastisement of a child. Its this definition that is clearly ambiguous. What constitutes "reasonable chastisement"?
Personally I feel that slap on the behind of a small child is perfectly acceptable and when I hear stories of teens getting involved in nuisance behaviour and instilling fear in other citizens especially the elderly I wouldn't see a problem in a parent taking a belt to their behind.

ongarboy

It's a hard one to answer. I and my siblings grew up with it but it remains one of the more unpleasant memories of my childhood as all I can remember is the absolute terror of it but I think that's due to the belittling, esteem damaging and cruel way it was threatened and dished out and often not for just cause. I know many others as proved here say it didn't do them any harm but if the risk is there to cause harm (mental or physical) then it's an unacceptable risk imo.

This doesn't mean kids need to be moly-coddled or not take responsibility for their actions or learn what is right or wrong. I do think there other ways effective discipline can be dished out. Denial of privileges and treats until the lesson is learned in practice, teaching your children why their behaviour is unacceptable in a calm and non confrontational manner and applying such non physical discipline in a consistent and fair manner so the child isn't confused by the discipline. I'm not a parent so it's hard to give a quantifable response so it's just an opinion only.

tomh1736

ongarboy wrote: »

It's a hard one to answer. I and my siblings grew up with it but it remains one of the more unpleasant memories of my childhood as all I can remember is the absolute terror of it but I think that's due to the belittling, esteem damaging and cruel way it was threatened and dished out and often not for just cause. I know many others as proved here say it didn't do them any harm but if the risk is there to cause harm (mental or physical) then it's an unacceptable risk imo.

This doesn't mean kids need to be moly-coddled or not take responsibility for their actions or learn what is right or wrong. I do think there other ways effective discipline can be dished out. Denial of privileges and treats until the lesson is learned in practice, teaching your children why their behaviour is unacceptable in a calm and non confrontational manner and applying such non physical discipline in a consistent and fair manner so the child isn't confused by the discipline. I'm not a parent so it's hard to give a quantifable response so it's just an opinion only.

I can accept that if the punishment was doled out in the manner that you describe then it was a negative experience and somewhat harmful to you and your siblings. In my home it was different. Yes my mother was a big advocate of the bedroom slipper and my father would take the belt to us but it wasn't used that frequently and I can safely say that for all the corporal punishment I received, I received a hell of a lot more love and encouragement from my parents. That was in the seventies and eighties and I don't think I was treated any differently than my peers at that time, I don't think we were all abused and I don't accept that it has had a negative effect on us all as adults.
Some of the youth of today have simply gone beyond the naughty step or taking away the pocket money or the x-box. Maybe if corporal punishment was used as a last resort it might have the desired effect

Sleepy

tomh1736 wrote: »

I can safely say that for all the corporal punishment I received, I received a hell of a lot more love and encouragement from my parents.

While I'm not an advocate of banning corporal punishment, I think that love and encouragement is what the teenage delinquents are missing far more than a good clip across the ear (though, tbh, I would love to see members of AGS given the right to administer such to misbehaving youths).

The problem as I'd see it, is that there's no way any agent of the state can fill such a gap. Unless of course, we go down the route of removing children from unsuitable parents and having them adopted by more suitable ones but just try and get that one past the electorate...

santana75

source wrote: »

I'm a former member of AGS, my comments are based on first hand experience, while some parents call the Gardai when their kids go wild a lot don't, and those that do make the call rarely follow through.

Which means crime stats don't reflect what is actually happening on the street.

Absolutley. I have a relative who is a member of AGS an this is exactly what she says. The stats do not tell the real story of whats going on in the streets.

Sleepy wrote: »

While I'm not an advocate of banning corporal punishment, I think that love and encouragement is what the teenage delinquents are missing far more than a good clip across the ear (though, tbh, I would love to see members of AGS given the right to administer such to misbehaving youths).

The problem as I'd see it, is that there's no way any agent of the state can fill such a gap. Unless of course, we go down the route of removing children from unsuitable parents and having them adopted by more suitable ones but just try and get that one past the electorate...

I'd be inclined to agree that this is the problem at its very core. Its kids coming from homes where they're really not wanted that act out they're anger in the streets.

234

source wrote: »

I'm a former member of AGS, my comments are based on first hand experience, while some parents call the Gardai when their kids go wild a lot don't, and those that do make the call rarely follow through.

Which means crime stats don't reflect what is actually happening on the street.

With all respect to your past career, annecdotal experience is not any kind of basis for argument. Statistics may not be perfect, particularly crime statistics, but personal stories have absolutely no value as rhetorical tools.

donvito99

Mistook thread title as capital punishment.... I thought reserving it for children was a little odd alright.

donvito99

Mistook thread title as capital punishment.... I thought reserving it for children was a little odd alright.

santana75

234 wrote: »

With all respect to your past career, annecdotal experience is not any kind of basis for argument. Statistics may not be perfect, particularly crime statistics, but personal stories have absolutely no value as rhetorical tools.

What? Its all about personal stories. Its about people and their direct experiences on the streets, its not about numbers. Theres a lot of reasons why crimes go unreported. Fear of intimidation, lack of faith in the justice system are just two of the big ones. A lot of the time the Gardai just dont show up and when that happens you lose faith that the law has your back.

source

234 wrote: »

With all respect to your past career, annecdotal experience is not any kind of basis for argument. Statistics may not be perfect, particularly crime statistics, but personal stories have absolutely no value as rhetorical tools.

My experiences inform my opinions, especially on this matter, and in an informal conversation such as this anecdotes play an important role in getting ones point across.

I would agree with you if this were a forum of real change and what we discussed actually went towards changes in policy, but this is not the case.

I could sit here and spout statistics which I know are skewed because of the lack of people willing to go through with prosecutions and all would appear rosy.

Or I could make points based and what I have seen on the streets of our country. Personally I believe the latter would make for the more interesting and informative discussion.

234

I see what you are getting at.

I think that it was a point worth making though.

efb

kellaman123 wrote: »

We have moved on alright and not necessarily for the better'

We are better off. The roses tinted spectacles are just that

kellaman123

source wrote: »

My experiences inform my opinions, especially on this matter, and in an informal conversation such as this anecdotes play an important role in getting ones point across.

I would agree with you if this were a forum of real change and what we discussed actually went towards changes in policy, but this is not the case.

I could sit here and spout statistics which I know are skewed because of the lack of people willing to go through with prosecutions and all would appear rosy.

Or I could make points based and what I have seen on the streets of our country. Personally I believe the latter would make for the more interesting and informative discussion.

I think the real experience of people on the streets like the gardai is far more relevant than any statistics. The way I see it is the AGS do the best job they can but they are in an unenviable position in dealing with delinquent kids due to lack of any real ability to do anything. I'm not sure the parents are always at fault either and that those teens causing public disorder always come from your stereotypical troubled home on rough estates with disinterested parents! A lot of the teens causing the bother are well heeled kids from privileged homes with caring interested parents.

santana75

kellaman123 wrote: »

I'm not sure the parents are always at fault either and that those teens causing public disorder always come from your stereotypical troubled home on rough estates with disinterested parents! A lot of the teens causing the bother are well heeled kids from privileged homes with caring interested parents.

Im not so sure about that. When I was growing up any kid who was trouble out on the streets came from a home that was pretty dysfunctional. And this is something I saw with my own eyes, it wasnt just a case of jumping to conclusions about the kind of home they came from. I knew some genuine scary/crazy people and they did not grow up in a nurturing loving environment, they grew up in the Manson family home.

kellaman123

santana75 wrote: »

Im not so sure about that. When I was growing up any kid who was trouble out on the streets came from a home that was pretty dysfunctional. And this is something I saw with my own eyes, it wasnt just a case of jumping to conclusions about the kind of home they came from. I knew some genuine scary/crazy people and they did not grow up in a nurturing loving environment, they grew up in the Manson family home.

That's as may be and I'm not denying there's a lot of problem kids from the dysfunctional families but sometimes the double income families with their own prospering business and posh houses can be responsible for the most troublesome demon spawn. A lot of these kids are nightmares because they have everything and are spoilt rotten as opposed to the other kids who don't have very much. In any case whatever the socioeconomic class the problem of delinquent teens stems from a lack of real and proper discipline in the home.

Boskowski

I don't believe in it.
I was on the receiving end of it when a child/teenager and I don't think I would have turned out worse without it. My dad just didn't know it any other way I suppose. But it didn't do much for our relationship especially as it was applied across the board even as punishment for relatively minor offences and I would absolutely oppose it when used like that.
Having said that I could see situations where there just may be no other answer. People can be absolutely horrible and children or teenagers are not exempt from that.
I wouldn't advocate it or even practice it but I wouldn't say never ever under no circumstances.

P.S. What was the women's view by the way. In favour or against?

Call Me Jimmy

kellaman123 wrote: »

That's as may be and I'm not denying there's a lot of problem kids from the dysfunctional families but sometimes the double income families with their own prospering business and posh houses can be responsible for the most troublesome demon spawn. A lot of these kids are nightmares because they have everything and are spoilt rotten as opposed to the other kids who don't have very much. In any case whatever the socioeconomic class the problem of delinquent teens stems from a lack of real and proper discipline in the home.

I would argue, if we're talking in broad terms, no matter how obnoxious someone is from prosperous parents who wouldn't dream of hitting their child, they are a lot less dangerous than the people from the other end of the spectrum who were taught through violence. These people I would say are a lot more volatile.

All just for discussion I mean, I'm not for one second saying this is factually based, but I'd guess if there were stats they'd back this.

ofcork

I firmly believe since it was stopped in schools lack of respect for authority has increased,i remember getting the baton in school and you wouldn't do it again,lines or detention wouldn't have the same effect.

tomh1736

ofcork wrote: »

I firmly believe since it was stopped in schools lack of respect for authority has increased,i remember getting the baton in school and you wouldn't do it again,lines or detention wouldn't have the same effect.

I'm not so sure it was a good thing in the schooling system and I think if it was reintroduced today there would be anarchy among the parents. I think a lot of the teachers would end up getting a hiding from the parents. In the home though that's another matter. If a parent wishes to use corporal punishment and they feel it makes a difference in how their kids behave then they should be allowed to use it without the threat of prosecution

Waking-Dreams

There’s a slight problem with people stating “things are worse than ever”. And that’s because every generation has, in some form or another, said that young people are out of control, have no respect for their elders, etc.

This is not a new phenomenon.

Speaking personally, the behaviour that many of us 30-somethings engaged in back in the day would have been seen by the older generation as anti-social and disrespectful. I remember being told off by a woman on my street for spitting on the pavement. In her eyes, that behaviour was despicable and me rolling my eyes at her comments would have been perceived by her as “no respect for authority”.

kellaman123 wrote: »

I think the real experience of people on the streets like the gardai is far more relevant than any statistics

While the real life experiences of people ‘on the streets’ should not be disregarded, at the same time, one cannot just draw a concrete conclusion from only a small sample of behaviour in the population.

For example, AGS, as one example, are typically only going to come into contact with people who engage in anti-social behaviour, etc. (given the nature of their jobs) and so will always see the very worst of people. But that means that the majority of other kids who don’t break any laws or engage in anti-social behaviour are not being taken into account.

I take the point that not all anti-social behaviour is officially reported but, at the same time, if good behaviour is not also taken into account then all you are getting from these first-hand testimonies is a skewed example of how bad things are out there. The argument swings both ways, essentially.

Waking-Dreams

kellaman123 wrote: »

That's as may be and I'm not denying there's a lot of problem kids from the dysfunctional families but sometimes the double income families with their own prospering business and posh houses can be responsible for the most troublesome demon spawn. A lot of these kids are nightmares because they have everything and are spoilt rotten as opposed to the other kids who don't have very much. In any case whatever the socioeconomic class the problem of delinquent teens stems from a lack of real and proper discipline in the home.

You could also add that those from higher socio-economic households may also be able to afford much better solicitors to represent their offspring if they go before a judge.

So, yes, it is important not to make anti-social behaviour become a label that gets attached to just working class backgrounds (but it definitely is there, no doubt about it).

However, I do question the argument about a lack of parental discipline being the sole cause of delinquent teens. Personality is not just a matter of nurture (upbringing) but encompasses nature as well (the genes you are born with). There are genetic predispositions which can be hard to counteract even with the best of parenting.

And then there is the whole social psychology side of anti-social behaviour: people will engage in risky behaviour if it leads to status and acceptance as part of the group. In the case of those on the margins of society, perhaps they have fewer ways to gain status amongst their peers. Look at the whole ASBO ‘score board’ phenomenon that happened in the UK. The kids were trying to compete with one another over who could get the most.

reprazant

There seems to be discussions going on here. Most people seem to be talking about giving their kids a smack when they are bad, which is not necessarily a bad thing when done right and when necessary. The OP seems to be talking about getting his belt out and beating his or others kids. I cannot agree with that. Regardless of my opinion, it is not as if there is only two options available to parents, do nothing or beat their kids.

I never had an upbringing like that. I did get smacked but both my parents grew up in houses where they were beaten for everything and anything with differing results. All it did was to make my parents swear that they would never bring up their kids like that and they didn't and we didn't turn out like delinquents.

kellaman123

The OP seems to be talking about getting his belt out and beating his or others kids. I cannot agree with that. Regardless of my opinion, it is not as if there is only two options available to parents, do nothing or beat their kids.

I did not refer at any time to taking of my belt and beating my kids or any other kids (I don't have any kids as it happens). I was merely making the point that corporal punishment can have an important role to play in disciplining kids. I received the belt growing up and I'm sure a lot of other people did and I don't feel that all parents who used it back then were abusers and all who received it were abused, on the contrary I grew up in a very loving home with great parents.

I'm aware of the fact that it's not exactly PC today to discipline kids in this way and the law comes down heavy on anyone who does it. I'm just stating that maybe if it was permitted we might see less teenage yobs misbehaving!

reprazant

kellaman123 wrote: »

I did not refer at any time to taking of my belt and beating my kids or any other kids (I don't have any kids as it happens).

Well, in your OP you asked the following

kellaman123 wrote: »

Do we need a return to the days of the belt and the wooden spoon?

and repeatedly stated that a good dose of the belt or the wooden spoon does not harm. If you didn't say it, you seem to be implying it quite a bit. Now, I got the wooden spoon as a kid but there is a massive difference between getting smacked with the wooden spoon and getting the belt.

kellaman123 wrote: »

I'm aware of the fact that it's not exactly PC today to discipline kids in this way and the law comes down heavy on anyone who does it.

This is just rubbish. If you are of the opinion that the only way to disciple a child is through using a belt, then I don't know. As I said, there is a gap as wide as the grand canyon between spoiling a child and belting them with a belt as the go to way of disciple.