Men who agree with corporal punishment

kellaman123

I have posted on this issue previously in other forums and tend to get a very biased one sided argument mostly from women! I would wonder do men vary much in their opinion of corporal punishment and it's effectiveness as a type of discipline today. Just reading a previous thread on this forum on aggressive behaviour in teens and it seems there's at least some men out there who feel corporal punishment is useful in dealing with it. So lads are we for or against smacking? Is it acceptable? Do we need a return to the days of the belt and the wooden spoon?

Borderfox

Some people only understand violence, if that's the case then give them what they require

GarIT

It is not right at all, and psychological studies has shown it is not effective.

Iang87

did me no harm. Hit them all

Borderfox

Tell that to the recipient's of their friendly cajoling.

kellaman123

GarIT wrote: »

It is not right at all, and psychological studies has shown it is not effective.

Can you quote any of these studies and there so called ineffective findings!

GarIT

I'll have to get the GF to find them but I will later.

Wilfork

kellaman123 wrote: »

I have posted on this issue previously in other forums and tend to get a very biased one sided argument mostly from women! I would wonder do men vary much in their opinion of corporal punishment and it's effectiveness as a type of discipline today. Just reading a previous thread on this forum on aggressive behaviour in teens and it seems there's at least some men out there who feel corporal punishment is useful in dealing with it. So lads are we for or against smacking? Is it acceptable? Do we need a return to the days of the belt and the wooden spoon?

Are you talking about in relation to women? As in, putting her over your knee if she gets a bit stroppy? I'm tempted to say you've been watching too many John Wayne movies, but some people actually like that!

Call Me Jimmy

I wouldn't hit my dogs and I wouldn't hit a child. It is just laziness which could easily manifest in unpredictable ways down the line.

kellaman123

Wilfork wrote: »

Are you talking about in relation to women? As in, putting her over your knee if she gets a bit stroppy? I'm tempted to say you've been watching too many John Wayne movies, but some people actually like that!

Don't loose the run of yourself now! Not talking about the kinky stuff. Talking about corporal punishment of children and how mend opinions may differ a little from the ladies on the issue!

Wilfork

kellaman123 wrote: »

Don't loose the run of yourself now! Not talking about the kinky stuff. Talking about corporal punishment of children and how mend opinions may differ a little from the ladies on the issue!

You need to make a parallel thread. I'd be much more interested in talking about that

kellaman123

Wilfork wrote: »

You need to make a parallel thread. I'd be much more interested in talking about that

I'm sure that can be arranged lol!

kangaroo

FWIW:

I'm not sure what my position on it in schools is based on what we had:
When I was school, in a private school, corporal punishment was on the way out. Only the principal could give it. You were asked whether your parents gave permission. I genuinely preferred the option of the biff (three slaps on from a thick rubber strap - can't remember was it on one or both hands) than the thought of having to spend 40 minutes (or whatever) doing an essay on life on the inside of a ping pong ball or whatever so I said my parents gave permission as did most guys (it was an all boys school).

However, I wouldn't have liked what it was like in my parents' day when the individual teachers did it and sometimes lashed out in anger.

And I don't think I would have liked it if everyone had to have corporal punishment. But with the choice element, I actually preferred the corporal punishment than the much longer written penalties.

Standman

People have been moaning about "out of control teens" since before, during, and after the corporal punishment days. It wasn't a solution then and it isn't now. The most troublesome kids I knew growing up were the ones whose parents beat them. How about some actual parenting instead of trying to beat your children into submission.

Also, I don't think there would be a drastic difference of opinion between men and women on this and I'm not sure why anyone would think there would be.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

I believe people should give their mates a dig in the arm (or the ribs) if they're acting the dick, because sometimes we all need a friendly, yet effective, reminder not to be a tw@t...

But apart from that, I don't think corporal punishment is an affective means of order.

source

I think it has its place, I'm not talking about beating a child. I'm talking about one or two light smacks across the back of the thigh or butt.

Not enough to hurt but enough to shock.

And not for the tiniest transgression, it should be reserved for serous misbehaviour.

Peregrinus

Generally people who are subejcted to violence are brutalised by the process, not morally improved by it; we see examples of this all around us, all the time. I can't rule out the possiblity that some people, on some occasions, might have absorbed a useful lesson through corporal punishment, but if it happens at all it will be the exception rather than the rule.

Grayfoxy

kellaman123 wrote: »

I have posted on this issue previously in other forums and tend to get a very biased one sided argument mostly from women! I would wonder do men vary much in their opinion of corporal punishment and it's effectiveness as a type of discipline today. Just reading a previous thread on this forum on aggressive behaviour in teens and it seems there's at least some men out there who feel corporal punishment is useful in dealing with it. So lads are we for or against smacking? Is it acceptable? Do we need a return to the days of the belt and the wooden spoon?

In schools, no. By the parents, yes.

I am for it, 25 now, the punishment for being bold was always a smacked as a child, I never once in my life have gone knacker drinking, still address my elders as Mr./Mrs. "X", I say hello to people on the street, I would say I am a pretty well behaved person.

It depends on drawing the line so it does not turn into abuse.

But, different strokes for different folks.

Grayfoxy

Peregrinus wrote: »

Generally people who are subejcted to violence are brutalised by the process, not morally improved by it; we see examples of this all around us, all the time. I can't rule out the possiblity that some people, on some occasions, might have absorbed a useful lesson through corporal punishment, but if it happens at all it will be the exception rather than the rule.

That's bullcrap

itsirishfarmer

spare the rod and spoil the child


King James Version of the Bible, Book of Proverbs, 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Peregrinus

Grayfoxy wrote: »

That's bullcrap

Or, as we English-speakers say, common sense.

Liam McPoyle

I was smacked as a child (on the hand or arse, never anywhere else), I also got the wooden spoon on occasion too, so were my siblings, so were pretty much every one of my mates, cousins, most people I know. Pretty much every one turned out to be well adjusted and "normal" adults.

I dont have kids at the moment but I definitely want at least one in the future and tbh, I would have no hesitation on giving them a slap if they deserved it.

Now, when I say deserved it, I mean it would be in extreme circumstances. For example, if your child ran across a road without stopping, looking etc, a finger wagging or telling off is not going to stick in their mind in relation to the severity of what they had done but a firm slap on the arse, you can be damn sure they will remember that.

The problem with "corporal punishment"* is that like everything, some people will take it too far and thats when it turns into abuse which is another kettle of fish altogether.




*I dont think the term corporal punishment fits when it comes to giving your child a smack on the arse. CP is to me someone getting flogged or whipped and I reckon the term is used by the PC brigade to try and push their agenda. Anti corporal punishment sounds a helluva lot more fearsome than anti smacking.

Peregrinus

Coleman Slawski wrote: »

I dont think the term corporal punishment fits when it comes to giving your child a smack on the arse. CP is to me someone getting flogged or whipped and I reckon the term is used by the PC brigade to try and push their agenda. Anti corporal punishment sounds a helluva lot more fearsome than anti smacking.

The OP asks about corporal punishment used against aggressive behaviour in teenagers. I don't think he has a smack on the arse in mind.

Liam McPoyle

kellaman123 wrote: »

I have posted on this issue previously in other forums and tend to get a very biased one sided argument mostly from women! I would wonder do men vary much in their opinion of corporal punishment and it's effectiveness as a type of discipline today. Just reading a previous thread on this forum on aggressive behaviour in teens and it seems there's at least some men out there who feel corporal punishment is useful in dealing with it. So lads are we for or against smacking? Is it acceptable? Do we need a return to the days of the belt and the wooden spoon?

Peregrinus wrote: »

The OP asks about corporal punishment used against aggressive behaviour in teenagers. I don't think he has a smack on the arse in mind.

Im pretty sure he was on about disciplining kids.

You think the OP was on about using a wooden spoon on rowdy teens?

OP, can you clarify?

Grayfoxy

Peregrinus wrote: »

Or, as we English-speakers say, common sense.

I see no benefit to adding "English-speakers" to that sentence, can you explain what you are implying by that?

Anyway, it would seem that the people who were smacked as a child would agree it does work (like myself)

Please do go on, give me some examples of what we see everyday to indicate it does not work.

Peregrinus

Grayfoxy wrote: »

I see no benefit to adding "English-speakers" to that sentence, can you explain what you are implying by that?

I was suggesting that if thought what I said was bullcrap, you should have found the language to explain why.

Grayfoxy wrote: »

Anyway, it would seem that the people who were smacked as a child would agree it does work (like myself)

First of all, you need to show that other people who were punished agree with you.

Secondly, the mere fact that you now polite and well-behaved does not mean that corporal punishment made you so. Are you say that if you had not been hit, you would now be rude, violent and antisocial?

Grayfoxy wrote: »

Please do go on, give me some examples of what we see everyday to indicate it does not work.

Well, as I say, we can first of all apply common sense to the problem. We know that children learn by modelling the behaviour of their parents. When you hit a child for behaviour that you don’t like, the lesson he primarily learns is not that you don’t like the behaviour - presumably he already knew that. The lesson is that it’s acceptable to hit people for behaviour that you don’t like. In fact, even children who witness corporal punishment being inflicted learn the same lesson.

And observation bears out common sense. There’s abundant studies that show that children who are subjected or exposed to corporal punishment display more aggression than those who are not. Have a look at this research from Canada, or this research from the US. In homes where children are hit, wives and girlfriends are more likely to be hit too. This research from the Netherland suggest that chidren who are hit are at increased risk of cognitive impairment, and this research suggests a link to later cancer, cardiac disease and asthma (all of which are stress-related conditions). In the US, the more that teenagers are hit, the less likely they are to graduate from college. Again in the US, children in states where corporal punishment is practiced have a 50% greater risk of dying in a school shooting that children in states where it is banned. In fact, there's a linear relationship; the higher the observed incidence of corporal punishme in a state, the higher the mortality rate from school shootings in that state.

And why would we expect any different outcome? The notion that there's a particular category of violence against defenceless people that we can cordon off and practice against children without them absorbing certain lessons about the use of violence against defenceless people is not an obviously plausible one. Violence from a physically superior opponent is not just painful; it's humiliating, particularly to teenagers. And if anybody thinks we can morally improve teenagers by humiliating them, that person has forgotten what it is to be a teenager.

kellaman123

Coleman Slawski wrote: »

Im pretty sure he was on about disciplining kids.

You think the OP was on about using a wooden spoon on rowdy teens?

OP, can you clarify?

All I will say was as a teen growing up 30 years ago there was nothing that had a more sobering influence on me when acting the maggot than seeing my dad reach for the belt. On the couple of occasions when he used it I learned a lesson and you know what I don't think I was abused or mistreated in any way.

efb

No we have moved on as a society

kellaman123

efb wrote: »

No we have moved on as a society

We have moved on alright and not necessarily for the better'

source

It's all well and good saying we've move on as a society, but you only have to look around to see g how different things are today compared to 20 years ago when smacking wasn't frowned upon.

There's more violent crime and anti social behavior from youths, there's no respect for authority and there is a complete lack of any way to deal with it.

Kids today don't learn lessons from standing in the bold corner for 2 minutes, they don't fear the punishment, and if you don't fear a punishment you don't have anything to hold you back from doing whatever you want.

The phrase "wait till your father gets home" used to stop me in my tracks even though I can only remember him hitting me twice in my whole childhood.

These days if parents try to discipline unruly kids, the kids threaten to report them for child abuse.

Kids have no fear, and without fear there is no regulation of behavior, and they grow up into the kind of teens most people cross the road to avoid.

bbam

How on earth do people think that teaching children that slapping and physically hurting and humiliating somebody is appropriate behaviour for any reason, how can this be acceptable??
Slap someone about = they do what you want.

Not a good message !

OldRio

I took a few beatings in my time from my Dad. In all honesty I deserved them. Perhaps if we had sat down and discussed my misdemeanors it would have been better. Discussed my 'feelings', yeah right.

I brought 2 boys up. The eldest I smacked twice and the youngest once. Counseling was not needed. Psychoanalysis was not needed.

So much BS nowadays. The do gooders are ruining society, and making a pretty penny in the process. Far to much hippy drippy tree hugging going on.

Waking-Dreams

As Standman already pointed out… people having been moaning about this particular issue for a long time. Yes, we can all think of examples of unruly children and teenagers but it is very easy to notice these negative examples and then conveniently ignore the cases of children and teenagers behaving themselves.

Stories in the media and anecdotes carry a lot of weight whereas the details of a 15 year old that went about their day harming no one, maybe even helping some elderly person cross the road, doesn’t make for interesting reading. We’ll easily remember a few examples of violence which may only be a mere fraction of how most children/teenagers behave and then cast a wide net saying, ‘oh, it’s worse than ever, I don’t remember things being this bad before’. That’s what statistics are for, not people engaging in confirmation bias and arbitrary inference.

Just because there are lots of parents engaging in permissive parenting does not mean the answer is a wide-scale return to authoritarian mode. Studies do show that authoritative parenting is the best method but I’m sure parents mix and match different styles based on many factors, as well as their own childhood experience with their parents.

kellaman123

source wrote: »

It's all well and good saying we've move on as a society, but you only have to look around to see g how different things are today compared to 20 years ago when smacking wasn't frowned upon.

There's more violent crime and anti social behavior from youths, there's no respect for authority and there is a complete lack of any way to deal with it.

Kids today don't learn lessons from standing in the bold corner for 2 minutes, they don't fear the punishment, and if you don't fear a punishment you don't have anything to hold you back from doing whatever you want.

The phrase "wait till your father gets home" used to stop me in my tracks even though I can only remember him hitting me twice in my whole childhood.

These days if parents try to discipline unruly kids, the kids threaten to report them for child abuse.

Kids have no fear, and without fear there is no regulation of behavior, and they grow up into the kind of teens most people cross the road to avoid.

I have to agree. We have raised a generation with zero respect for authority and the level of antisocial behaviour is shocking. Likewise in my home corporal punishment was more a deterrent and on the rare occasion my brother and I got the belt or the wooden spoon we learned from it. Kids today have no accountability and the threat over parents from the law means that a lot of parents won't take any action

234

source wrote: »

There's more violent crime and anti social behavior from youths, there's no respect for authority and there is a complete lack of any way to deal with it.

Actually, violent crime was at its peak at a time when the young male (the most likely category to the a victim or perpetrator or crime) was raised in a culture where CP was common. However, the decline in crime rates began when this would still have been true.

So there is no real link between CP and violent crime that can easily be asserted.

http://www.crimecouncil.gov.ie/downloads/CrimeReport.pdf

source

234 wrote: »

Actually, violent crime was at its peak at a time when the young male (the most likely category to the a victim or perpetrator or crime) was raised in a culture where CP was common. However, the decline in crime rates began when this would still have been true.

So there is no real link between CP and violent crime that can easily be asserted.

http://www.crimecouncil.gov.ie/downloads/CrimeReport.pdf

I'm a former member of AGS, my comments are based on first hand experience, while some parents call the Gardai when their kids go wild a lot don't, and those that do make the call rarely follow through.

Which means crime stats don't reflect what is actually happening on the street.

kellaman123

source wrote: »

I'm a former member of AGS, my comments are based on first hand experience, while some parents call the Gardai when their kids go wild a lot don't, and those that do make the call rarely follow through.

Which means crime stats don't reflect what is actually happening on the street.

I would also take any results on crime stats with a pinch of salt and they don't prove anything on the efficacy of corporal punishment in the home place.
I would not relish the duties of AGS in dealing with delinquent teens today. I think we have probably all heard stories of gardai bring taunted and goaded by yobs who think they are untouchable as the gardai try and go about their duties.
The sad thing is these kids are untouchable by the gardai and what's more they know it.
When I was growing up we always had respect for the law and we would nearly have been terrified of serving gardai on the beat. Never mind corporal punishment in the home, the days of the gardai giving you a clip around the ear are sorely missed as well!

tomh1736

I would say that there is little difference in Ireland in how men and women perceive corporal punishment, the general feeling would be that we as a nation are very anti smacking. The real interesting thing is how we differ in our view of this issue when compared with other countries.
I lived in Singapore for a number of years. A country with a clearly defined set of laws and harsh penalties for the breaching of these laws. The judicial system in Singapore permits corporal punishment (primarily caning). It may seem harsh but the reality is, there is very little public order offences. There is hardly any graffiti, vandalism and intimidating behaviour in teenagers is relatively unheard of. In a nutshell, the system works and the people know what can happen if they break the law so in the vast majority of cases they choose not to.
I think if we were living in certain countries in the world today, this debate on corporal punishment wouldn't be happening. In Sweden corporal punishment is outlawed so society has evolved to the point that its relatively unheard of. In Asian countries like Singapore it is utilised and I would say accepted that parents smack their children and some use a belt, slipper etc and the society there and indeed the law accepts this.
The whole issue can be seen as cultural therefore. The real problem in Ireland is that corporal punishment has not been outlawed and legally the law allows for reasonable chastisement of a child. Its this definition that is clearly ambiguous. What constitutes "reasonable chastisement"?
Personally I feel that slap on the behind of a small child is perfectly acceptable and when I hear stories of teens getting involved in nuisance behaviour and instilling fear in other citizens especially the elderly I wouldn't see a problem in a parent taking a belt to their behind.

ongarboy

It's a hard one to answer. I and my siblings grew up with it but it remains one of the more unpleasant memories of my childhood as all I can remember is the absolute terror of it but I think that's due to the belittling, esteem damaging and cruel way it was threatened and dished out and often not for just cause. I know many others as proved here say it didn't do them any harm but if the risk is there to cause harm (mental or physical) then it's an unacceptable risk imo.

This doesn't mean kids need to be moly-coddled or not take responsibility for their actions or learn what is right or wrong. I do think there other ways effective discipline can be dished out. Denial of privileges and treats until the lesson is learned in practice, teaching your children why their behaviour is unacceptable in a calm and non confrontational manner and applying such non physical discipline in a consistent and fair manner so the child isn't confused by the discipline. I'm not a parent so it's hard to give a quantifable response so it's just an opinion only.

tomh1736

ongarboy wrote: »

It's a hard one to answer. I and my siblings grew up with it but it remains one of the more unpleasant memories of my childhood as all I can remember is the absolute terror of it but I think that's due to the belittling, esteem damaging and cruel way it was threatened and dished out and often not for just cause. I know many others as proved here say it didn't do them any harm but if the risk is there to cause harm (mental or physical) then it's an unacceptable risk imo.

This doesn't mean kids need to be moly-coddled or not take responsibility for their actions or learn what is right or wrong. I do think there other ways effective discipline can be dished out. Denial of privileges and treats until the lesson is learned in practice, teaching your children why their behaviour is unacceptable in a calm and non confrontational manner and applying such non physical discipline in a consistent and fair manner so the child isn't confused by the discipline. I'm not a parent so it's hard to give a quantifable response so it's just an opinion only.

I can accept that if the punishment was doled out in the manner that you describe then it was a negative experience and somewhat harmful to you and your siblings. In my home it was different. Yes my mother was a big advocate of the bedroom slipper and my father would take the belt to us but it wasn't used that frequently and I can safely say that for all the corporal punishment I received, I received a hell of a lot more love and encouragement from my parents. That was in the seventies and eighties and I don't think I was treated any differently than my peers at that time, I don't think we were all abused and I don't accept that it has had a negative effect on us all as adults.
Some of the youth of today have simply gone beyond the naughty step or taking away the pocket money or the x-box. Maybe if corporal punishment was used as a last resort it might have the desired effect

Sleepy

tomh1736 wrote: »

I can safely say that for all the corporal punishment I received, I received a hell of a lot more love and encouragement from my parents.

While I'm not an advocate of banning corporal punishment, I think that love and encouragement is what the teenage delinquents are missing far more than a good clip across the ear (though, tbh, I would love to see members of AGS given the right to administer such to misbehaving youths).

The problem as I'd see it, is that there's no way any agent of the state can fill such a gap. Unless of course, we go down the route of removing children from unsuitable parents and having them adopted by more suitable ones but just try and get that one past the electorate...

santana75

source wrote: »

I'm a former member of AGS, my comments are based on first hand experience, while some parents call the Gardai when their kids go wild a lot don't, and those that do make the call rarely follow through.

Which means crime stats don't reflect what is actually happening on the street.

Absolutley. I have a relative who is a member of AGS an this is exactly what she says. The stats do not tell the real story of whats going on in the streets.

Sleepy wrote: »

While I'm not an advocate of banning corporal punishment, I think that love and encouragement is what the teenage delinquents are missing far more than a good clip across the ear (though, tbh, I would love to see members of AGS given the right to administer such to misbehaving youths).

The problem as I'd see it, is that there's no way any agent of the state can fill such a gap. Unless of course, we go down the route of removing children from unsuitable parents and having them adopted by more suitable ones but just try and get that one past the electorate...

I'd be inclined to agree that this is the problem at its very core. Its kids coming from homes where they're really not wanted that act out they're anger in the streets.

234

source wrote: »

I'm a former member of AGS, my comments are based on first hand experience, while some parents call the Gardai when their kids go wild a lot don't, and those that do make the call rarely follow through.

Which means crime stats don't reflect what is actually happening on the street.

With all respect to your past career, annecdotal experience is not any kind of basis for argument. Statistics may not be perfect, particularly crime statistics, but personal stories have absolutely no value as rhetorical tools.

donvito99

Mistook thread title as capital punishment.... I thought reserving it for children was a little odd alright.

donvito99

Mistook thread title as capital punishment.... I thought reserving it for children was a little odd alright.

santana75

234 wrote: »

With all respect to your past career, annecdotal experience is not any kind of basis for argument. Statistics may not be perfect, particularly crime statistics, but personal stories have absolutely no value as rhetorical tools.

What? Its all about personal stories. Its about people and their direct experiences on the streets, its not about numbers. Theres a lot of reasons why crimes go unreported. Fear of intimidation, lack of faith in the justice system are just two of the big ones. A lot of the time the Gardai just dont show up and when that happens you lose faith that the law has your back.

source

234 wrote: »

With all respect to your past career, annecdotal experience is not any kind of basis for argument. Statistics may not be perfect, particularly crime statistics, but personal stories have absolutely no value as rhetorical tools.

My experiences inform my opinions, especially on this matter, and in an informal conversation such as this anecdotes play an important role in getting ones point across.

I would agree with you if this were a forum of real change and what we discussed actually went towards changes in policy, but this is not the case.

I could sit here and spout statistics which I know are skewed because of the lack of people willing to go through with prosecutions and all would appear rosy.

Or I could make points based and what I have seen on the streets of our country. Personally I believe the latter would make for the more interesting and informative discussion.

234

I see what you are getting at.

I think that it was a point worth making though.

efb

kellaman123 wrote: »

We have moved on alright and not necessarily for the better'

We are better off. The roses tinted spectacles are just that

kellaman123

source wrote: »

My experiences inform my opinions, especially on this matter, and in an informal conversation such as this anecdotes play an important role in getting ones point across.

I would agree with you if this were a forum of real change and what we discussed actually went towards changes in policy, but this is not the case.

I could sit here and spout statistics which I know are skewed because of the lack of people willing to go through with prosecutions and all would appear rosy.

Or I could make points based and what I have seen on the streets of our country. Personally I believe the latter would make for the more interesting and informative discussion.

I think the real experience of people on the streets like the gardai is far more relevant than any statistics. The way I see it is the AGS do the best job they can but they are in an unenviable position in dealing with delinquent kids due to lack of any real ability to do anything. I'm not sure the parents are always at fault either and that those teens causing public disorder always come from your stereotypical troubled home on rough estates with disinterested parents! A lot of the teens causing the bother are well heeled kids from privileged homes with caring interested parents.

santana75

kellaman123 wrote: »

I'm not sure the parents are always at fault either and that those teens causing public disorder always come from your stereotypical troubled home on rough estates with disinterested parents! A lot of the teens causing the bother are well heeled kids from privileged homes with caring interested parents.

Im not so sure about that. When I was growing up any kid who was trouble out on the streets came from a home that was pretty dysfunctional. And this is something I saw with my own eyes, it wasnt just a case of jumping to conclusions about the kind of home they came from. I knew some genuine scary/crazy people and they did not grow up in a nurturing loving environment, they grew up in the Manson family home.