NCT - Fail Dangerous

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

That's my answers to your questions.
And I know I'm right.
Also most of stuff that was posted here, confirms that those answers are right.

Only things in this thread that state otherwise, are your own statements.

I still think you're wrong. Totally.

Lot's of people agreeing on something doesn't mean they're correct.

pippip

Maybe you should email them back with the simple question of can it be driven once repaired?

dmc17

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Reply recv'd. I've highlighted the important bit.

So if a vehicle achieves a "fail dangerous" at NCT, it's illegal drive it until it's retested and NCT pass it.

Dear HFIII

Thank you for your email

When a vehicle is failed because of a dangerous defect (Defects that constitute a direct and immediate risk to road safety such that the vehicle should not be used on the road under any circumstances) the Vehicle Inspector should proceed as follows:
The customer must be informed:
• Of the existence, extent and nature of the defect.
• That the owner and/or driver of a mechanically propelled vehicle who drives a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while there is a defect affecting the vehicle which he knows of or could have discovered by the exercise of ordinary care and which is such that the vehicle is, when in motion, a danger to the public shall be guilty of an offence.
• That in the opinion of NCTS the vehicle is dangerous.
• That the customer must make arrangements to have the vehicle removed from the test centre.
A sticker stating “Failed Dangerous” should be attached to the vehicle
If the customer states that s/he is going to drive the vehicle:
• Advise that An Garda Síochána will be informed
If customer drives the vehicle off the premises the incident must be reported to An Garda Síochána immediately.

Only the NCTS have the authority to grant a roadworthiness certificate once the vehicle has successfully passed the test.

I trust that this answers your query but please contact me if you require any further information.

Kind regards
Peter



Peter Gaynor
Customer Services Dept.

They're a helpful bunch alright. If only I had known this earlier I wouldn't have made a tit of myself in the local newsagents asking for a €4 quick pick and a roadworthiness certificate for my car.

mgbgt1978

Henry Ford III wrote: »

So:

i/ A car that classed "fail dangerous" can't be driven on the road.
ii/. It must be retested by NCT before being legally allowed back on the road.
iii/. Any residual NCT is effectively invalidated until it's retested.

i/...a car with a dangerous defect cannot be driven. Until the fault is rectified. Whereupon it can be driven on the road prior to having it's retest.
ii/...this is rubbish and you haven't proven otherwise (and you won't).
iii/...more rubbish. Again, you have not give any indication where you got this notion from. The NCT cannot invalidate a cert which they issued 12 (or 24) months previously.

If we were to take your argument to it's conclusion then if my brakes were to fail tomorrow, I fixed them (or had them them fixed), I would then be obliged to get my local NCT centre to confirm that it is OK for me to drive my car again as 'they are the only people who can confirm that my brakes work'.:rolleyes:

Henry Ford III

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

...If we were to take your argument to it's conclusion then if my brakes were to fail tomorrow, I fixed them (or had them them fixed), I would then be obliged to get my local NCT centre to confirm that it is OK for me to drive my car again as 'they are the only people who can confirm that my brakes work'.:rolleyes:

Wouldn't be an NCT issue I'd imagine - unless your car was tested whilst dangerously defective.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I still think you're wrong. Totally.

I would love to be able to prove I'm not wrong (f.e. by quoting some law), but it's impossible to quote a law that doesn't exist.
But I'll try my best.


In relation to your questions.
i/. A car that's classified "fail dangerous" can be legally driven on the road?

Yes, it can be driven on the road, because there is no such thing as "fail dangerous" classification. All NCT do is affix a sticker and inform owner that vehicle is dangerous.
All what NCT legislation says about fail dangerous is this:

Fail dangerous


9. Where upon completion of a test the issuing authority considers that the vehicle tested if driven would be a danger to the public, the issuing authority shall affix to the vehicle a notice to that effect and containing the words “fail dangerous”.

ii/. Such a car doesn't have to be retested by NCT to enable it be reclassified as roadworthy and legally ok to drive on the road again?

It only needs to be retested by NCT in order to obtain new NCT disc/certificate. If old disc is still valid, vehicle fulfills NCT legislation and is OK to be driven on the road, provided it's roadworthy.



iii/. Such a car, despite being described as "fail dangerous" maintains a valid NCT issued up to 2 years beforehand?

Simplest way for you to find out, is to bring dangerously defective vehicle with valid NCT disc for a test, and see that your disc didn't disapper, and it's still valid.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Wouldn't be an NCT issue I'd imagine - unless your car was tested whilst dangerously defective.

So you are suggesting, that for the car to be driven on public road, it must

a) be roadworthy.
b) have valid NCT?
c) not be marked by NCTS centre as "fail dangerous". And this "status" of fail dangerous disappears only when vehicle in retested and found to be roadworthy.

Am I right?

Why isn't your point c) stated in any law?

timmy4u2

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

With all due respect that is absolute balls.
An offence is an offence, whether it is detected is another story.
Driving a dangerous car is always an offense.

Seriously, that was a stupid argument.

You are being too kind. It looks downright stupid as it is.

I am putting it down to a very small touch screen with very big fingers and missing predictable text.
That is my story and I am sticking to it.


What I was typing is that it is a punishable offence when detected by a Garda and brought before the courts.
Point being no matter what an NCT tester says it is up to the Garda to legally detect it a put it to the courts as opposed to Section 53 dangerous driving simpliciter and driving without insurance, where another person can make the allegation to a Garda and unlike a "found on" in a liquor Licensing prosecution whereby it is not punishable unless found on by the Garda.

slimjimmc

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's mere semantics.

Any law is subject to interpretation, as every possibilty can't and won't be covered in the drafting. It's why case law is so important.

So there's no legislative backup, and I think it's not actually necessary.

How would you interpret the intent of the NCT legislation on this?

The law is semantics but your generic email from the NCT is to be considered gospel? LOL.

The law simply does not grant the NCT any authority to do the things you claim. There is nothing to interpret, it is all very clear in legislative print. If it's not prohibited it's not illegal.

Henry Ford III

slimjimmc wrote: »

The law is semantics but your generic email from the NCT is to be considered gospel? LOL.

The law simply does not grant the NCT any authority to do the things you claim. There is nothing to interpret, it is all very clear in legislative print. If it's not prohibited it's not illegal.

Your interpretation is mere semantics. In much the same way as you might consider mine the same.

The notion that minor NCT fails require a visual retest, more major ones require a full retest, but dangerous fails require no retest just doesn't add up however.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

So you are suggesting, that for the car to be driven legally on public road, it must

a) be roadworthy.
b) have valid NCT?
c) not be marked by NCTS centre as "fail dangerous". And this "status" of fail dangerous disappears only when vehicle in retested and found to be roadworthy.

Am I right?

Why isn't your point c) stated in any law?

Tax, insurance, license too.

But yes that's how I'd see it I reckon, and more importantly what I believe the intent of the current faulty legislation is too.

slimjimmc

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Your interpretation is mere semantics. In much the same way as you might consider mine the same.

The notion that minor NCT fails require a visual retest, more major ones require a full retest, but dangerous fails require no retest just doesn't add up however.

Who ever said dangerous fails require no retest?
Of course they do, just like other fails.

Minor NCT fails require to be rectified and a visual retest done in order to obtain a new NCT certificate.
More major ones require to be rectified and a full retest done in order to obtain a new NCT certificate.
Dangerous fails also require to be rectified and a retest in order to obtain a new NCT certificate.

However none of the above mean the car is banned off the road if the car already has a valid NCT in force and any dangerous defects are properly repaired.

wonski

Some people assume that fail dangerous is a death trap that shouldn't be driven at all. As i posted before my car had it once at last NCT because the tester couldn't close the bonnet. I showed him it does work, he was satisfied and let me drive the car away and remove that filthy sticker from the windscreen.
If the fault is repaired, there is no reason not to drive the car if it has valid NCT.
If i failed dangerously for having a thread-less tires, or leaking brake lines why would i tow the car back to the centre when the fault was fixed
You can't be done for driving a death trap if you fixed the car. There is no law stopping you from driving the car once it is roadworthy.

timmy4u2

Could we change this thread to negotiating roundabouts:D

dr.fuzzenstein

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Could we change this thread to negotiating roundabouts:D

Not unless you want it to get really nasty! :eek:

djimi

The real issue here is the fact that if a car takes the test early and fails, the previous NCT cert is still valid. This should not be the case; taking the test early should invalidate the current cert, on the grounds that the car with either pass and have a new valid cert until the next due date, or will fail, in which case it should not be allowed to remain on the road with a valid NCT.

This would sort out the issue of fail dangerous cars being driven on the road, as it would be illegal to drive them on the road before they are repaired as they have been declared dangerous, and it would be illegal to drive them on the road after they have been repaired and until they have been tested as they would not be covered by a valid NCT. Only when they have gone through the test would they then be properly certified as being roadworthy.

This applies to all fails, not just fail dangerous.

timmy4u2

djimi wrote: »

The real issue here is the fact that if a car takes the test early and fails, the previous NCT cert is still valid. This should not be the case; taking the test early should invalidate the current cert, on the grounds that the car with either pass and have a new valid cert until the next due date, or will fail, in which case it should not be allowed to remain on the road with a valid NCT.

This would sort out the issue of fail dangerous cars being driven on the road, as it would be illegal to drive them on the road before they are repaired as they have been declared dangerous, and it would be illegal to drive them on the road after they have been repaired and until they have been tested as they would not be covered by a valid NCT. Only when they have gone through the test would they then be properly certified as being roadworthy.

This applies to all fails, not just fail dangerous.

Under the Road Traffic Act Sec 54 thereof it becomes illegal for any driver driving a car while there is a defect..........that he/she is aware of.........or .....
If it is pointed out to the driver by a competent person or a Garda that such a defect exists then it is illegal for that driver to continue to drive the car in a public place.
A Garda may take possession of the vehicle and he gets it assessed by a competent person, the Garda PSV Inspector and he gives the evidence of the defects to the court, sometimes aided by photos.
The NCT have lost some credibility in their assessment of some Dangerous defects such as a bonnet safety catch being slow to return to its locking position.
Such determinations would never stand up in Court.


It is punishable if detected by a Garda and brought before the courts.

The fact that the car has a current NCT cert does not override the Sec 54 breach.

It cannot be illegal under Section 54 to drive the car on the road if it is not dangerously defective.
Nor is it illegal to drive a car to an NCT test station to undergo a test.

It is illegal to drive without a current NCT test but because of the silly system that exists in Ireland, viz serious delays in getting a test or retest date, that would otherwise impinge on a citizens right to use their car on a public road we have to apply anbIrish solution to an Irish problem where genuing issues arise.
BTW A NCT cert is declared as not being a certificate of roadworthiness.

Now if I put on my right indicator and enter a roundabout on the inside lane can I keep going around that roundabout ad infinitum, or do I have to put on my left indicator and exit at the last available exit?

djimi

timmy4u2 wrote: »

It cannot be illegal under Section 54 to drive the car on the road if it is not dangerously defective.

The point though is how do you determine what is dangerously defective and what isnt, and more importantly whether or not a car has been repaired to a standard that it would no longer be considered to be dangerous? If the NCT have deemed a car to have a dangerous defect then they should be required to carry out an inspection to assess whether or not the repairs have been carried out correctly before declaring the car roadworthy again.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

djimi wrote: »

The point though is how do you determine what is dangerously defective and what isnt, and more importantly whether or not a car has been repaired to a standard that it would no longer be considered to be dangerous? If the NCT have deemed a car to have a dangerous defect then they should be required to carry out an inspection to assess whether or not the repairs have been carried out correctly before declaring the car roadworthy again.

Not necessarily
If the car still has a valid NCT disk and you have been notified of a dangerous fault and rectified it - you are not committing an offense by driving the car.

The offense is being aware that your car is dangerous and not fixing it - it is NOT the fail dangerous sticker by the NCT center.

djimi

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Not necessarily
If the car still has a valid NCT disk and you have been notified of a dangerous fault and rectified it - you are not committing an offense by driving the car.

The offense is being aware that your car is dangerous and not fixing it - it is NOT the fail dangerous sticker by the NCT center.

I guess that post was in addition to my other point that a previous NCT cert really should not remain valid once a new test has been taken, and certainly not where a car has been declared failed dangerous.

Under current law it is not illegal to drive a failed dangerous car once the repair has been carried out and the previous test is still valid, but lets be honest, the current law is utterly moronic!

Cleveland Hot Pocket

djimi wrote: »

I guess that post was in addition to my other point that a previous NCT cert really should not remain valid once a new test has been taken, and certainly not where a car has been declared failed dangerous.

Under current law it is not illegal to drive a failed dangerous car once the repair has been carried out and the previous test is still valid, but lets be honest, the current law is utterly moronic!

I partially agree and partially not/.
It is ridiculous that a car with a valid NCT disc can fail a test and drive home, obviously I agree.

But I do not think it should be up to the NCT to determine what is "fail dangerous" and then they be the sole adjudicator as to when the car goes back on the road.

However if we make all valid discs invalid if a car subsequently fails a test, then effectively it is all a moot point.:)

wonski

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I partially agree and partially not/.
It is ridiculous that a car with a valid NCT disc can fail a test and drive home, obviously I agree.

Failing a test and driving home is like a second amendment in Ireland,
You can't take it away.

It works the same way in many countries, you can't just take the cars away because of the failures - some of them having nothing, or very little to do with safety.
I am all for NCT, but invalidating it by failing the test sounds a bit harsh.
Also the current system rewards people like me who do it early giving me an extra time to fix what needs to be fixed before the expiry.
If the NCT was invalidated, most driver would wait till the very last moment to do the test.

djimi

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

But I do not think it should be up to the NCT to determine what is "fail dangerous" and then they be the sole adjudicator as to when the car goes back on the road.

I suppose my reasoning is that if a car has been determined to be legally unroadworthy, then its not enough to just take the word of the car owner that the defect has been rectified, given that it could have been "repaired" by anyone ranging from a main dealer or reputable indy, to someones mate/uncle/cousin who has a shed and a set of tools from Halfords, and its impossible to determine whether the car is actually roadworthy unless it is inspected by an independent third party, which in this case would be the NCT.

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I partially agree and partially not/.
It is ridiculous that a car with a valid NCT disc can fail a test and drive home, obviously I agree.

But I do not think it should be up to the NCT to determine what is "fail dangerous" and then they be the sole adjudicator as to when the car goes back on the road.

However if we make all valid discs invalid if a car subsequently fails a test, then effectively it is all a moot point.:)

Well, this should obviously only apply to dangerous fails, i.e. brakes hanging off the car or wheels missing, etc...
In that case the car should be declared unsafe, don't drive it, get it fixed, bring it back and we'll declare it safe if it has been fixed properly.
Reason being that it looks like (but this is not certain to me) I could bring the car to auld Seamus down the road who runs a garage out of his garage, there he gives my car a few bashes with his trusty old hammer and tells me "ah sure be grand, drive on now, she'll be the finesht".
If that truly is the case, I despair of this country, because it's the usual "begosh and begorrah, ah be grand" attitude.

djimi

wonski wrote: »

Failing a test and driving home is like a second amendment in Ireland,
You can't take it away.

It works the same way in many countries, you can't just take the cars away because of the failures - some of them having nothing, or very little to do with safety.
I am all for NCT, but invalidating it by failing the test sounds a bit harsh.
Also the current system rewards people like me who do it early giving me an extra time to fix what needs to be fixed before the expiry.
If the NCT was invalidated, most driver would wait till the very last moment to do the test.

Why should a car remain with a valid NCT cert when it has gone through a test and has been deemed to be not worthy of a renewed cert? The NCT is only a roadworthy test at a point in time, and if at that point in time the car is not fit to pass the test then there is no reason for the previous cert to remain valid.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

wonski wrote: »

Failing a test and driving home is like a second amendment in Ireland,
You can't take it away.

It works the same way in many countries, you can't just take the cars away because of the failures - some of them having nothing, or very little to do with safety.
I am all for NCT, but invalidating it by failing the test sounds a bit harsh.
Also the current system rewards people like me who do it early giving me an extra time to fix what needs to be fixed before the expiry.
If the NCT was invalidated, most driver would wait till the very last moment to do the test.

Invalidating the disc is harsh? But the car has been shown to be unroadworthy by failing the test

wonski

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Invalidating the disc is harsh? But the car has been shown to be unroadworthy by failing the test

If it failed on emissions slightly off, or blown parking bulb then yes.
I would be very unhappy to tow the car away at my expense to get it fixed and tow back to the centre.
Let's get real - I am not talking about a deathtrap with no brakes and 4 slick tires.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

wonski wrote: »

If it failed on emissions slightly off, or blown parking bulb then yes.
I would be very unhappy to tow the car away at my expense to get it fixed and tow back to the centre.
Let's get real - I am not talking about a deathtrap with no brakes and 4 slick tires.

Regardless, an NCT is required to be on the road
As the car has not passed an NCT in my opinion the car should not be on the road.

djimi

wonski wrote: »

If it failed on emissions slightly off, or blown parking bulb then yes.
I would be very unhappy to tow the car away at my expense to get it fixed and tow back to the centre.
Let's get real - I am not talking about a deathtrap with no brakes and 4 slick tires.

Im simply referring to the cert itself; a car that has failed the NCT should not have a valid NCT cert. If that means tweaking the regulations to say that cars with "minor" fails can drive for X number of days after a fail in an effort to get the issues sorted then that is what needs to happen, but the bottom line is that once a new test has been carried out the old cert should no longer be valid.

wonski

djimi wrote: »

Im simply referring to the cert itself; a car that has failed the NCT should not have a valid NCT cert. If that means tweaking the regulations to say that cars with "minor" fails can drive for X number of days after a fail in an effort to get the issues sorted then that is what needs to happen, but the bottom line is that once a new test has been carried out the old cert should no longer be valid.

There is no need to tweak regulations as you always have less than a month after a test to fix those faults. And if you do your test late you might have only 1 day to fix.

Dangerous fails, however, are so rare (I guess less than a 0.5%), that there is no need to create a new law to accomodate the issue.