NCT - Fail Dangerous

Henry Ford III

slimjimmc wrote: »

No, but the law is clear. It's only an offence to drive a vehicle that has a dangerous defect, not had.
It would be up to the authorities to prove is dangerous.

A qualified motor mechanic/tyre mechanic is much better qualified than Joe Public and just as qualified as an NCT tester to determine if the repaired car is safe or not.

The issue of certifying the car is safe or not is a separate matter.

Certain minor NCT failures require a simple inspection to pass.

Other more serious ones require a full retest to do so.

But you're suggesting that for the most serious failures where the NCT people have decided the vehicle was dangerous and couldn't be driven, absolutely anyone can decide it's fixed and is no longer dangerous?

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Certain minor NCT failures require a simple inspection to pass.

Other more serious ones require a full retest to do so.

All this is needed to pass the NCT.

But you're suggesting that for the most serious failures where the NCT people have decided the vehicle was dangerous and couldn't be driven, absolutely anyone can decide it's fixed and is no longer dangerous?

To pass the NCT, those defects will also need to be checked.

But as you said - if you present vehicle for NCT, while it still has previous NCT valid for another while, and it fails on minor or less minor thing, so it requires retest, then it needs to be retested to obtain next NCT cert. But old is still valid, so vehicle can be driven in the mean time.
If there is dangerous defect, then even though vehicle still has old NCT valid, it can not be driven, until it's fixed.


Law is simple - once vehicle is taxed, insured, and NCTed, and doesn't have any dangerous defects, it can be driven on public roads.

tin79

I scare myself saying this but I have to agree with Cinio. If you have a valid cert and fix the dangerous fault you have no issue. If you have no cert and fix the fault you can only be done for having no NCT cert.

If you have an NCT cert at any time but your car is dangerously defective you could be done for driving a car that's not roadworthy. NCT and true roadworthiness at any other time: They are two independent things really.

Now if you fail the NCT on a fail dangerous and drive it home anyway you might be adding wilful negligence to the situation.

The NCT is only on one day and a lot can happen in two years.

CiniO

tin79 wrote: »

I scare myself saying this but I have to agree with Cinio.

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

That's incorrect.
There isn't such offence as "driving car with fail dangerous" sticker on it.

Driving car which is dangerous is offence though.

Once you fix the problem, car is not dangerous anymore and there is nothing stopping anyone from driving it.

I don't disagree with you for the sake of it, but that idea is so scary and, well, Oirish, that I simply don't want it to be true.
It's the typical "Ah be grand, begosh and begorrah" approach to everything here.
Car fails NCT because of dangerous brake or suspension defects, let's say hole in the brake line or loose/missing track rod ends.
So you bring the car down to Murphy's Garage, run by a complete waster.
He doesn't fix it properly and says "Ah, she'll be grand, just take her handy!"
So now the car is "certified" safe to drive, just hop on in and giver her a good old blast up the motorway.
And that is legal? If that is right, I have just lost the last scrap of respect for the law in Ireland that I might have had until now.
At the very least I would expect that this car cannot be driven anymore until certified safe by the NCT or a licensed garage.
Otherwise I can take in a car with fail dangerous, give it a few bashes with my hammer and say "off you go now, all fixed!"
Not saying that is what will happen, but there shouldn't even be the possibility for it.

slimjimmc

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Certain minor NCT failures require a simple inspection to pass.

Other more serious ones require a full retest to do so.

But you're suggesting that for the most serious failures where the NCT people have decided the vehicle was dangerous and couldn't be driven, absolutely anyone can decide it's fixed and is no longer dangerous?

Absolutely not.
That is your suggestion not mine. You are clearly failing to read what I wrote or choosing your own slant.
I said qualified people (such as qualified mechanics and tyre specialists) are able to determine what is safe or unsafe, not just NCT staff. They do it all the time, e.g every time they repair defective brakes they assess if their work is safe. Same with tyre specialists, they can tell you if your tyres are dangerous or not.

A car can also be certified safe by a chartered automotive engineer, they do it regularly with insurance repairs.

NCT staff can only determine that a car in its current condition is so unsafe that is cannot be driven from the the NCT centre.

corktina

So the NCT say the car is dangerous because the back axle is falling off and you fix it with some duct tape and decide it's safe and it's OK to drive it then?

No way, if it's been failed and declared dangerous it is not OK to drive it until it's passed a test. I imagine a Judge would take a dim view if you were brought up before him driving a fail dangerous vehicle

mgbgt1978

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

At the very least I would expect that this car cannot be driven anymore until certified safe by the NCT or a licensed garage.

A licensed garage ????
you can buy alcohol while they fix your car now ????


No such thing as a 'Licensed Garage' in this country Fuzz.

tin79

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I don't disagree with you for the sake of it, but that idea is so scary and, well, Oirish, that I simply don't want it to be true.
It's the typical "Ah be grand, begosh and begorrah" approach to everything here.
Car fails NCT because of dangerous brake or suspension defects, let's say hole in the brake line or loose/missing track rod ends.
So you bring the car down to Murphy's Garage, run by a complete waster.
He doesn't fix it properly and says "Ah, she'll be grand, just take her handy!"
So now the car is "certified" safe to drive, just hop on in and giver her a good old blast up the motorway.
And that is legal? If that is right, I have just lost the last scrap of respect for the law in Ireland that I might have had until now.
At the very least I would expect that this car cannot be driven anymore until certified safe by the NCT or a licensed garage.
Otherwise I can take in a car with fail dangerous, give it a few bashes with my hammer and say "off you go now, all fixed!"
Not saying that is what will happen, but there shouldn't even be the possibility for it.

I think you are going to a lot of extremes there really. Quite hyperbolic.

I think the point Cinio is making assumes the fault is genuinely fixed. not just half assed by some chancer. You are , IMO, just reading into it what you want to. Lets just say that if the issue is genuinely fixed then, as I said above, I agree with Cinio.

Criminal negligence by some garage or driver stupidity are different issues.

mgbgt1978

corktina wrote: »

So the NCT say the car is dangerous because the back axle is falling off and you fix it with some duct tape and decide it's safe and it's OK to drive it then?

No way, if it's been failed and declared dangerous it is not OK to drive it until it's passed a test. I imagine a Judge would take a dim view if you were brought up before him driving a fail dangerous vehicle

The law, and the NCT manual, state that 'you cannot drive the vehicle until it is repaired.....nothing more nothing less.
You cannot be charged with driving a dangerously defective vehicle if it is not defective at the time you are stopped.
Thats's the law corkie. Once the fault is fixed the car is allowed on the public highway.
If you can't fix the fault yourself you bring it to a garage. Either way once properly repaired the fault no longer exists and you can drive away.

CiniO

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I don't disagree with you for the sake of it, but that idea is so scary and, well, Oirish, that I simply don't want it to be true.
It's the typical "Ah be grand, begosh and begorrah" approach to everything here.
Car fails NCT because of dangerous brake or suspension defects, let's say hole in the brake line or loose/missing track rod ends.
So you bring the car down to Murphy's Garage, run by a complete waster.
He doesn't fix it properly and says "Ah, she'll be grand, just take her handy!"
So now the car is "certified" safe to drive, just hop on in and giver her a good old blast up the motorway.
And that is legal? If that is right, I have just lost the last scrap of respect for the law in Ireland that I might have had until now.
At the very least I would expect that this car cannot be driven anymore until certified safe by the NCT or a licensed garage.
Otherwise I can take in a car with fail dangerous, give it a few bashes with my hammer and say "off you go now, all fixed!"
Not saying that is what will happen, but there shouldn't even be the possibility for it.

See but all confusion in this thread comes from mixing two things.
NCT and roadworthiness.

NCT is just a legal requirement. Car must obtain NCT certificate every X years, and if it doesn't it can not be legally driven. It won't get a certificate until it fully adheres to NCT requirements.
All seems reasonable.

Other thing is roadworthiness.
Car might become not roadworthy or even dangerous anytime.
You might come this evening to your car and find out your brakes doesn't work. That's why completely irrespective of NCT, you are not allowed to drive dangerously defective car.

Sometimes driver might not be aware his car is dangerously defective, but that doesn't release him from responsibility. It's still illegal for him to drive dangerously defective car.
When such car goes for NCT, and they discover it's dangerously defective, in addition to refusing to issue NCT cert, they will advice owner that car is dangerously defective, and can not be legally driven. They are probably also obliged by internal NCT centre requirements, to call the Garda in case someone drives off a car which they just discovered was dangerously defective.

But it's still issue of roadworthiness and drivers responsibility for it.. They've done their job - refused NCT cert because car didn't fulfill requirements.
Making sure that car is roadworthy is always up to driver. When he fixes dangerous defect, he can drive legally.

In your example, probably responsibility would be shared between driver and mechanic who said "you'll be grand" even though car was still dangerously defective.

But I can't really see a need for requirement for a car to be checked by NCT after dangerous defect is removed.
In the end car could suffer 5 dangerous defects in 2 years between NCTs and they were fixed and no one had to check them afterwards.
Why then would you want a requirement for NCT to check if dangerous defect they discovered would need to be checked by them again before car can be driven on the road?

tin79

corktina wrote: »

So the NCT say the car is dangerous because the back axle is falling off and you fix it with some duct tape and decide it's safe and it's OK to drive it then?

No way, if it's been failed and declared dangerous it is not OK to drive it until it's passed a test. I imagine a Judge would take a dim view if you were brought up before him driving a fail dangerous vehicle

That's not being fixed though is it. A car being roadworthy on any day is not dictated by the opinion of the NCT on some other day. They are different issues. if its properly fixed, genuinely, then I cant see how its not road legal.

slimjimmc

corktina wrote: »

So the NCT say the car is dangerous because the back axle is falling off and you fix it with some duct tape and decide it's safe and it's OK to drive it then?

No way, if it's been failed and declared dangerous it is not OK to drive it until it's passed a test. I imagine a Judge would take a dim view if you were brought up before him driving a fail dangerous vehicle

Are you qualified to make that assessment?
You can only be hauled up for driving a currently dangerous vehicle, not one that was previously dangerous and has been properly repaired. Even then the Garda would have to produce evidence that the current state of the car is dangerous.
The legal obligation is, as always, on you to ensure your car is safe and if you aren't qualified to conduct safe repairs yourself you must employ someone who is.

If you done something as stupid as what you hypothesised above then you fully deserve the full weight of the law.

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

So the NCT say the car is dangerous because the back axle is falling off and you fix it with some duct tape and decide it's safe and it's OK to drive it then?

No it's not, way you fixed it, didn't make it safe. It's still dangerous so you can't drive it.

No way, if it's been failed and declared dangerous it is not OK to drive it until it's passed a test. I imagine a Judge would take a dim view if you were brought up before him driving a fail dangerous vehicle

As I already mentioned - car is OK to drive once it has valid NCT, TAX, INSURANCE, and is roadworthy.
If car which still holds valid NCT cert, is tested and failed dangerous, it doesn't loose it's previous NCT cert. This is still valid.
It can not be driven at that moment, because it's not roadworthy (dangerous). But once issue is resolved, and car is roadworthy again, it can be driven.

You can not be brought up before judge for driving a vehicle which "failed dangerous" it's NCT, because it's not an offence. There is no law prohibiting driving vehicle which failed dangerous.

dr.fuzzenstein

tin79 wrote: »

I think you are going to a lot of extremes there really. Quite hyperbolic.

I think the point Cinio is making assumes the fault is genuinely fixed. not just half assed by some chancer. You are , IMO, just reading into it what you want to. Lets just say that if the issue is genuinely fixed then, as I said above, I agree with Cinio.

Criminal negligence by some garage or driver stupidity are different issues.

What bothers me is the half-arsed legislation (as usual).
It goes as far as "NCT says it's dangerous", so you must tow the car away then.
Step 2, fairydust
Step 3, you drive into the NCT center with your fully fixed car, with a big smile on your face.
Who fixed the car? Can any Joe Soap fix it? Who can say it's safe to drive now? There is no mention of that, so I might as well ask Mrs Murphy next door, she's 95 and blind. In the absence of any guidelines or legislation whatso-bloody-ever, that is a viable option.

CiniO

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What bothers me is the half-arsed legislation (as usual).
It goes as far as "NCT says it's dangerous", so you must tow the car away then.
Step 2, fairydust
Step 3, you drive into the NCT center with your fully fixed car, with a big smile on your face.
Who fixed the car? Can any Joe Soap fix it? Who can say it's safe to drive now? There is no mention of that, so I might as well ask Mrs Murphy next door, she's 95 and blind. In the absence of any guidelines or legislation whatso-bloody-ever, that is a viable option.

What if your car becomes dangerously defective in the mean time between NCTs.
Say your car has no brakes, and you know it's dangerous to be driven so you get it towed to the garage.
Machanic fixes it, and tells you it's OK now.
Where is the place for inspection of NCT people here?
Where is the difference to OP's question except that you discovered it was dangerous not NCT crowd?

How does it work elsewhere?
If you bring dangerously defective car for TÜV, what happens then?

Henry Ford III

slimjimmc wrote: »

Absolutely not.
That is your suggestion not mine. You are clearly failing to read what I wrote or choosing your own slant.
I said qualified people (such as qualified mechanics and tyre specialists) are able to determine what is safe or unsafe, not just NCT staff. They do it all the time, e.g every time they repair defective brakes they assess if their work is safe. Same with tyre specialists, they can tell you if your tyres are dangerous or not.

A car can also be certified safe by a chartered automotive engineer, they do it regularly with insurance repairs.

NCT staff can only determine that a car in its current condition is so unsafe that is cannot be driven from the the NCT centre.

This is the nub of the issue.

A car is dangerous (NCT say so) but there's according to CiniO anyone can say it's fixed and good to go. I'd be more than confident that should such a scenario come in front of a judge the intent of the legislation would be enforced, regardless of potential weaknesses in it's drafting.

Theres no mention anywhere of a qualífied mechanic, and no mechanism for them to certify 'that the fault has been fixed, and that the car is now safe again.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

What if your car becomes dangerously defective in the mean time between NCTs.
Say your car has no brakes, and you know it's dangerous to be driven so you get it towed to the garage.
Machanic fixes it, and tells you it's OK now.
Where is the place for inspection of NCT people here?
Where is the difference to OP's question except that you discovered it was dangerous not NCT crowd?

Then it's ok. The NCT isn't a perfect system.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

This is the nub of the issue.

A car is dangerous (NCT say so) but there's according to CiniO anyone can say it's fixed and good to go

I never said that.
Car is good to go, once it's fixed - not when someone decides it's good to go.

If you have a crash in dangerously defective vehicle, you will suffer consequences, no matter if NCT said it was dangerous or not, and no matter if mechanic said it was safe or not.
If you have a crash in roadworthy vehicle, you can't be taken responsible for driving dangerous vehicle, because you didn't do so.
You also can't be responsible for driving vehicle "marked by NCT as failed dangerous" as it's not illegal to drive a vehicle like that.

. I'd be more than confident that should such a scenario come in front of a judge the intent of the legislation would be enforced, regardless of potential weaknesses in it's drafting.

How could issue of driving roadworthy vehicle (which was dangerous but fixed) end up in front of the judge?
I compeltely can't see any reason to case like that ending in front of the judge.

Theres no mention anywhere of a qualífied mechanic, and no mechanism for them to certify 'that the fault has been fixed, and that the car is now safe again.

It's up to driver to make sure car he is driving is safe and roadworthy.
This obligation lies on driver every time he drives any vehicle.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

I never said that.
Car is good to go, once it's fixed - not when someone decides it's good to go.

If you have a crash in dangerously defective vehicle, you will suffer consequences, no matter if NCT said it was dangerous or not, and no matter if mechanic said it was safe or not.
If you have a crash in roadworthy vehicle, you can't be taken responsible for driving dangerous vehicle, because you didn't do so.
You also can't be responsible for driving vehicle "marked by NCT as failed dangerous" as it's not illegal to drive a vehicle like that.


How could issue of driving roadworthy vehicle (which was dangerous but fixed) end up in front of the judge?
I compeltely can't see any reason to case like that ending in front of the judge.



It's up to driver to make sure car he is driving is safe and roadworthy.
This obligation lies on driver every time he drives any vehicle.

You're contradicting yourself, so I think I'll leave you to that.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Then it's ok. The NCT isn't a perfect system.

So it's OK to trust a mechanic that dangerous defect which you discovered was fixed.
But it's not OK to trust him, when the same dangerous defect was discovered by NCT crowd.

Where's the logic here?

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself, so I think I'll leave you to that.

I can't see where am I contradicting myself.
Car must be roadworthy, and any dangerous defects must be fixed before it's driven.
Person responsible to make sure they were fixed is driver.

No contradiction here.

Boskowski

CiniO wrote: »

See but all confusion in this thread comes from mixing two things.
NCT and roadworthiness.

NCT is just a legal requirement. Car must obtain NCT certificate every X years, and if it doesn't it can not be legally driven. It won't get a certificate until it fully adheres to NCT requirements.
All seems reasonable.

Other thing is roadworthiness.
Car might become not roadworthy or even dangerous anytime.
You might come this evening to your car and find out your brakes doesn't work. That's why completely irrespective of NCT, you are not allowed to drive dangerously defective car.

Sometimes driver might not be aware his car is dangerously defective, but that doesn't release him from responsibility. It's still illegal for him to drive dangerously defective car.
When such car goes for NCT, and they discover it's dangerously defective, in addition to refusing to issue NCT cert, they will advice owner that car is dangerously defective, and can not be legally driven. They are probably also obliged by internal NCT centre requirements, to call the Garda in case someone drives off a car which they just discovered was dangerously defective.

But it's still issue of roadworthiness and drivers responsibility for it.. They've done their job - refused NCT cert because car didn't fulfill requirements.
Making sure that car is roadworthy is always up to driver. When he fixes dangerous defect, he can drive legally.

In your example, probably responsibility would be shared between driver and mechanic who said "you'll be grand" even though car was still dangerously defective.

But I can't really see a need for requirement for a car to be checked by NCT after dangerous defect is removed.
In the end car could suffer 5 dangerous defects in 2 years between NCTs and they were fixed and no one had to check them afterwards.
Why then would you want a requirement for NCT to check if dangerous defect they discovered would need to be checked by them again before car can be driven on the road?

I'm actually with you all the way. Very well laid out.
Basically you're asking whats the difference between fixing a dangerous defect between NCTs and fixing one as the outcome of an NCT.
I think there is a difference and its simply that the dangerous defect has now come to the attention of the NCTS. The question is will this automatically revoke any NCT certification - existing as well as future?
We know they won't issue a new disc obviously, but does that mean a not yet expired current NCT disc is still intact or not or what?
People assume it is still intact, but wouldn't that be a contradiction? How could the NCT deny a cert on those grounds and at the same time not invalidate the existing cert to ensure this car is not driven until inspected again? They are technically (legally?) - by not invalidating the old disc - still certifying the car as fit between now and the expiration of the current disc. Even though they just found that not to be the case.
What if the car doesn't get repaired properly but is deemed fixed and causes an accident?

CiniO

Boskowski wrote: »

I'm actually with you all the way. Very well laid out.
Basically you're asking whats the difference between fixing a dangerous defect between NCTs and fixing one as the outcome of an NCT.
I think there is a difference and its simply that the dangerous defect has now come to the attention of the NCTS. The question is will this automatically revoke any NCT certification - existing as well as future?
We know they won't issue a new disc obviously, but does that mean a not yet expired current NCT disc is still intact or not or what?
People assume it is still intact, but wouldn't that be a contradiction? How could the NCT deny a cert on those grounds and at the same time not invalidate the existing cert to ensure this car is not driven until inspected again? They are technically (legally?) - by not invalidating the old disc - still certifying the car as fit between now and the expiration of the current disc. Even though they just found that not to be the case.

NCT cert and disc are not revoked in any case.
If in 2012 you obtained NCT disc valid till May 2014, then even if you present your car for NCT now, and fail dangerously, your NCT cert and disc are still valid until May 2014.
That's the Irish NCT law.
Looks like goal of this law is to make sure car get's checked every 2 years/1 year.
NCT doesn't confirm roadworthiness by any means, as car might be not roadworthy 5 minutes after it passed a test.

What if the car doesn't get repaired properly but is deemed fixed and causes an accident?

Then driver is at serious trouble.

Boskowski

CiniO wrote: »

Then driver is at serious trouble.

But has technically still NCT. That's the bit that seems a contradiction to me.

Edit: Of course it doesn't make a difference. The driver isn't off the hook. Still fully culpable for driving a dangerous vehicle.

CiniO

Boskowski wrote: »

But has technically still NCT. That's the bit that seems a contradiction to me.

Those are two completely separate offences.

1. Driving without valid NCT.

2. Driving dangerously defective car.

While in this case driver is not committing 1st offence, he is committing the 2nd one.

In general those two has nothing to do with each other.
Car might be NCTed and be dangerous, or it might not be NCTed and be fully roadworthy.
Just completely two separate things.

Only what links them, is fact that car must be roadworthy at the time of the test, to obtain the disc for next year/2years.

Cosmo K

Just my 2 cents as an nct guy.....


99% of all cars that were failed dangerous are later driven away by the customer. I had two such cases this week, one was a 02 A4, front flexi pipe bulging and leaking under pressure, he got a bit thick with me, and then just drove off. Member of the travelling....blabla...you know the drill, no point arguing with him.

The other one was a Toyota SUV, again, defective brakes. Driving the car into the center I noticed that was no, or very little pressure, only one brake line working, probably a problem with the master cylinder. Same story, told the customer, listen: this car not should not be driven....yada, yada, yada....put the sticker in the windscreen, handed out the leaflet....customer drives off 5 min later.

But what can you do? Call the gardai everytime a car is driven away? Keep the keys, impound the car?

mgbgt1978

Well legally all you can do is phone the Guards.

slimjimmc

Boskowski wrote: »

I'm actually with you all the way. Very well laid out.
Basically you're asking whats the difference between fixing a dangerous defect between NCTs and fixing one as the outcome of an NCT.
I think there is a difference and its simply that the dangerous defect has now come to the attention of the NCTS. The question is will this automatically revoke any NCT certification - existing as well as future?
We know they won't issue a new disc obviously, but does that mean a not yet expired current NCT disc is still intact or not or what?
People assume it is still intact, but wouldn't that be a contradiction? How could the NCT deny a cert on those grounds and at the same time not invalidate the existing cert to ensure this car is not driven until inspected again? They are technically (legally?) - by not invalidating the old disc - still certifying the car as fit between now and the expiration of the current disc. Even though they just found that not to be the case.

The NCT can revoke a certificate within 48 hrs of of issue at their discretion, or they can revoke any time if it should not have been issued in the first place.

They can't just revoke a valid cert simply because the car is currently unsafe when tested for the new cert. Therefore the old cert is still valid and in force until its expiry date.

Boskowski wrote: »

What if the car doesn't get repaired properly but is deemed fixed and causes an accident?

The owner is ultimately responsible for ensuring the car is kept in safe condition. The owner may try a civil suit to claim compensation for negligence from whoever repaired it.

mb1725

The OP hasn't been back since, hope he didn't have an accident on the way home! :rolleyes: