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changing from ufh to Rads

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13

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    #62
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    Underfloor heating in a home, I do not subscribe to it. Everybody I know with it, and that would be only ten or twelve people, have nothing good to say about it.
    The Solos are about €380 each new. I bought four of them, slightly used, for less than €400.
    I fitted them myself. You have a stove in one of the fireplaces. Go to solid fuel and you will recoup what you have spent in one year.
    I have excellent heating for about 12 hrs every day and my total fuel costs will be less than €1000 for the winter.
    I have also saved 28.8% on my electricity since I installed the Solos by not needing to use electric heaters to boost the heat.
    Interesting post!
    Solid fuel with solo rads.

    I suppose if the OP was to take this advice, the whole 2,500sqft house will have to be kango'd to run 3/4" pipes to all these rads, a whole new control system, wiring to every rad, etc.

    OP, go back to basics, get somebody with proper experience of UFH & take it from there. Leaving UFH at full demand 24hours is wasteful as is heating dhw 24hours.

    I would also take Mick's advice & consider an air leakage test. You will be surprised what it will show up & many of the fixes can be DIY with simple inexpensive tubes of silicone but experts such as Mick in that field advise better than me.

    For now, I would reduce the usage of times on. You may not require Heatmiser's control but an alternative cheaper similar type stat. There are many. You just need one that you can choose banks of times with a setting setting or at very least a set back mode.

    From that, compare the comfort of the home with the reduced oil usage & take it from there.


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    #63
    timmy4u2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Interesting post!
    Solid fuel with solo rads.

    I suppose if the OP was to take this advice, the whole 2,500sqft house will have to be kango'd to run 3/4" pipes to all these rads, a whole new control system, wiring to every rad, etc.

    OP, go back to basics, get somebody with proper experience of UFH & take it from there. Leaving UFH at full demand 24hours is wasteful as is heating dhw 24hours.

    I would also take Mick's advice & consider an air leakage test. You will be surprised what it will show up & many of the fixes can be DIY with simple inexpensive tubes of silicone but experts such as Mick in that field advise better than me.

    For now, I would reduce the usage of times on. You may not require Heatmiser's control but an alternative cheaper similar type stat. There are many. You just need one that you can choose banks of times with a setting setting or at very least a set back mode.

    From that, compare the comfort of the home with the reduced oil usage & take it from there.
    Do not be so surprised Shane, we had a big discussion on this lastvOctober, or so, before I fitted them.
    And of course solid fuel. They are designed to work well with solid fuel.
    When my boiler goes below 50 the odd rad that I have left are basically useless but the Solo rads keep putting out the heat down to 40.
    A great system, near instant control on start up.
    I am not a plumber and I do not pretend to be one but I fitted all my rads myself and eliminated the air with your help.
    Easy matter to run .75 pipes behind a hollow skirting. No skill required in that and no need to Kangoo anything and with their output you will not need as many rads.
    No need for rewiring. Again the wire can be run behind a skirting, and before you say it,not the one carrying the pipe.
    Again my view is based on my own great experience of the Solos and my friends terrible experiences of ufh.


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    #64
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    A system with nothing but Solos will short cycle the oil boiler 10 times worse than existing & oil usage will increase, not decrease.
    Plus it will be far cheaper adapt or upgrade the controls rather than re-pipe the whole house.
    Solid fuel & solos will decrease in performance far quicker than you think, but that's an unrelated discussion.


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    #65
    Ah Here
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Ah Here


    thanks shane and Timmy,

    I think I'll be getting new stats, elimating draughts etc and get a proper boiler service. I might go for an air tightness test when i can.

    2 final things: Ive attached a photo of the pump etc on the manifold - you might be able to see any obvious problem with it. the bottom valve reads 30 degrees, the top 40. I don't know if this helps.

    Also I notice that during the summer, when I had all the stats down to zero, the pump would come on from time to time. Is this strange? is turning all the stats down the only way to turn the system off?

    7v6u.jpg


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    #66
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    Do not be so surprised Shane, we had a big discussion on this lastvOctober, or so, before I fitted them.

    I can't remember discussions I had yesterday, never mind last October :eek:
    Must be an age thing...


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    #67
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Ah Here wrote: »
    .................
    Also I notice that during the summer, when I had all the stats down to zero, the pump would come on from time to time..................

    This is an important feature - if your pump doesn't run all summer* it may seize up and won't work when you turn it all back on again.
    Running every so often stops this happening



    ( * summer falls on a Thursday this year i think )


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    #68
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    You've a delta T of approx 9C (43C - 34C). That's fine but could be improved with slight adjustment by reducing the flow rates of the guilty loops. Not for the DIY'er though unless you are shown as each loop will need to be tested individually. Then once all are giving the required delta T on their own, when running as an open manifold, the manifold will give the required.

    Pump speed will be at lowest setting & if you cannot achieve the require on that speed, it is then increased to achieve. This is where modulating pumps come into their own & would be of good benefit to you if within budget.

    Try edit your posted picture size to smaller as it will be a pain to open this page of the thread.


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    #69
    timmy4u2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    shane0007 wrote: »
    I can't remember discussions I had yesterday, never mind last October :eek:
    Must be an age thing...

    I would expect so:)


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    #70
    Ah Here
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Ah Here


    thanks again shane - you are a great help.

    When I get it serviced I'll get them to tweak them. First step for me will be a hw stat. I have a stat for the utility room and the old timer was wired in next to it - hopefully it should be easy enough to wire a new hw timer/stat. I'm thinking Heatmiser PRT/HW-N - 12v Network Programmable Thermostat inc Hotwater??


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    #71
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    What type of cables have you going to your existing stats? 12v network requires Cat5e (screened if possible).
    Depending on what's there, will determine what stats you will choose. Only one HW stat required. Rest will be PRT standard.

    Again, before rushing out & purchasing, get a survey done of your system.


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    #72
    timmy4u2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    shane0007 wrote: »
    A system with nothing but Solos will short cycle the oil boiler 10 times worse than existing & oil usage will increase, not decrease.
    Plus it will be far cheaper adapt or upgrade the controls rather than re-pipe the whole house.
    Solid fuel & solos will decrease in performance far quicker than you think, but that's an unrelated discussion.
    Not according to Solo and the Solos will not need a high output boiler.

    http://www.solorad.ie/solo-radiators-hydronic-product-range/solo-benefits/
    As regards decreasing of performance I would have to say that my solos keep giving out heat for most of the night, in fact they keep going down to 26.
    I cannot believe the heat that I am getting coupled with the savings I have achieved.

    Of course fiddling around with the controls would be cheaper but it will still not get over the fact that you have to heat a large lump of concrete and floor coverings before you get any heat


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    #73
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    Not according to Solo and the Solos will not need a high output boiler.

    http://www.solorad.ie/solo-radiators-hydronic-product-range/solo-benefits/
    As regards decreasing of performance I would have to say that my solos keep giving out heat for most of the night, in fact they keep going down to 26.
    I cannot believe the heat that I am getting coupled with the savings I have achieved.

    Of course fiddling around with the controls would be cheaper but it will still not get over the fact that you have to heat a large lump of concrete and floor coverings before you get any heat
    Oh, so on top of replacing all rads, re-piping the whole house, re-doing all the floors & coverings, if the OP built his own house with his own blood & tears, I would doubt very much he will go through that.

    There is nothing wrong with UFH. My wife gave me hell in convincing her not to go with rads when we were building our house. When I ask her now, she says it was definitely the right decision.

    People who are happy with their systems rarely go around bragging about them. You only hear about the systems people are unhappy with!

    Granted there is more to get wrong with UFH, but that is not the fault of the system, that is the fault of the installer. Generally, it can be greatly improved by better controls, like any system can be. Even traditional radiator systems fuel consumptions are greatly reduced by controls. It really is not rocket science but many seem to over complicate systems & the homeowner usually ends up paying.


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    #74
    timmy4u2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Oh, so on top of replacing all rads, re-piping the whole house, re-doing all the floors & coverings, if the OP built his own house with his own blood & tears, I would doubt very much he will go through that.

    There is nothing wrong with UFH. My wife gave me hell in convincing her not to go with rads when we were building our house. When I ask her now, she says it was definitely the right decision.

    People who are happy with their systems rarely go around bragging about them. You only hear about the systems people are unhappy with!

    Granted there is more to get wrong with UFH, but that is not the fault of the system, that is the fault of the installer. Generally, it can be greatly improved by better controls, like any system can be. Even traditional radiator systems fuel consumptions are greatly reduced by controls. It really is not rocket science but many seem to over complicate systems & the homeowner usually ends up paying.
    Very obviously he will try the simpler solutions. That is what I would do, but with failure comes the realisation of the need to change, if it comes to that.

    UFH is fine for you. You know what you are doing and you can rectify it if it goes wrong. Many installations are wrong from the start.

    Still does not get over the fact that you have to heat a large lump of concrete first, just like the old storage heaters in my old primary school.
    I guess we have different views and different experiences.


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    #75
    Cedrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    http://www.solorad.ie/solo-radiators-hydronic-product-range/solo-benefits/

    This system reminds me of the microbore systems that were out in the 70's - 80's. All the rads piped radially from a central manifold and a high head pump that needed to be replaced evey five years. They were touted as the perfect retrofit for houses that never had central heating, in fairness, you didn't need to rip your house apart to install it, but they were far from perfect.

    I'd say the ideal market for this system is the homeowners who were stuck with electric heating by tightfisted developers, I wouldn't rip out a proper distribution system for it though.


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    #76
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    Still does not get over the fact that you have to heat a large lump of concrete first

    That is the advantage, not the disadvantage. Large lump of concrete equals thermal mass. Thermal mass is a thermal store, just like the ground outside is for the sun & hence the development of geothermal systems.

    Look at it like this, an "average" 2,500sqft would have a radiator demand of circa 25kw. The same house heated by UFH would have a demand of circa 12.5kw. Both would require less with better insulation, but I did say average.

    An oil fed UFH system is controlled by room by room thermostats, so as a room stat is satisfied, the demand is reduced accordingly. That type of control is never installed on a rad system & TRV's do not count for a number of reasons (no interlock & incorrect location to actually work).
    The ultimate system with oil is in conjunction with a buffer/thermal store as this will match the boiler output to the system demand very accurately.


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    #77
    timmy4u2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    Cedrus wrote: »
    This system reminds me of the microbore systems that were out in the 70's - 80's. All the rads piped radially from a central manifold and a high head pump that needed to be replaced evey five years. They were touted as the perfect retrofit for houses that never had central heating, in fairness, you didn't need to rip your house apart to install it, but they were far from perfect.

    I'd say the ideal market for this system is the homeowners who were stuck with electric heating by tightfisted developers, I wouldn't rip out a proper distribution system for it though.
    No, no, no it does not have any association with that terrible micro bore system.
    It can be a direct replacement for ordinary rads.
    It requires .75" flow and return with half inch tails.as any decent system should have.

    My plumbing system was an excellent system and my rads were hi output aluminium rads but the Solo is just far superior at getting the heat out at least cost

    Obviously the suggestion to the OP was for if he was going to do away with the UFH.
    He would not have any ripping out to do because his system is already buried under the floor


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    #78
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Cedrus wrote: »
    This system reminds me of the microbore systems that were out in the 70's - 80's. All the rads piped radially from a central manifold and a high head pump that needed to be replaced evey five years. They were touted as the perfect retrofit for houses that never had central heating, in fairness, you didn't need to rip your house apart to install it, but they were far from perfect.

    I'd say the ideal market for this system is the homeowners who were stuck with electric heating by tightfisted developers, I wouldn't rip out a proper distribution system for it though.

    Completely agree. Solo's are good for a particular purpose but I would never install a complete system with them & never on solid fuel.
    An odd one in areas difficult to heat such as conservatories, poorly insulated rooms, etc.
    Pipework to them & pump head is key.


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    #79
    timmy4u2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Completely agree. Solo's are good for a particular purpose but I would never install a complete system with them & never on solid fuel.
    An odd one in areas difficult to heat such as conservatories, poorly insulated rooms, etc.
    Pipework to them & pump head is key.
    I have to totally disagree with you on the solid fuel issue.
    They work superb on solid fuel and as the fire goes down they keep putting out the heat while the ordinary rads die.


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    #80
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    I have to totally disagree with you on the solid fuel issue.
    They work superb on solid fuel and as the fire goes down they keep putting out the heat while the ordinary rads die.

    What size do you think the passage ways of the solo's heat exchanger is?
    I have yet to see a solid fuel system without sludge. It will overheat, it will pitch, it will re-oxygenate. There will be electrolysis within the system.
    So, what is working fine now because it is new, will with time begin to loose its performance. You will then wonder why the system is not as good as it used to be. The rads won't be giving off as much heat as they used to.

    Due to your memory being better then mine, :D, you will remember this thread & my post, & think quietly to yourself "that fcuker was right" ;)
    So, regularly check the inhibitor levels & top up as required with a same brand of good quality and perhaps you may then think "that fcuker was wrong, I told him so":eek:


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    #81
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Now hopefully back to the OP's topic...


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    #82
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    Warning on the language, mis-spelling it won't make it less of an offence, infraction looming..ok


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    #83
    timmy4u2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    shane0007 wrote: »
    What size do you think the passage ways of the solo's heat exchanger is?
    I have yet to see a solid fuel system without sludge. It will overheat, it will pitch, it will re-oxygenate. There will be electrolysis within the system.
    So, what is working fine now because it is new, will with time begin to loose its performance. You will then wonder why the system is not as good as it used to be. The rads won't be giving off as much heat as they used to.

    Due to your memory being better then mine, :D, you will remember this thread & my post, & think quietly to yourself "that fcuker was right" ;)
    So, regularly check the inhibitor levels & top up as required with a same brand of good quality and perhaps you may then think "that fcuker was wrong, I told him so":eek:

    All systems will subject themselves to sludge though my acorn pipes were near spotless after 26 years and my very small bore low water content alurad aluminium rads never sludged up to any degree.
    Believe it or not the old system never had an inhibitor. But I flush every year.
    From looking at the Solos their water flow through the top system is much wider than I have seen in any radiator.
    The pipes are at least a quarter inch.
    If it pitches, and it does not I have an oxyvent tank sitting in the garage.
    But I will print out your post and sticknit to the inside of the Solo Rad:D
    So now back


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    #84
    Ah Here
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Ah Here


    Does ufh system require flushing? I have my own well and was just wondering.


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    #85
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,730 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Ah Here wrote: »
    Does ufh system require flushing? I have my own well and was just wondering.

    If it wasn't initially treated from day one then eventually it probably will


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    #86
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Ah Here wrote: »
    Does ufh system require flushing? I have my own well and was just wondering.

    As you have no rads on your system, the only ferrous metal will be in the primary heat exchanger of your boiler. The rest is brass, copper & plastic therefore it will be highly unlikely you will get a sludge build up.
    I would still inhibit the system with something like Fernox F1 to ensure there is no electrolysis within the system.


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    #87
    Ah Here
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Ah Here


    Slight change of direction:

    I had a chat today with a neighbour who suggested replacing my oil boiler with a wood pellet one. As I don't know much about them, what is the average cost of one, and how much would a 2500ft house spend a year on fuel?


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    #88
    Ah Here
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Ah Here


    Slight change of direction:

    I had a chat today with a neighbour who suggested replacing my oil boiler with a wood pellet one. As I don't know much about them, what is the average cost of one, and how much would a 2500ft house spend a year on fuel?


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    #89
    timmy4u2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭timmy4u2


    Ah Here wrote: »
    Slight change of direction:

    I had a chat today with a neighbour who suggested replacing my oil boiler with a wood pellet one. As I don't know much about them, what is the average cost of one, and how much would a 2500ft house spend a year on fuel?
    As I said I am not a plumber but I think I have some common sense.
    I would think you are going from the fryingpan into the fire.
    If I know of ten or twelve friends with UFH that does notcwork I know 20 who would love to throw out their pellet system.
    I was all set to install such a system. My friend went ahead first. He installed what was billed as a Rolls Royce of pellet burners. He had a large hopper installed inside one of his garages beside the burner. All automated. Spent a fortune on it. It is useless.


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    #90
    Cedrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    Ah Here wrote: »
    Slight change of direction:

    I had a chat today with a neighbour who suggested replacing my oil boiler with a wood pellet one. As I don't know much about them, what is the average cost of one, and how much would a 2500ft house spend a year on fuel?

    From an environmental ethics point of view, this is the way to go, renewable resource, carbon neutral etc.

    Realistically today in Ireland, the pellet boilers are relatively expensive, there is an experience and knowledge defecit of people in Ireland who can set them up correctly and pellet quality is very variable.

    Oil is not the fuel of the future but unfortunately wood pellets are not yet the fuel of the present.

    I think you have had some very good advice above (and some erratic tosh as well), concentrate on the thermal losses and the controls and you will see a very quick improvement. Don't forget that spring is coming and your consumption will fall, but so will your topical savings.


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    #91
    Cedrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    timmy4u2 wrote: »
    I would think you are going from the fryingpan into the fire.

    Timmy, I finally agree with you! (but maybe not for the same reasons)


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