changing from ufh to Rads

Ah Here

Hi everyone.

Im on the verge of tears with my underfloor heating system. I installed it 5 years ago in my 2500ft dormer. I rarely have it on upstairs, and to heat the downstairs (1700ft) is costing the bones of €2500 a year in oil. We dont have it on too high- around 18 degrees average - and the boiler is serviced regularly.

I feel that that is way to high an annual heating bill. I have the house well insulated with triple glazed windows. How much would it cost, and how difficult would it be, to install rads downstairs instead of the ufh?

Thanks in advance!

Dtp1979

Ah Here wrote: »

Hi everyone.

Im on the verge of tears with my underfloor heating system. I installed it 5 years ago in my 2500ft dormer. I rarely have it on upstairs, and to heat the downstairs (1700ft) is costing the bones of €2500 a year in oil. We dont have it on too high- around 18 degrees average - and the boiler is serviced regularly.

I feel that that is way to high an annual heating bill. I have the house well insulated with triple glazed windows. How much would it cost, and how difficult would it be, to install rads downstairs instead of the ufh?

Thanks in advance!

I'd say your money would be better spent on trying to rectify the UFH problem.
Did you get anybody out to look at the system you currently have?

shane0007

It is possible but there maybe correctable errors with your existing setup. This is very common & could possibly be a far cheaper option than changing to rads.

Ah Here

We've fixed some issues already- the installation was poor and the plumber had put actuators on the wrong zones etc. What else should i be looking out for? My plumber also took out the timer clock we had so now we have 24hr hot water. Could this also be an issue?

Thanks for your help!

shane0007

Yes that is a big issue.
I bet you have a lot more issues with the UFH side also.any I come across are set up terribly.

Ah Here

shane0007 wrote: »

Yes that is a big issue.
I bet you have a lot more issues with the UFH side also.any I come across are set up terribly.

Thanks Shane. I dunno what else to look out for. Do you know of anyone good in kerry who would be able to have a look at it?

shane0007

Sorry no, not in Kerry but somebody else here may do.
There is really too many checks & overall visuals to do that could not be done on a forum.

Ah Here

shane0007 wrote: »

Sorry no, not in Kerry but somebody else here may do.
There is really too many checks & overall visuals to do that could not be done on a forum.

Ok thanks, hopefully someone else will come along

Dtp1979

How many Kerry men does it take to fix a UFH system?
Sorry, couldn't resist

Dtp1979

On a serious note though, I'd put a timer and thermostat on the hot water side to start

Cedrus

Ah Here wrote: »

We've fixed some issues already- the installation was poor and the plumber had put actuators on the wrong zones etc. What else should i be looking out for? My plumber also took out the timer clock we had so now we have 24hr hot water. Could this also be an issue?

Thanks for your help!

I'd start by taking out your plumber(s).
I can't comment on the zoning without knowing more detail, 24 hour hot water availability is fantastic (if you need it) but 24 hour heating of water is a disaster.

How are your zones set up, are there room thermostats and timers for each zone.

2500ft is a beefy enough house, not huge, but bigger than most of us grew up in and it will take more to heat. You say you don't have it on upstairs, but how are the floors separated, if you don't have sufficient insulation/separation then you are heating upstairs regardless.

Ah Here

There is both insulation between the ceiling joists and below the easyscreed upstairs so it is well insulated.

The downstairs is seperated into 8 zones each controlled by a stat which is normally set at 18 degrees. Some of the zones are much larger than others. When the system was first installed there was a timer clock on it one seperated into downstairs, upstairs and hot water but this was taken out as according th the rep from pulsar the system wasnt suitable for a timer. This leaves me with no was to control the hot water and also no way to time the heating, but as i wass told that ufh works best and most efficientl when on constant instead of turning it off and on whenever its needed im ok with that.

Its an oil condensing boiler we have. The manifold is in the centre of the house, and one other thing the rep did was he disconnected a temp cut off stat on the mainifold as it was switching the system off once it got to a certain temp.

shane0007

These are some questions you should be asking.
Is the UFH on constant?
Is it interlocked with the boiler so that when the last loop is satisfied it switches off the boiler?
Has the boiler a separate timeclock to the UFH or is it called in by the UFH control centre?
How many room thermostats do you have controlling the system?
What is the mixing valve temp set to?
What are the loop flow temps at compared to the return loop temps?
Are they zone valves separating zone manifolds?
When it was installed, what thickness insulation was installed in the floor & was it turned up around the perimeter of rooms?
Is the boiler a standard efficiency or high efficiency?
How often is it serviced & do you get a flue gas analysis print out everytime on completion of the service?
What is the kw output of the boiler?

Ah Here

These are some questions you should be asking.
Is the UFH on constant? YES
Is it interlocked with the boiler so that when the last loop is satisfied it switches off the boiler? I THINK SO
Has the boiler a separate timeclock to the UFH or is it called in by the UFH control centre? DON'T KNOW
How many room thermostats do you have controlling the system? 8
What is the mixing valve temp set to? 40 DEGREES
What are the loop flow temps at compared to the return loop temps? DONT KNOW
Are they zone valves separating zone manifolds? SOME ZONES HAVE TWO ACTUATOR VALVES
When it was installed, what thickness insulation was installed in the floor & was it turned up around the perimeter of rooms? 100MM UNDER AND 25MM AROUND THE SIDES
Is the boiler a standard efficiency or high efficiency?
How often is it serviced & do you get a flue gas analysis print out everytime on completion of the service? ONCE A YEAR AND NO
What is the kw output of the boiler?
ITS A FIREBIRD C26 AND IT SAYS 21.6 -42KWS

THANKS

shane0007

By the sounds of it, you wouldn't have to spend a lot to majorly reduce your consumption.
When I mentioned zone valves, I meant motorised valves & not loop actuators. The zone valves would stop heat going through to manifolds are not requiring heat, but the actuators would be.
Time control over each manifold would be of great benefit.
Time control with a motorised valve & cylinder stat is a must for the hot water cylinder.
Time control over the manifold or Heatmiser's set back stats are great.
Boiler service with an analyiser print out is a must as the boiler could be way off. Firebird C26 would be no harm to service more frequently but by somebody who understands them.

Ah Here

Thanks a mill Shane,

Sounds like i need to get a ufh expert in allright. Pulsar are gone bust so they are no good to me.

By time control do you mean not having the heating on constant?

Dtp1979

Ah Here wrote: »

Thanks a mill Shane,

Sounds like i need to get a ufh expert in allright. Pulsar are gone bust so they are no good to me.

By time control do you mean not having the heating on constant?

Guardian solutions have pretty much taken over the old pulsar brand. I've no number as I don't use their stuff. I think they're based in cork

oikster

Sounds to me more like a serious shortage of pipework. If your UF loops are not sufficient to heat the areas they are in then the stats will never be satisfied.This is probably why you are burning so much oil and not getting results. The heat has to be going somewhere. See below:

Its an oil condensing boiler we have. The manifold is in the centre of the house, and one other thing the rep did was he disconnected a temp cut off stat on the mainifold as it was switching the system off once it got to a certain temp.

Ah Here

oikster wrote: »

Sounds to me more like a serious shortage of pipework. If your UF loops are not sufficient to heat the areas they are in then the stats will never be satisfied.This is probably why you are burning so much oil and not getting results. The heat has to be going somewhere. See below:

Its an oil condensing boiler we have. The manifold is in the centre of the house, and one other thing the rep did was he disconnected a temp cut off stat on the mainifold as it was switching the system off once it got to a certain temp.

the rooms are heating up sufficently

oikster

After how long and for how long.

oikster

Shane asked a question about return temperatures,you need to find this out.

Ah Here

thanks oikster, I need to find someone in Kerry who will sort me out, most of the plumbers who've had a look at it are chancing their arm

oikster

Just out of interest,what type of screed did you use and to what depth?

Ah Here

oikster wrote: »

Just out of interest,what type of screed did you use and to what depth?

Concrete downstairs and easycreed upstairs, cant remember the depth

timmy4u2

Ah Here wrote: »

thanks oikster, I need to find someone in Kerry who will sort me out, most of the plumbers who've had a look at it are chancing their arm

Is there a guy someplace around Rathmore named Tim Cremin. He invinted the oxyvent. Supposed to be a good plummer.
All of my friends who have either UFH or pellet fired heating are regretting having either of those systems installed.
Thankfully I shied away from those systems at the time.
Before Christmas I fitted Solo Rads and whereas I have not yet done everything as it should have been they have been a massive success.
Great heat and a big reduction in my fuel bill

oikster

When you say easyscreed,is this a liquid screed like say from Larsen or such.

SpaceTime

Get it checked out but those bills may not be out of line with normal.

Our radiator based system isn't too efficient but due to endless gas price hikes we're getting to the stage that we need to cut back on heating.

Unfortunately is as much a symptom of bad governance as bad plumbing

You'd want to maybe look at how many litres of oil you're using rather than the price and compare with previous years.

Definitely get the system checked out though and compare your usage with similar sized homes.

I've found a lot of people are actually unaware of their annual heating costs as they often just don't add them up and operate month to month.

€208 per month isn't that unusual for a house that size.

You could maybe look at other cheaper fuels like wood pellet etc?

shane0007

oikster wrote: »

Sounds to me more like a serious shortage of pipework. If your UF loops are not sufficient to heat the areas they are in then the stats will never be satisfied.This is probably why you are burning so much oil and not getting results. The heat has to be going somewhere.

Not necessarily as if the zones are satisfied, there will be little draw from the 70C loop & the boiler will be constantly on top of the demand, leading to constant short cycling of the boiler. This is the worst condition for a condensing boiler, especially a Firebird.

IMO, the system seems to be ok. The controls are terrible.
Two options:
1. Upgrade the controls completely to something such as the Heatmiser as they are better for UFH as they are not on/off controls as such, but rather a desired temperature during a timed period. Add motorised valves to each manifold & dhw circuits. Timed control for the HW can be done through one of the Heatmiser PRT-HW stats, usually in the kitchen.
2. All of 1. but also add in a small buffer tank/thermal store. The boiler will heat the buffer but called in via a Resol TT1. This allows 2no call points so if buffer falls below 40C, boiler will fire & switches off once 70C is reached. HW circuit would be via a 3 port diverted valve bypassing the buffer. Buffer only feeds the UFH.
Timed controlled UFH with temperature determined time periods rather than on/off periods works far better & more economical.

That's my opinion anyhow.

oikster

A simple check of return temps and time taken for zones to reach temp will verify correct system sizing before spending on controls.

shane0007

A house of 2,500sqft with UFH should not be using €2,500 worth of oil per heat for heating & hot water. Hot water will be taking about €700 depending on number of users & volume used, so that leaves approx €1,800 for heating.
I have a 3,000sqft house & last year it cost me €1,000 for heating. It will probably hit €200 for hot water but I have a different set up than most.

Ah Here

shane0007 wrote: »

A house of 2,500sqft with UFH should not be using €2,500 worth of oil per heat for heating & hot water. Hot water will be taking about €700 depending on number of users & volume used, so that leaves approx €1,800 for heating.
I have a 3,000sqft house & last year it cost me €1,000 for heating. It will probably hit €200 for hot water but I have a different set up than most.

Sound point out i have a solar panel for hot water aswell.