Partner not contributing towards a house deposit. <Mod warning posts #77, #101>

kylith

I would be very cautious of anyone who is pushing to get married after only being together a year. Marry in haste, repent at leisure, as they say.

purplecow1977

green_screen wrote: »

Just one word of advice - don't put a house in your name and let her 'rent' from you. If you cohabit for a certain number of years (can't remember off the top of my head) she gains similar rights to the property as if she were married to you.

Really?!

Can you direct me to an article which says this please?

(Not doubting you, just want to inform myself!)

LegacyUser

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Really?!

Can you direct me to an article which says this please?

(Not doubting you, just want to inform myself!)

This is true.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/family_home.html

See the property adjustment order part.

This has got me now. I bought a house, took out the mortgage and all that and met a woman like the op is describing. I had thousands in savings which I was bled dry, now I have no savings. We have a child together. I recently found out she has been sleeping with someone else so I went and got legal advice. She'll get the child and the house while I am left paying the mortgage. The courts can award her the house while the mortgage is with me and the bank, she has nothing to do with that and I will be left paying that if I decide to go. Also as she is not working, I have to pay for the lifestyle she has come accustom to in maintenance and then child support on top of that too. Its just not fair. No wonder the suicide rate in men is much higher.

So op run like clappers as they say, she will get everything.

Czarcasm

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Really?!

Can you direct me to an article which says this please?

(Not doubting you, just want to inform myself!)

Redress Scheme for Cohabiting Couples

LegacyUser

OP here again, thanks for all the responses. I don't have time to give a detailed reply now but all the responses have given me a lot to think about and I will be doing a lot of that over the next few days.

I did mention in my original post that she will probably inherit a house and some land. I would rather make my own way in life and not be depending on somebody leaving something to me in order to put a roof over my head. This is given as part of the reason for her not saving for the future but she has repeatedly said that its the mans job to provide the house and the evidence suggests that she has lived her life by this. I probably will be left something in the future but I am not depending on it, just adding that so that whole story is here.

When a few posters said that she might give up work after the first kid this made me think.

Jenneke87

All you should be thinking about is running for the hills, and fast It sounds like you have a good life, save this leech you're dating, don't let her ruin that.

The Corinthian

kylith wrote: »

I would be very cautious of anyone who is pushing to get married after only being together a year. Marry in haste, repent at leisure, as they say.

Very commonplace for thirty-somethings. Both genders realize they're not getting any younger and they decide it's time to settle down, so they go out find a mammal who ticks enough boxes on a socio-economic and physical check-list and are married and/or breeding within 24 months.

Attending the weddings to such marriages is like watching a car crash in slow motion and a white dress/morning suit. Without exception, in my experience, both are miserable within five years.

clairefontaine

You seem to be the engine behind the property search, and it could appear that YOU want to get your foot on the ladder and her co-operation is the means to do that. Since she is unwilling to do that, then buy the house yourself and keep your own name on the deeds and mortgage. If you are worried about claims up the road in case of a split, live seperately or wok out a tenancy agreement. You started looking when you first started dating her. Surely this is somewhat a speedy response to initial dating? If I were dating someone and the following week was out looking for property, I'd be a little concerned tbh. In fact I might even play the "your the guy, you deal with it" card in order to extracate myself from the pressure of house buying while still being able to enjoy that person's company.

There are still plenty out there with the traditional model of things, so maybe find someone who has more compatible values with your own.

Her debt. Lots of people are in debt, and way more than what she is in. And you know she is in debt, and yet you still want her to loan up to help you get a house? One you started looking for even before you started dating?

Quite frankly you both smell fishy.

The Corinthian

dontknowwhattodo wrote: »

I did mention in my original post that she will probably inherit a house and some land.

You'll never see a penny of that inheritance as people like will make sure of it. What'll happen is that she'll live in your house (which becomes the 'family home' and she'll have an automatic claim to) while you will not have an automatic claim to her house, because you don't live in it. Seen it all before.

simonsays1

She has also begrudgingly said that she will pay half the mortgage but feels hard done by as none of her female relations has ever had to contribute towards a house.

This takes the biscuit!!!

FFS!!!!

Red flag, get out. Tell her straight up!

I'm female and I would expect 50;50 contribution.

Simone

The Corinthian

clairefontaine wrote: »

If you are worried about claims up the road in case of a split, live seperately or wok out a tenancy agreement.

A tenancy agreement won't cover him. They can sign an opt-out contract, but they're not fully binding and a judge can chuck them out if they feel like it. Living separately or breaking up, and living separately are the only certain ways of protecting yourself in Ireland.

Alternatively move to a country with less stupid laws on cohabitation (basically everywhere except Australia, Scotland and Canadian British Colombia).

And you know she is in debt, and yet you still want her to loan up to help you get a house?

If the plan is that they're going to share their assets till death do them part, as seems to be the case, it's a perfectly reasonable expectation, TBH.

clairefontaine

The Corinthian wrote: »

A tenancy agreement won't cover him. They can sign an opt-out contract, but they're not fully binding and a judge can chuck them out if they feel like it. Living separately or breaking up, and living separately are the only certain ways of protecting yourself in Ireland.

Alternatively move to a country with less stupid laws on cohabitation (basically everywhere except Australia, Scotland and Canadian British Colombia).

If the plan is that they're going to share their assets till death do them part, as seems to be the case, it's a perfectly reasonable expectation, TBH.

Not really. You can't want someone to clear their debts and also expect them to put a deposit down and be upset if they wont. It's not realistic. If OP wants to get on the property ladder, and my feeling is this is what this is all about if you look at the time line of how things progressed, then OP should find a debt free modern woman in post Celtic Tiger crashed out Ireland to collaborate with.

Also, I'm not sure what the law in Ireland is about responsibility for a spouse's or cohabitee's debt that accrued BEFORE the marriage, or if it only applies to debts accrued DURING the marriage. It's certainly worth getting some solid knowledge on that front.

purplecow1977

clairefontaine wrote: »

You seem to be the engine behind the property search, and it could appear that YOU want to get your foot on the ladder and her co-operation is the means to do that. Since she is unwilling to do that, then buy the house yourself and keep your own name on the deeds and mortgage. If you are worried about claims up the road in case of a split, live seperately or wok out a tenancy agreement. You started looking when you first started dating her. Surely this is somewhat a speedy response to initial dating? If I were dating someone and the following week was out looking for property, I'd be a little concerned tbh. In fact I might even play the "your the guy, you deal with it" card in order to extracate myself from the pressure of house buying while still being able to enjoy that person's company.

There are still plenty out there with the traditional model of things, so maybe find someone who has more compatible values with your own.

Her debt. Lots of people are in debt, and way more than what she is in. And you know she is in debt, and yet you still want her to loan up to help you get a house? One you started looking for even before you started dating?

Quite frankly you both smell fishy.

I think he happened to be viewing places when he met her!!!

I think you've gotten the completely wrong end of the stick!!!! He doesn't smell fishy at all!

Flippyfloppy

"dontknowwhattodo wrote:

When a few posters said that she might give up work after the first kid this made me think.

In fairness, if it made you think because that would be unaffordable it's one thing, but there's not much wrong with her wanting to stay home with her child to watch him/her grow. Good childcare is hard to find and expensive too and once many parents have their wee babies they want to spend every minute with them.

Now if she wants to stop working before her first child then you've a problem.

But why would she, she has been in the same , good job for ten years? She obviously enjoys it. Surely it's a bit of a stretch to imagine she's going to want to sit at home and basically lose a large party of her identity just so she can sponge of you OP? You know her best!

Czarcasm

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I think he happened to be viewing places when he met her!!!

I think you've gotten the completely wrong end of the stick!!!! He doesn't smell fishy at all!

Tbh both the OP and his girlfriend sound as naive as each other. It just sounds to me like the relationship was 'great' during the initial 'honeymoon' period, and all the while the OP was still eyeballing the property market, so the relationship with this girl seems almost a secondary concern. OP how did you not know this stuff about your girlfriend a year ago? Or had you chosen to ignore it then too?

It doesn't sound like you're ready either for the property ladder or the relationship when all you value your girlfriend for is her road frontage. You're already eyeballing property you think SHE might inherit, as well as property YOU might inherit. I really don't know what's going on in your head OP tbh but there really is an awful whiff of money madness off your posts. I don't think you've thought this through at all at all.

Is there anything positive you could say about your girlfriend that would balance out the 'gold-digger' theme of this thread?

There's not a lot fazes me, but the amount of fortune-telling, cynical suspicion and jumping to wild conclusions based on very little evidence in this thread is a bit of an eyebrow raiser tbh.

Taltos

OK all - please keep your replies on point. The OP has not come here to be judged but is seeking advice on their relationship.

If you think an issue is "fishy" or otherwise please report it. Otherwise posting in the manner above is considered off topic.

Thanks
Taltos

helimachoptor

dontknowwhattodo wrote: »

I did mention in my original post that she will probably inherit a house and some land. I would rather make my own way in life and not be depending on somebody leaving something to me in order to put a roof over my head. This is given as part of the reason for her not saving for the future but she has repeatedly said that its the mans job to provide the house and the evidence suggests that she has lived her life by this. I probably will be left something in the future but I am not depending on it, just adding that so that whole story is here.

When a few posters said that she might give up work after the first kid this made me think.

Op my wife stands to inherit a pretty sizeable land portfolio out west (split with her sisters) but its pretty large, with a lot of it coastal and prime for holiday homes (thats for another thread). She is not basing her spousal, financial decisions based off something that could be 20-30 years away!

OP chances are you're GFs in laws are probably going to be around for a while.
Lets say you get married and they are alive for another 20 years, what does she expect you to do? pay for everything until then... and you can be 100% sure when she sells the house/land it will be 100% "her money" despite you supporting her for X number of years.


I think it was said above, but take a long long read through this forum, there are so many stories where the guy went out with someone who sounded like your current GF and ended up a broken man.

CaraMay

Op you really don't even seem to like the girl!!! Plenty of women would love to give up work after the kids arrive as it's the way plenty of us were reared - there is nothing wrong with wanting that.

We don't know who she is inheriting the house from. It could be her 103 year old aunt?

She is wrong to be expecting to be minded but it's really clear, by the way you speak of her that you have f all respect for her. Move on and meet someone who has saved her communion money. You might he happy then.

The Corinthian

CaraMay wrote: »

Plenty of women would love to give up work after the kids arrive as it's the way plenty of us were reared - there is nothing wrong with wanting that.

The problem, from what the OP has said, is not that his partner might 'want' to do that, but that she might feel 'entitled' to do that - and while how we are reared may leave us desiring certain rights, it does not excuse a sense entitlement to them. There is something very wrong with that.

The OP appears to be a classic case of a thirty-something who's decided to settle down and his current girlfriend ticked enough boxes until closer examination. He repeatedly explained how he's looking after his future, buying a home and so on. Marriage and kids is part of the plan.

Thing is I have never seen a happy marriage come of these rushed, thirty-something romances-by-numbers. Invariably and eventually, I've seen them end up in splits, or more often with one or both being desperately unhappy and trapped, typically within ten years.

The OP is lucky. He's realized this before he passed the event horizon.

Ann84

Hi OP,

I am late 20's woman and with my BF just over 2 years, like you, I was house hunting when we met and bought 6 months in, he moved in 6 month's later.
The house is mine, my deposit, my mortgage, my name on the deeds. My BF will be entitled to half if and when we get married, but only half of what he takes on at the start of the marriage. We talked about all of this, about how it is fair that I protect my investment to date and we would go down the route of legal contracts for same. Love is lovely, separation is not and we want to be pragmatic as much as we can. He is completely understanding but the deal is I am 100% responsible for maintaining the house, he puts money into the bills and shopping, I cover mortgage and household maintenance (new appliances etc.)
It wwould take a number of years for him to have a claim on the property and if we are not getting married by that stage, he'll be long moved out!
My point is buying a house is a MASSIVE investment and if you are coughing up the dough, you need to protect yourself.
On a side note, I find some of these references to women being raised to be housewives offensive and seriously outdated. I would consider myself a good example of a modern Irish nearly 30 baby brained ticking time bomb... I still understand I have to make a living and contribute more than babies to my relationship and household. Couples can't afford to live like that and any woman my age thinking any different must have living under a rock for the last 8 years. Sounds to me like she thinks she's found her meal ticket in you OP... Best of luck

CaraMay

Ann any kind of spend on your life as a couple will be taken into account if you marry and split.

alias06

Ann84 wrote: »

My BF will be entitled to half if and when we get married, but only half of what he takes on at the start of the marriage.

You can't gaurantee this I'm afraid.

Anyway there is absolutely no point counting the nickles and dimes. If that is your attitude goint into a marriage then what is the point? You are supposed to love the person and want to be there for them through thick and thin, in sickness and in health, for better or worse. If that is not how you feel then don't get married.

Ann84

CaraMay wrote: »

Ann any kind of spend on your life as a couple will be taken into account if you marry and split.

That is true but that is after (if) we marry. We have already discussed and agreed to draft a witnessed prenuptial agreement which are considered in Ireland in separations provided we have both sought legal advice prior to drafting it.
The agreement only relates to the house, and rightly so as I have invested a significant figure in purchasing and fitting it out whIle he has not been in a position to.
The agreement will indicate that if we were to separate, the house would be sold and the proceeds split only after a portion is deducted to me to cover my investment prior to marriage
He in turn isn't expected to contribute anything to the house prior to marriage.
If he doesn't like it, he can rent down the road and come stay every night!
It works for us but the point is my partner respects my investment and isn't expecting half of it just because we are a couple, nore do I expect half of his! (ps - we are on similar incomes and I don't ask him what he spends his money on while I'm buying dishwashers!)
Check out;
www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/pre_nuptial_agreements.html

The Corinthian

alias06 wrote: »

You can't gaurantee this I'm afraid.

Indeed. Legally pre-nups are not recognised in Ireland, although they've been discussing changing that for a few years now. Even if they were, they can be successfully challenged, and as Irish courts tend to rule on the basis of how a judge feels on the day, I wouldn't want to rely upon one.

In Ireland, if it is the 'family home' (i.e. where you live together), then your spouse will have a claim on that home the moment there's rings on your fingers. They might not get anything, or very little, but it doesn't change the fact that the right to this claim is automatic.

If you want to better protect your property, move out and live in rented accommodation and rent your own property out.

Anyway there is absolutely no point counting the nickles and dimes. If that is your attitude goint into a marriage then what is the point? You are supposed to love the person and want to be there for them through thick and thin, in sickness and in health, for better or worse. If that is not how you feel then don't get married.

Yes and everybody lives happily ever after.

Unfortunately, married or not, in Ireland people no longer have a choice anyway - all you have to do is live together long enough.

Ann84

We can only do our best within the legal constraints alright but the point really is that my partner is willing to put down on paper, in front of witnesses and following legal advice that I should be entitled to a proportion of the house prior to spilt of the remaining value should we separate.

It's because we love each other very deeply and respect each other as individuals in the relationship that we have considered this and are even discussing marriage...
Love is not blind, it may be niev but it's not blind and my story is merely to show an opposing view by a woman in a similar demographic to the OPs partner... And highlight some of the options available.
I do still think the OPs partner is not being honest with her intentions, and he should protect his investment however he goes about it.

clairefontaine

Ann84 wrote: »

That is true but that is after (if) we marry. We have already discussed and agreed to draft a witnessed prenuptial agreement which are considered in Ireland in separations provided we have both sought legal advice prior to drafting it.
The agreement only relates to the house, and rightly so as I have invested a significant figure in purchasing and fitting it out whIle he has not been in a position to.
The agreement will indicate that if we were to separate, the house would be sold and the proceeds split only after a portion is deducted to me to cover my investment prior to marriage
He in turn isn't expected to contribute anything to the house prior to marriage.
If he doesn't like it, he can rent down the road and come stay every night!
It works for us but the point is my partner respects my investment and isn't expecting half of it just because we are a couple, nore do I expect half of his! (ps - we are on similar incomes and I don't ask him what he spends his money on while I'm buying dishwashers!)
Check out;
www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/pre_nuptial_agreements.html

Here's the rub. The same rub in every marriage. People change.

I am not a house owner, nor have I ever had the property itch myself, but certainly if I did and I chose to settle with someone, I would walk in assuming that half was theirs already, regardless of the proportion of each investment. And if I wasn't prepared to do that, I would not buy a house and establish a partnership/marriage with them. Much like if I lend someone money, in my head I think of it as a gift, and if I'm not prepared to NOT get the money back, then I don't give it. In other words, I assume loss or gift [however way you want to look at it] and if I'm not prepared to do that, then I don't do it.

It's one thing when it's a partnership or a marriage, but if up the road you have children and split, children are something the gloves will come off for, people will shed their own blood and each others over children, and they will do what every they need to do for that, even if that means finding holes and invalidities in old contracts that are based on good will and nothing more. Contracts can be signed,but they can be broken too and they are every single day with little trouble.

Can we go back to advising OP please

username123

Pre nups aren't worth the paper they are written in in Irish courts, if you marry, or live together long enough, it's all 50:50. If you want to protect your assets, stay single. It's not a great attitude to go into a marriage with anyway, it's supposed to be a shared life.

Calmsurrender

Ann84 wrote: »

We can only do our best within the legal constraints alright but the point really is that my partner is willing to put down on paper, in front of witnesses and following legal advice that I should be entitled to a proportion of the house prior to spilt of the remaining value should we separate.

It's because we love each other very deeply and respect each other as individuals in the relationship that we have considered this and are even discussing marriage...
Love is not blind, it may be niev but it's not blind and my story is merely to show an opposing view by a woman in a similar demographic to the OPs partner... And highlight some of the options available.
I do still think the OPs partner is not being honest with her intentions, and he should protect his investment however he goes about it.

I think the OPs partner HAS been honest though that's the scary part.
She says she wants a proposal and no woman in her family pays etc.
She's outlined her expectations very clearly!!
It would be different if the man had married her and she quit contributing over night.
If he goes through with it he won't be surprised when she takes him for everything he has

Ann84

Calmsurrender wrote: »

I think the OPs partner HAS been honest though that's the scary part.
She says she wants a proposal and no woman in her family pays etc.
She's outlined her expectations very clearly!!
It would be different if the man had married her and she quit contributing over night.
If he goes through with it he won't be surprised when she takes him for everything he has

That's what I meant and completely agree!