Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

_Kaiser_

curioser wrote: »

From 8th May - quelle surprise!

Yea not really surprised there. With Kenny loyalist Fitzgerald at the helm and the aim being to settle things down after the Shatter/Callinan debacle but nothing else, O'Sullivan was a shoe-in really.

Business as usual then. Politicians should have no say in appointing positions like this (or judges for that matter!)

nice_guy80

Don't forget the politicians appointing Noreen's direct boss too (for crime matters)

everything else goes straight to fitzgerald

conorh91

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Business as usual then. Politicians should have no say in appointing positions like this (or judges for that matter!)

O'Sullivan was effectively appointed by a committee of the Public Appointments Service, since she was the only candidate put forward by that committee for the Government's rubber stamp.

I agree that the Government shouldn't have the rubber stamp in the first place, but there is no serious reason to believe that O'Sullivan's appointment was politically driven.

sparkling sea

conorh91 wrote: »

O'Sullivan was effectively appointed by a committee of the Public Appointments Service, since she was the only candidate put forward by that committee for the Government's rubber stamp.

I agree that the Government shouldn't have the rubber stamp in the first place, but there is no serious reason to believe that O'Sullivan's appointment was politically driven.

Except that she was the former deputy commissionor!! Our police service has been castigated and found to be unfit for purpose, for many many reasons, so lets give the job to a person who is knee deep, in a corrupt not fit for purpose organisation - that'll bring about the change we need - not.

gizmo555

conorh91 wrote: »

O'Sullivan was effectively appointed by a committee of the Public Appointments Service, since she was the only candidate put forward by that committee for the Government's rubber stamp.

I agree that the Government shouldn't have the rubber stamp in the first place, but there is no serious reason to believe that O'Sullivan's appointment was politically driven.

There was a lot made of the competition being open and the possibility of an external, non-Garda, possibly foreign candidate being appointed. Apparently some such candidates applied. There was an interesting take on this from John Mooney, security correspondent of the "Sunday Times", talking to Matt Cooper yesterday.

His view was that since the Gardaí have responsibility for state security and intelligence, there was never any possibility of a non-Irish candidate being appointed.

Alan_P

gizmo555 wrote: »

There was a lot made of the competition being open and the possibility of an external, non-Garda, possibly foreign candidate being appointed. Apparently some such candidates applied. There was an interesting take on this from John Mooney, security correspondent of the "Sunday Times", talking to Matt Cooper yesterday.

His view was that since the Gardaí have responsibility for state security and intelligence, there was never any possibility of a non-Irish candidate being appointed.

It's not necessarily to do with state security and intelligence. There are things that the Garda Commissioner has to know, by virtue simply of being the state's most senior police officer, that we don't necessarily want a former British Deputy Chief Constable knowing, for example.

Aside from that,I did read a report a while back suggesting that the other candidates were pretty underwhelming, and that O'Sullivan was the only credible candidate.

conorh91

sparkling sea wrote: »

Except that she was the former deputy commissionor!! … lets give the job to a person who is knee deep, in a corrupt not fit for purpose organization ...

I'm not sure if Noirin O'Sullivan is the right choice for the job. All I said was that it was effectively a non-political appointment.

If the PAS drew up a list of five or seven equally meritorious international candidates alongside Noirin O'Sullivan, and the Government then appointed O'Sullivan, accusations of fowl play might have a stronger basis.

But the PAS, in an independent competition, only recommended one candidate to the Government. Not appointing O'Sullivan would have been inappropriate political involvement. But some people only oppose inappropriate political involvement when it chimes in harmony with the beat of their drum.

gizmo555 wrote: »

His view was that since the Gardaí have responsibility for state security and intelligence, there was never any possibility of a non-Irish candidate being appointed.

I think he's wrong.

Sure just look at the CV of Sir Hugh Orde, and how he's moved between forces, to see that John Mooney is talking nonsense. Not for the first time.

older i get better i was

Norin o Sullivan should check out this cop, he cares for his community and speaks from the heart, which is more than can be said for her embarrassing performance as our new commissioner.
http://conservativetribune.com/police-black-crime/

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm not sure if Noirin O'Sullivan is the right choice for the job. All I said was that it was effectively a non-political appointment.

If the PAS drew up a list of five or seven equally meritorious international candidates alongside Noirin O'Sullivan, and the Government then appointed O'Sullivan, accusations of fowl play might have a stronger basis.

But the PAS, in an independent competition, only recommended one candidate to the Government. Not appointing O'Sullivan would have been inappropriate political involvement. But some people only oppose inappropriate political involvement when it chimes in harmony with the beat of their drum.

I think he's wrong.

Sure just look at the CV of Sir Hugh Orde, and how he's moved between forces, to see that John Mooney is talking nonsense. Not for the first time.

conorh91

older i get better i was wrote: »

Norin o Sullivan should check out this cop, he cares for his community and speaks from the heart, which is more than can be said for her embarrassing performance as our new commissioner.
http://conservativetribune.com/police-black-crime/

That's a website whose motif is a white American militia-man, sporting a revolutionary war uniform and pointing a long-rifle, and whose article is a tirade against -- and, I'm quoting here -- "the black-on-black crime".

And this is where you want our Commissioner to draw inspiration from.

Riiight.

My name is URL

conorh91 wrote: »

That's a website whose motif is a white American militia-man, sporting a revolutionary war uniform and pointing a long-rifle, and whose article is a tirade against -- and, I'm quoting here -- "the black-on-black crime".

And this is where you want our Commissioner to draw inspiration from.

Riiight.

Where did the poster say that?

gizmo555

conorh91 wrote: »

Sure just look at the CV of Sir Hugh Orde, and how he's moved between forces, to see that John Mooney is talking nonsense. Not for the first time.

Orde moved between regional police forces within one state, the United Kingdom, in which the police don't have the same state security and intelligence functions which the Gardaí do here. Mooney is at least plausible.

conorh91

gizmo555 wrote: »

Orde moved between regional police forces within one state, the United Kingdom, in which the police don't have the same state security and intelligence functions which the Gardaí do here.

I think that's quite a weak argument, with respect. All police forces deal with intelligence regarding security to some extent, and in 2002, Hugh Orde had far more on his plate in this regard, than our Garda Commissioner does in 2014.

The role of a chief police constable/ Garda Commissioner is akin to that of a CEO. As I said, the decision to appoint Noirin O'Sullivan seems perfectly legitimate and fair, but I cannot believe there is a serious bar to a the appointment of a foreign policing expert.

older i get better i was

conorh91 wrote: »

That's a website whose motif is a white American militia-man, sporting a revolutionary war uniform and pointing a long-rifle, and whose article is a tirade against -- and, I'm quoting here -- "the black-on-black crime".

And this is where you want our Commissioner to draw inspiration from.

Riiight.

Watch the clip it speaks for itself, I've never seen that site before, you know what my point was.

gizmo555

conorh91 wrote: »

I think that's quite a weak argument, with respect. All police forces deal with intelligence regarding security to some extent, and in 2002, Hugh Orde had far more on his plate in this regard, than our Garda Commissioner does in 2014.

Orde would absolutely be more than competent for the job. That's not the point.

The issue Mooney raised was that he or any other non-Irish candidate wouldn't be acceptable in the role, because it combines ordinary policing with highly sensitive state security and intelligence functions which in other countries are more commonly the job of dedicated agencies. He claimed that for this reason there was never any possibility of any external candidate being appointed.

Personally, I'm appalled that the woman who sat literally shoulder-to-shoulder with ex-Commissioner Callinan and didn't bat an eyelid as he delivered his "disgusting" verdict on the whistleblowers has got the job.

conorh91

gizmo555 wrote: »

The issue Mooney raised was that he or any other non-Irish candidate wouldn't be acceptable in the role, because it combines ordinary policing with highly sensitive state security and intelligence functions which in other countries are more commonly the job of dedicated agencies.

But again, what is the specific problem with a non-Irish national being appointed?

Is it that there would be a fear that a former Commissioner would go and return to work for another police service?

Because that argument doesn't hold much water. Irish Commissioners can leave and work for foreign police agencies just as easily as non-Irish Commissioners can. Former-Commissioner Callinan cannot legally be prevented from being appointed head of MI5, for example, despite having been the operational head our State's security services. So I'm not sure what nationality has to do with anything.

gizmo555

conorh91 wrote: »

But again, what is the specific problem with a non-Irish national being appointed?

Because he or she wouldn't have the same allegiance to this country as an Irish appointee. Look, I'm just telling you what Mooney claimed. I don't know if it's true, but I do think it's at least plausible.

conorh91 wrote: »

Former-Commissioner Callinan cannot legally be prevented from being appointed head of MI5, for example, despite having been the operational head our State's security services. So I'm not sure what nationality has to do with anything.

He can, actually - he's not eligible for any job in MI5 on the grounds of his nationality:

You must be a British citizen to work for the Security Service. One of your parents should also be British or have substantial ties to the UK.

https://www.mi5.gov.uk/careers/how-to-apply/eligibility.aspx

There's a great many other roles in the UK intelligence services and military which only UK citizens are eligible for.

conorh91

gizmo555 wrote: »

Because he or she wouldn't have the same allegiance to this country as an Irish appointee.

Again, a very weak argument. A non-Irish national would have legal obligations to maintain secrets in exactly the same way an Irish national does, and either individual could be prosecuted in Ireland for not doing so. Claiming that an Irish person has some in-built fidelity to the State is easily refuted by reference to the many Irish politicians, Gardai and private citizens who have been unbending in their efforts to enhance their own position and interests at the expense of their country.

He can, actually - he's not eligible for any job in MI5 on the grounds of his nationality:

It was a random example. The national security service of France, Germany, outer Mongolia, then. Wherever. There are no effective means of restricting the movement of former Irish Commissioners.

gizmo555

conorh91 wrote: »

Again, a very weak argument.

FFS, it's not my effing argument! It's Mooney's!

conorh91 wrote: »

It was a random example. The national security service of France, Germany, outer Mongolia, then. Wherever. There are no effective means of restricting the movement of former Irish Commissioners.

Of course there aren't, just the same as the UK couldn't stop Hugh Orde taking up the Garda Commissioner's job here, if he was offered it. What's your point?

conorh91

gizmo555 wrote: »

Of course there aren't, just the same as the UK couldn't stop Hugh Orde taking up the Garda Commissioner's job here, if he was offered it. What's your point?

.

conorh91 wrote: »

Irish Commissioners can leave and work for foreign police agencies just as easily as non-Irish Commissioners can.

_Kaiser_

Meanwhile, nothing has changed it seems...

A garda had penalty points wiped for a sixth time, even after a new system was introduced in June to tighten up abuses of the system.

An internal audit made the discovery after examining around 600 motorists had penalty points wiped several times.
The Sunday Independent reports one particular garda had penalty points cancelled on six different occasions, most recently in June, after the new rules were introduced by the Garda Commissioner.

The garda got the points for speeding while he was on his way to work.

Can't say I'm surprised. The problems within AGS extend to the core and appointing another insider as Commissioner was never going to (or indeed intended to) change that.

michael999999

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Meanwhile, nothing has changed it seems...



Can't say I'm surprised. The problems within AGS extend to the core and appointing another insider as Commissioner was never going to (or indeed intended to) change that.

And these are the guys supposedly investigating corruption in fine Gael/Fianna fail and there own organization are as bad!

charlie14

It would have been an interesting night in the Shatter and Callinan households last night I`d imagine, when Wilson and Mc Cabe got People Of The Year Awards.

_Kaiser_

Every day it just gets better with AGS...

The new Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan is facing demands to withdraw an “outrageous” advertisement for a qualified human rights assistant on the controversial JobBridge scheme.

The 40-hour a-week role requires a college degree or diploma, a human rights qualification and pays €50 a week on top of dole payments.

Padraig MacLochlainn TD, Sinn Fein’s justice spokesman, said it was “unreal” that the force would try to fill an important role “on the cheap”.
“It is outrageous they are trying to employ somebody on the cheap for what is clearly a role which is of obvious importance at this stage,” he said. “This sends out a signal that they are not taking human rights and accountability seriously.”

Mr MacLochlainn said questions will remain about a new beginning to policing under the recently appointed Garda chief Noirin O’Sullivan unless the advert is withdrawn.

Hard to argue with him really. The idea that someone approved a role like that to be advertised as a JobBridge internship is farcical - but shows how seriously they take the whole concept I suppose.

tayto lover

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Meanwhile, nothing has changed it seems...



Can't say I'm surprised. The problems within AGS extend to the core and appointing another insider as Commissioner was never going to (or indeed intended to) change that.

Yet another political appointment.
It's just plain wrong.

_Kaiser_

Here's another example today

A Dublin based Garda has been fined €3,000 for defrauding a bank out of €600 in an ATM scam.
Garda Raymond Geelan, 38, from Hayworth, the Ongar, Dublin 15, avoided a jail-term after pleading guilty to four counts of deception and a charge of attempted deception in connection with a series of ATM withdrawals.

Judge Michael Walsh said, “I can only conclude the accused was engaged in a premeditated and preplanned enterprise with the view of making a financial gain for himself.”

“His conduct flies in the face of the professional values and ethical standards which would have been expected of him, to always act in accordance with the oath of his office and to always act in accordance with the law,” he said.

No arguments with any of that - but then:

He was furnished with testimonials and noted the garda had an unblemished work history but will now face internal disciplinary proceedings.

Finalising the case, he said had to arrive at a sentence that was fair and proportionate; he spared the garda a jail sentence and imposed the fine which must be paid within six months.

Geelan received refunds with the total amount defrauded coming to €600. He is currently suspended from duty, on three-quarters' pay. The court heard he is about to become a father and had no previous criminal convictions.

What?? Fines? Internal disciplinary proceedings? Suspended with pay??

Why is this guy not fired and sitting in jail tonight? As the Judge himself pointed out, a Garda has certain standards expected of him/her above the Average Joe.. yet then he went on to impose a completely toothless sentence?? I wonder would Average Joe get the same slap on the wrist?

This is what's wrong with AGS, and the rot extends far deeper and wider!

gizmo555

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Why is this guy not fired and sitting in jail tonight?

Whatever about jail (which would be extremely harsh for a 1st offence, given the small sums stolen), as the man's defence solicitor said: "it is virtually inevitable he will be dismissed from the service”.

Presumably that kind of decision needed to be deferred until the outcome of the prosecution was known - innocent until proven guilty and all that!

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Here's another example today



No arguments with any of that - but then:



What?? Fines? Internal disciplinary proceedings? Suspended with pay??

Why is this guy not fired and sitting in jail tonight? As the Judge himself pointed out, a Garda has certain standards expected of him/her above the Average Joe.. yet then he went on to impose a completely toothless sentence?? I wonder would Average Joe get the same slap on the wrist?

This is what's wrong with AGS, and the rot extends far deeper and wider!

Suspended until the outcome of the criminal case against him is known.
He will lose the job alright.

I think you're being a bit harsh about the jail time though, it was a first offence of not huge amounts of money.
There are repeat offenders consistently avoiding jail time. That's worse in my opinion.

Muahahaha

Yeah in fairness stealing €600 shouldn't warrant a prison sentence. He will likely lose his job though, every year a handful of Gardai do lose their jobs for petty stuff like this, its daft really when you think that a Garda pension is worth somewhere around the €1m mark spread over 20-25 years of retirement. So stealing €600 when you have a pension pot on the way that is worth €1m is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Meanwhile in other news it seems like we can't get Shatter out of our hair. Now that his political career is on the rocks Shatter is turning to reality TV to try to keep himself relevant- he will appear as a contestant on The Restaurant due to screen on TV3 in January.

flutered

i seen something similar happen a few years back, the guy stole from fines or similar in the station, he was in court fined, he then resigned to stop being sacked, so he is a nice pension each week

conorh91

_Kaiser_ wrote:

This is what's wrong with AGS, and the rot extends far deeper and wider!

There are about 13,000 officers in An Garda. That's approximately the population of Tullamore. If Tullamore had as low an incidence of criminality as AGS, we wouldn't be talking about "the rot", we'd be talking about the most law-abiding town in the country.

By all means, we should expect that the criminality rate of AGS to be this low. We should expect high standards. But it is way over the top to claim "rot!" soon there is a minor, isolated criminality so rare that it sparks national headlines.

Of course, the classic response to low rates of criminality in AGS is to insist that there are cover-ups. But that doesn't explain why we do see some prosecutions. Does the DPP run these prosecutions as part of the elaborate pretense? Is it all really a conspiracy theory? The useful thing about conspiracy theories is that evidence is never, ever required. All you need is an internet poster, a random accusation, and an audience.