Am I just ignorant?

evil_seed

I've just had a discussion with my brother. In the recent stories of Michael Sam and Ellen Page I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made of gay people coming out? I don't get it. Why are they seen as inspiration? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

Legs.Eleven

Because homophobia is still rife worldwide.

stimpson

Ellen Page is gay? Nooooooooooooooo!!!!















Wait...who is Ellen Page?

Donkey Oaty

I see your point, but you could look on it as a celebration of the fact that being gay is no longer seen as career-ruining.

Nemeses

stimpson wrote: »

Wait...who is Ellen Page?

A person who is gay.. apparently..

MonstaMash

Agreed, can't understand it either

Throw a dinger of a party if you want to celebrate outing yourself...

Party on peeps & more power to ye \m/

The Dagda

One needs to know who one has a chance with.

One can't be having laminated lists with ineligible people on it...

biko

I suppose it still takes courage to come out, you never know who will turn their back on you.
And US isn't like us, they are still quite backward when it comes to this stuff.

Grumpypants

Yes. Do a tiny bit of research about the issues gay people face in the world from being ostracized from friends, family, social circles and jobs in the most liberal societies. Being subject to violent brutal humiliation attacks in places like Russia, all the way to being put to death in backward hellholes in Africa and the middle east.

Then ask why it's brave to face all that rather than live a lie.

kjl

stimpson wrote: »

Ellen Page is gay?

And here was me thinking it was she just had no chemistry with Micheal Cera.

MonstaMash

Grumpypants wrote: »

Yes. Do a tiny bit of research about the issues gay people face in the world from being ostracized from friends, family, social circles and jobs in the most liberal societies. Being subject to violent brutal humiliation attacks in places like Russia, all the way to being put to death in backward hellholes in Africa and the middle east.

Then ask why it's brave to face all that rather than live a lie.

Above all, be true to yourself & fook what other people think, I admire anyone with the courage to do so.

Monkeybonkers

biko wrote: »

I suppose it still takes courage to come out, you never know who will turn their back on you.
And US isn't like us, they are still quite backward when it comes to this stuff.

Like us? I'd say we're quite backward ourselves when it comes to 'this stuff'.

Earthhorse

Yes, by the sounds of it you are just ignorant; on this issue at least.

You aren't the world; they didn't come out just to you, who doesn't care about sexual orientation but to everyone, which includes some pretty vile people who aren't okay with certain types of sexual orientation in the slightest, in fact they're virulently opposed to them. This is pretty well publicised and I can't believe you didn't know it.

MagicMarker

evil_seed wrote: »

It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

Because the world doesn't revolve around you. There are other people in it too. Shock horror. And if it didn't matter to anyone at all then we wouldn't have to wait until 2014 for a (soon to be) NFL player who is openly gay.

Nemeses

Earthhorse wrote: »

Yes, by the sounds of it you are just ignorant; on this issue at least.

You aren't the world; they didn't come out just to you, who doesn't care about sexual orientation but to everyone, which includes some pretty vile people who aren't okay with certain types of sexual orientation in the slightest, in fact they're virulently opposed to them. This is pretty well publicised and I can't believe you didn't know it.

MagicMarker wrote: »

Because the world doesn't revolve around you. There are other people in it too. Shock horror. And if it didn't matter to anyone at all then we wouldn't have to wait until 2014 for a (soon to be) NFL player who is openly gay.

Bit harsh to another poster. ..

Do we have to "know" everything that publicised. I believe not.


What's publicised? A document that enforces Gays to come out in public.. not just thats it, no difference from being straight?

A TV documentary that forced the worlds population to watch this?


Naive maybe but your post seems like thats attacking the OP in a general discussion that is just asking "why the big fuss"

The world is indeed a bigger place but it doesn't mean to say everybody knows everybody's business.

Mickeroo

In light of what's been happening in Russia in the last year and all the homophobic nonsense we've gotten from Iona and their ilk here for example then you might be a little ignorant of why it's important for prominent people to come out like this, yes.

Earthhorse

Nemeses wrote: »

What's publicised? A document that enforces Gays to come out in public.. not just thats it, no difference from being straight?

A TV documentary that forced the worlds population to watch this?

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here. But to answer what's publicised, the plight of homosexuals in seeking equal rights is well publicised.

Naive maybe but your post seems like thats attacking the OP in a general discussion that is just asking "why the big fuss"

The world is indeed a bigger place but it doesn't mean to say everybody knows everybody's business.

And I am answering his question as to "why the big fuss". We don't have to know everything in the world no but there are certain salient facts of which if you're unaware then I consider you ignorant; that's the OP's word too, not mine. And as I said, ignorant on this issue, not necessarily everything else.

Plates

evil_seed wrote: »

I've just had a discussion with my brother. In the recent stories of Michael Sam and Ellen Page I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made of gay people coming out? I don't get it. Why are they seen as inspiration? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

You asked if you were just ignorant. You've shown that you are. Job well done. Time to move on.

bnt

It's not just the USA or Russia, either. In the UK Football Premier League, there is not a single openly gay player.

In some parts of the world, there's an emphasis on predefined roles for men and women. Men are masculine, women are feminine, and any subversion of those roles is perceived as a threat to "society" as well as the individual.

But I'm still surprised at the low level of the debate in the USA. This is the country whose founders used phrases like "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". No conditions were attached. What part of that do they not understand?

MonstaMash

bnt wrote: »

It's not just the USA or Russia, either. In the UK Football Premier League, there is not a single openly gay player.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2535805/Former-Aston-Villa-Everton-Germany-midfielder-Thomas-Hitzlsperger-reveals-gay.html

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25661228

Mickeroo

MonstaMash wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2535805/Former-Aston-Villa-Everton-Germany-midfielder-Thomas-Hitzlsperger-reveals-gay.html

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25661228

You should probably read those. That only supports the point, he didnt come out until he retired.

Femme_Fatale

The OP doesn't mean any badness in fairness.

On the one hand, I see their point - why make an announcement and thus make a bit of a big deal out of it, when it's not a big deal? Especially in the society in which they live (not all of America is backwards; some of the west coast is more right-on than The Guardian HQ). It's their personal business and if they're going out with someone of the same sex, then that's evidence enough.

But on the other hand, the bigger picture needs to be taken into account too - it might be ok in their societies, but it's not considered ok in so, so many other societies. They are public figures in sport and film so it's encouraging for those who are gay and look up to them. Plus, unfortunately not everyone in the more liberal societies will take it well - so it's a brave step no matter what.

Holsten

I'm the same OP.

What is the big deal? How many openly gay entertainers are there? Lots and lots.

It doesn't matter... why do it in this big way? Who cares like!

eisenberg1

The Dagda wrote: »

One needs to know who one has a chance with.

One can't be having laminated lists with ineligible people on it...

But does it not work both ways? Gay people have lists too:D

padd b1975

Grumpypants wrote: »

Yes. Do a tiny bit of research about the issues gay people face in the world from being ostracized from friends, family, social circles and jobs in the most liberal societies. Being subject to violent brutal humiliation attacks in places like Russia, all the way to being put to death in backward hellholes in Africa and the middle east.

Then ask why it's brave to face all that rather than live a lie.

Maybe you should do some research on the pair of celebrities referenced in the OP and their chances of experiencing some of the scenarios you have outlined in their self obsessed little bubbles.

They are hardly the 'heroes' you are trying to cast them as.

Naydy

I doubt that publicly coming out like this is aimed at the majority of people, it's to reach those isolated individuals who are struggling to come to terms with their own sexuality. I don't think any of us who are straight could ever fully understand how difficult this must be for some people.

So for most of us it might seem like "who cares?" or we'll think "good for her" and have forgotten about it in a few days.

But for a few it might give them the strength to come out themselves, or maybe even to feel like they are not that alone.

Fair play to her, i'd say it took a lot of courage.

How Soon Is Now

Nah your not ignorant OP soon as i seen it mentioned this morning on IMDB that she ''Came out'' first thing i taught was big ****ing deal sure anyone who knows anything about her or has ever seen her in any of her work would clearly know she was gay ffs.

But ya we dont understand where all ignorant....... bla :pac:

mikom

evil_seed wrote: »

I've just had a discussion with my brother. In the recent stories of Michael Sam and Ellen Page I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made of gay people coming out? I don't get it. Why are they seen as inspiration? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

Let's ask Simon Cowell who just had a baby with his "partner"........

mad muffin

Ellen Page coming out is the same as Liberace coming out.

I was like, no shît… :rolleyes:

Muise...

I'm guessing the "big announcement" is a really really really difficult thing to do, OP, but once it's done it must get a whole lot easier to tell new people you meet if it comes up in conversation. And to get on with your life without hiding it anymore. I've only had to do the heart-in-my-mouth big announcement to tell a man I've fallen for him (it has always come out at an awkward pitch, with a choking sound as if I'm already gobbling the poor divil up. ) so I'd multiply that by a few thousand to imagine the bravery it takes to come out, even in a society where most people will be sound about it.

Friend Computer

Holsten wrote: »

I'm the same OP.

What is the big deal? How many openly gay entertainers are there? Lots and lots.

It doesn't matter... why do it in this big way? Who cares like!

I'm going to quote someone who, I feel, sums up nicely why there's such a big deal about it.

Romantic relationships are inextricably embedded in conversation. Even in brief interactions, men talk about their girlfriends and ex girlfriends and women talk about their boyfriends and ex boyfriends. Being silent is not really possible because people wonder why you refuse to talk about these things. And, after a while, people begin to ask questions. If you are closeted then you don’t have many options: you can either come out and face the potentially devastating consequences; or you must actively lie about yourself.

Staying in the closet takes a lot of intelligence, social finesse and, most of all, endurance. It takes a lot of work to maintain a convincing lie. The effort of constantly creating plausible fictions and the persistent fear of being found out is a heavy burden to bare. And when you’re closeted, it is a burden that you will have to carry alone. It drains you. It even makes you sick. Studies have found that people with concealable stigma’s (eg closeted gays) have poorer physical and psychological health than people with non-concealable stigmas (eg open gays).

Straight folk don’t have to go through all this to conceal their identities so queer folk shouldn’t have to either. I hear a lot of homophobic straights (in general, not accusing the asker of anything) that complain about queers making them feel uncomfortable by making their existence known. I even hear them make the ludicrous claim that queer folk would be treated better if they weren’t so overtly gay. But I don’t think that equal rights can ever be won by allowing bigots to comfortably maintain their bigoted beliefs. In a democracy, equality is won by numbers, and to get numbers you need to make your presence known. In the Western world, we’ve come a long way when it comes to gay rights, but I think it is very naive to think that the progress we have made would still exist if queer folks just stayed in the closet. Fortunately a bunch of queer folks did not remain in the closet; they went out in the open chanting “we’re here, we’re queer, get used to it”. They didn’t allow themselves to be bullied back into the closet and, when it became clear that they were here to stay, people got used to it. And as more and more people came out a lot of families and friends found that their love outweighed their want to maintain their bigoted preconceptions.

That being said, people have good reason to stay in the closet. In the West we like to pretend that people are all independent, but the truth is that we all rely on the support of others. If a family cannot accept you and you are not financially independent then there is a good chance that you will spend the rest of your life on the street. If your school can’t accept you then you could be bullied so severely that you develop persistent mental disorders that you will have to live with for the rest of your life; and things could get so bad that you don’t even make it to adulthood.

Coming out is not about sexuality it’s about security. It is very difficult to hide your orientation forever. Closeted queers need to know that the people in their lives will accept them because their future depends on it. People will find out. And it’s very hard to get on with life when you know that, at any moment, everything can fall apart. That is why coming out is important.

Femme_Fatale

mad muffin wrote: »

Ellen Page coming out is the same as Liberace coming out.

I was like, no shît… :rolleyes:

Cuz she had short hair and shares her first name with a famous lesbian?

Arbiter of Good Taste

Friend Computer wrote: »

I'm going to quote someone who, I feel, sums up nicely why there's such a big deal about it.

True, to a certain extent. As a straight, recently married woman, my experience is those people who are going to be uncomfortable with gay people are going to be uncomfortable with anyone who doesn't fit into their definition of societal norm - married by 30, 2+ children.

I'm sick and tired, for so many years, being asked by virtual strangers, whether I had children, and having the conversation completely die when I say no. Like WTF?

So someone who barely registers with most of us comes out and it's a big deal? To be honest I really couldn't care less.

Nemeses

The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't come down to some form of display.

Your either gay or our straight or whatever. So be it.

padd b1975

mad muffin wrote: »

Ellen Page coming out is the same as Liberace coming out.

I was like, no shît… :rolleyes:

He never 'came out'.

It appears he was quite prickly (ohhh matron!) towards any media outlets who may have hinted as to his gayness.
Won a couple of legal battles according to wiki.:cool:

Friend Computer

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

True, to a certain extent. As a straight, recently married woman, my experience is those people who are going to be uncomfortable with gay people are going to be uncomfortable with anyone who doesn't fit into their definition of societal norm - married by 30, 2+ children.

I'm sick and tired, for so many years, being asked by virtual strangers, whether I had children, and having the conversation completely die when I say no. Like WTF?

So someone who barely registers with most of us comes out and it's a big deal? To be honest I really couldn't care less.

Nemeses wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't come down to some form of display.

Your either gay or our straight or whatever. So be it.

In the case of celebrities (Ellen Page is a Canadian actress and Michael Sam an American Footballer)... well, they're celebrities so the media is naturally going to make a big deal out of it, just as they do about anything.

It's very disingenuous to brush it off as some no-name person being made a big deal of; just because these people aren't famous in Ireland or in the circles you move in doesn't mean they're not famous anywhere else in the world.

And if you really don't care then why are you even commenting on the thread instead of just ignoring it?

How Soon Is Now

Nemeses wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't come down to some form of display.

Your either gay or our straight or whatever. So be it.

As far as im concerned the best possible way to let people know who u are would be to just be urself ffs.

Why does it need to be announced for the world to see and hear if u feel that strongly about it u just get on with your life?

''Coming out'' in Hollywood now means shes some sort of hero role model and will be classed as gay actress Ellen Paige etc etc. In fairness its an assist to your career i mean look at the other famous Ellen over there who lets face it would be just another day time chat show host if she wasnt gay.

I think if i wanted to be respected and treated as equal id just get on with my life and not label myself the biggest statement someone could make would be to ignore the people against them and just go along as u want.

I really admire people who dont have to tell the world who or what they are they just go along with it make a life for themselfs there not known for there color there sex or which way they swing there known for them as a person and really at end of the day its no ones business how they live there lifes. That as far as im concerned is the ultimate statement.

mad muffin

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Cuz she had short hair and shares her first name with a famous lesbian?

No. It was the way she ran in X-Men 3.

mad muffin

padd b1975 wrote: »

He never 'came out'.

It appears he was quite prickly (ohhh matron!) towards any media outlets who may have hinted as to his gayness.
Won a couple of legal battles according to wiki.:cool:

I know he didn't. But if he were, I doubt anyone would have said, oh really? I'd never have known.

Friend Computer

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

As far as im concerned the best possible way to let people know who u are would be to just be urself ffs.

Why does it need to be announced for the world to see and hear if u feel that strongly about it u just get on with your life?

[...]

I really admire people who dont have to tell the world who or what they are they just go along with it make a life for themselfs there not known for there color there sex or which way they swing there known for them as a person and really at end of the day its no ones business how they live there lifes. That as far as im concerned is the ultimate statement.

Coming out is not about sexuality it’s about security. It is very difficult to hide your orientation forever. Closeted queers need to know that the people in their lives will accept them because their future depends on it. People will find out. And it’s very hard to get on with life when you know that, at any moment, everything can fall apart. That is why coming out is important.

Somehow I feel like I'm going to have to keep reposting this for anyone to actually read and, more importantly, understand it.

Czarcasm

evil_seed wrote: »

I've just had a discussion with my brother. In the recent stories of Michael Sam and Ellen Page I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made of gay people coming out? I don't get it. Why are they seen as inspiration? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

No OP you're not ignorant. 'Ignorant' is an easy word to throw around nowadays when somebody simply doesn't give a shìt about something in the same way someone else does. I consider myself well informed on LGBT issues, but I know fannyadams about football, so some football thug can call me ignorant and I'm supposed to take them seriously? It's the same with someone who doesn't give a fiddlers about LGBT issues. It doesn't mean they're ignorant, it just means they don't give a shìt. So when some Z-list celeb needs a career boost, ah sure come out as gay, lesbian, whatever, not like you'll ever have to deal with actual homophobia in your glass bubble, but it increases ratings and gets bums on seats.

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Because homophobia is still rife worldwide.

You might have a point if we were to roll back the clock 200 years, but societies world wide have come a long way in that time, and before you say "but Russia, Gambia...", the Russian and Gambian Governments are not the Russian and Gambian people. It'd be like saying the Irish Government represent and reflect the views of the Irish people... Do they? Do they really?

I think not, and no amount of Z-listers looking to revive their flagging careers is going to make any difference whatsoever in the mind of a person who doesn't even care enough to know who these people are.

Earthhorse

Czarcasm wrote: »

No OP you're not ignorant. 'Ignorant' is an easy word to throw around nowadays when somebody simply doesn't give a shìt about something in the same way someone else does. I consider myself well informed on LGBT issues, but I know fannyadams about football, so some football thug can call me ignorant and I'm supposed to take them seriously?

Can you give a scenario in which it would be appropriate to describe someone or their beliefs as ignorant so?

Femme_Fatale

Earthhorse wrote: »

Can you give a scenario in which it would be appropriate to describe someone or their beliefs as ignorant so?

I know you didn't ask me, but screw you!

I'd only use the term "ignorant" to apply to someone who doesn't know enough about something yet gives their tuppence-worth anyway, incorrect and inaccurate as it is.
It's not always a negative description either.

I guess it does apply to the OP, but I'd prefer to use a term like "unaware" since the meaning of "ignorant" has become so distorted. Plus, some of what the OP says is not untrue. Some people seem to think "ignorant" just means "being an asshole".

Nemeses

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

As far as im concerned the best possible way to let people know who u are would be to just be urself ffs.

Why does it need to be announced for the world to see and hear if u feel that strongly about it u just get on with your life?

'

That was the general point I was trying to make...

Friend Computer

I suppose I should say that I don't consider you ignorant, OP, at least not in the pejorative sense that it tends to be used. Someone mentioned the word "naive" which is probably a better term as it isn't as loaded but even then it has certain unpleasant connotations.

The reason I posted my quote earlier was because it serves as a good explanation for straight people as to why coming out is a big deal; as it says, if you're straight then you don't have to deal with those issues and sp no one can fault you for not being aware of them.

What I said wasn't to chastise but to elucidate. It is a big issue for gay people, not because we want it to be a big deal but because the people in our lives make it one. People we, as all humans inextricably do, rely on; friends, family.

And part of the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I'm still closeted. I can't tell the people in my life these things because I know they'd react badly, they'd disown me. People I love and care about, despite knowing how they'd treat me.

So please, to those of you who snidely insist this is all some attention-seeking grab: consider that we can and do face ill consequences for our sexuality being known. That sometimes famous people come out not to big up their flagging careers but because it gives hope to those still in the closet, that the people dear to them will see we exist in all walks of life.

keeponhurling

Friend Computer wrote: »

Ellen Page is a Canadian actress and Michael Sam an American Footballer)...

thanks, I was reading through the thread wondering I am the ignorant one not knowing who they are.
I'm satisfied I'm not.

Anyways, I wonder at what stage will this stop being news worthy.

Especially the actress above, aren't there loads of gay actors and actresses?
Not sure her coming out will exactly give the gay rights movement worldwide much if a boost

Czarcasm

Earthhorse wrote: »

Can you give a scenario in which it would be appropriate to describe someone or their beliefs as ignorant so?

I can't really Earthhorse tbh, because I respect other people's right not to give a shìt about things I'm interested in or passionate about (my wife has no interest in technology and I don't call her ignorant)...

Ohh there's a good example actually -

My wife watches "Glee". There's a gay character in it. Now she thinks that I wouldn't watch Glee because there's a gay character in it, despite the fact I've told her already that I don't watch it because Glee is nothing but a glorified sparkly ball of saccharine injected shìte. It suits her to think I must have an issue with it because her brother is gay and she feels this gives her some particular enlightenment.

Yet when I invited her with me to the Pride festival/carnival/parade... The idea of men dressed up as some fine-ass looking women or the idea that she would have to meet transgendered persons in real life, it was one of those things where idealism doesn't match up with reality and she felt very uncomfortable about the whole thing.

It's one thing if you're going to call people ignorant because they don't care as much about an issue as much as you do, but if you're then going to be picky and choosy about who you associate with based on that prejudice, you really shouldn't be surprised when it comes back to bite you in the ass (well, metaphorically speaking at least anyway! ).

Arbiter of Good Taste

Friend Computer wrote: »

In the case of celebrities (Ellen Page is a Canadian actress and Michael Sam an American Footballer)... well, they're celebrities so the media is naturally going to make a big deal out of it, just as they do about anything.

It's very disingenuous to brush it off as some no-name person being made a big deal of; just because these people aren't famous in Ireland or in the circles you move in doesn't mean they're not famous anywhere else in the world.

And if you really don't care then why are you even commenting on the thread instead of just ignoring it?

Wow, you're very sensitive. I know exactly who these people are. I just don't place the same importance in "celebrity" as you clearly do. Nevertheless, I am still entitled to my opinion.

I have more respect for someone like Rory O'Neill, who does have a lot more to lose by speaking out so openly in a small city like Dublin.

Knight who says Meh

evil_seed wrote: »

I've just had a discussion with my brother. In the recent stories of Michael Sam and Ellen Page I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made of gay people coming out? I don't get it. Why are they seen as inspiration? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

I just had a discussion with a friend. In recent social media sites I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made when people feel they need to come out. I don't get it. If it doesn't matter to you in the slightest why do some feel the need to post about it? Why all the fuss?

MagicMarker

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I have more respect for someone like Rory O'Neill, who does have a lot more to lose by speaking out so openly in a small city like Dublin.

I didn't realise coming out was a competition.

Arbiter of Good Taste

I never said it was. No need for petty sarcasm

The point I'm making is that certain posters seem to feel that unless we are falling over in admiration for a couple of cosseted celebrities who have come out with probably very little impact on their life or livelihood, than we are ignorant.

I'm saying, there are braver people out there doing much more.