Am I just ignorant?

Femme_Fatale · 15-02-2014 03:03PM

mad muffin wrote: »

Ellen Page coming out is the same as Liberace coming out.

I was like, no shît… :rolleyes:

Cuz she had short hair and shares her first name with a famous lesbian?

Arbiter of Good Taste · 15-02-2014 03:08PM

Friend Computer wrote: »

I'm going to quote someone who, I feel, sums up nicely why there's such a big deal about it.

True, to a certain extent. As a straight, recently married woman, my experience is those people who are going to be uncomfortable with gay people are going to be uncomfortable with anyone who doesn't fit into their definition of societal norm - married by 30, 2+ children.

I'm sick and tired, for so many years, being asked by virtual strangers, whether I had children, and having the conversation completely die when I say no. Like WTF?

So someone who barely registers with most of us comes out and it's a big deal? To be honest I really couldn't care less.

Nemeses · 15-02-2014 03:09PM

The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't come down to some form of display.

Your either gay or our straight or whatever. So be it.

padd b1975 · 15-02-2014 03:10PM

mad muffin wrote: »

Ellen Page coming out is the same as Liberace coming out.

I was like, no shît… :rolleyes:

He never 'came out'.

It appears he was quite prickly (ohhh matron!) towards any media outlets who may have hinted as to his gayness.
Won a couple of legal battles according to wiki.:cool:

Friend Computer · 15-02-2014 03:15PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

True, to a certain extent. As a straight, recently married woman, my experience is those people who are going to be uncomfortable with gay people are going to be uncomfortable with anyone who doesn't fit into their definition of societal norm - married by 30, 2+ children.

I'm sick and tired, for so many years, being asked by virtual strangers, whether I had children, and having the conversation completely die when I say no. Like WTF?

So someone who barely registers with most of us comes out and it's a big deal? To be honest I really couldn't care less.

Nemeses wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't come down to some form of display.

Your either gay or our straight or whatever. So be it.

In the case of celebrities (Ellen Page is a Canadian actress and Michael Sam an American Footballer)... well, they're celebrities so the media is naturally going to make a big deal out of it, just as they do about anything.

It's very disingenuous to brush it off as some no-name person being made a big deal of; just because these people aren't famous in Ireland or in the circles you move in doesn't mean they're not famous anywhere else in the world.

And if you really don't care then why are you even commenting on the thread instead of just ignoring it?

How Soon Is Now · 15-02-2014 03:16PM

Nemeses wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't come down to some form of display.

Your either gay or our straight or whatever. So be it.

As far as im concerned the best possible way to let people know who u are would be to just be urself ffs.

Why does it need to be announced for the world to see and hear if u feel that strongly about it u just get on with your life?

''Coming out'' in Hollywood now means shes some sort of hero role model and will be classed as gay actress Ellen Paige etc etc. In fairness its an assist to your career i mean look at the other famous Ellen over there who lets face it would be just another day time chat show host if she wasnt gay.

I think if i wanted to be respected and treated as equal id just get on with my life and not label myself the biggest statement someone could make would be to ignore the people against them and just go along as u want.

I really admire people who dont have to tell the world who or what they are they just go along with it make a life for themselfs there not known for there color there sex or which way they swing there known for them as a person and really at end of the day its no ones business how they live there lifes. That as far as im concerned is the ultimate statement.

mad muffin · 15-02-2014 03:21PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Cuz she had short hair and shares her first name with a famous lesbian?

No. It was the way she ran in X-Men 3.

mad muffin · 15-02-2014 03:22PM

padd b1975 wrote: »

He never 'came out'.

It appears he was quite prickly (ohhh matron!) towards any media outlets who may have hinted as to his gayness.
Won a couple of legal battles according to wiki.:cool:

I know he didn't. But if he were, I doubt anyone would have said, oh really? I'd never have known.

Friend Computer · 15-02-2014 03:29PM

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

As far as im concerned the best possible way to let people know who u are would be to just be urself ffs.

Why does it need to be announced for the world to see and hear if u feel that strongly about it u just get on with your life?

[...]

I really admire people who dont have to tell the world who or what they are they just go along with it make a life for themselfs there not known for there color there sex or which way they swing there known for them as a person and really at end of the day its no ones business how they live there lifes. That as far as im concerned is the ultimate statement.

Coming out is not about sexuality it’s about security. It is very difficult to hide your orientation forever. Closeted queers need to know that the people in their lives will accept them because their future depends on it. People will find out. And it’s very hard to get on with life when you know that, at any moment, everything can fall apart. That is why coming out is important.

Somehow I feel like I'm going to have to keep reposting this for anyone to actually read and, more importantly, understand it.

Czarcasm · 15-02-2014 03:33PM

evil_seed wrote: »

I've just had a discussion with my brother. In the recent stories of Michael Sam and Ellen Page I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made of gay people coming out? I don't get it. Why are they seen as inspiration? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

No OP you're not ignorant. 'Ignorant' is an easy word to throw around nowadays when somebody simply doesn't give a shìt about something in the same way someone else does. I consider myself well informed on LGBT issues, but I know fannyadams about football, so some football thug can call me ignorant and I'm supposed to take them seriously? It's the same with someone who doesn't give a fiddlers about LGBT issues. It doesn't mean they're ignorant, it just means they don't give a shìt. So when some Z-list celeb needs a career boost, ah sure come out as gay, lesbian, whatever, not like you'll ever have to deal with actual homophobia in your glass bubble, but it increases ratings and gets bums on seats.

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Because homophobia is still rife worldwide.

You might have a point if we were to roll back the clock 200 years, but societies world wide have come a long way in that time, and before you say "but Russia, Gambia...", the Russian and Gambian Governments are not the Russian and Gambian people. It'd be like saying the Irish Government represent and reflect the views of the Irish people... Do they? Do they really?

I think not, and no amount of Z-listers looking to revive their flagging careers is going to make any difference whatsoever in the mind of a person who doesn't even care enough to know who these people are.

Earthhorse · 15-02-2014 03:37PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

No OP you're not ignorant. 'Ignorant' is an easy word to throw around nowadays when somebody simply doesn't give a shìt about something in the same way someone else does. I consider myself well informed on LGBT issues, but I know fannyadams about football, so some football thug can call me ignorant and I'm supposed to take them seriously?

Can you give a scenario in which it would be appropriate to describe someone or their beliefs as ignorant so?

Femme_Fatale · 15-02-2014 03:41PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

Can you give a scenario in which it would be appropriate to describe someone or their beliefs as ignorant so?

I know you didn't ask me, but screw you!

I'd only use the term "ignorant" to apply to someone who doesn't know enough about something yet gives their tuppence-worth anyway, incorrect and inaccurate as it is.
It's not always a negative description either.

I guess it does apply to the OP, but I'd prefer to use a term like "unaware" since the meaning of "ignorant" has become so distorted. Plus, some of what the OP says is not untrue. Some people seem to think "ignorant" just means "being an asshole".

Nemeses · 15-02-2014 03:49PM

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

As far as im concerned the best possible way to let people know who u are would be to just be urself ffs.

Why does it need to be announced for the world to see and hear if u feel that strongly about it u just get on with your life?

'

That was the general point I was trying to make...

Friend Computer · 15-02-2014 03:52PM

I suppose I should say that I don't consider you ignorant, OP, at least not in the pejorative sense that it tends to be used. Someone mentioned the word "naive" which is probably a better term as it isn't as loaded but even then it has certain unpleasant connotations.

The reason I posted my quote earlier was because it serves as a good explanation for straight people as to why coming out is a big deal; as it says, if you're straight then you don't have to deal with those issues and sp no one can fault you for not being aware of them.

What I said wasn't to chastise but to elucidate. It is a big issue for gay people, not because we want it to be a big deal but because the people in our lives make it one. People we, as all humans inextricably do, rely on; friends, family.

And part of the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I'm still closeted. I can't tell the people in my life these things because I know they'd react badly, they'd disown me. People I love and care about, despite knowing how they'd treat me.

So please, to those of you who snidely insist this is all some attention-seeking grab: consider that we can and do face ill consequences for our sexuality being known. That sometimes famous people come out not to big up their flagging careers but because it gives hope to those still in the closet, that the people dear to them will see we exist in all walks of life.

keeponhurling · 15-02-2014 03:55PM

Friend Computer wrote: »

Ellen Page is a Canadian actress and Michael Sam an American Footballer)...

thanks, I was reading through the thread wondering I am the ignorant one not knowing who they are.
I'm satisfied I'm not.

Anyways, I wonder at what stage will this stop being news worthy.

Especially the actress above, aren't there loads of gay actors and actresses?
Not sure her coming out will exactly give the gay rights movement worldwide much if a boost

Czarcasm · 15-02-2014 03:57PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

Can you give a scenario in which it would be appropriate to describe someone or their beliefs as ignorant so?

I can't really Earthhorse tbh, because I respect other people's right not to give a shìt about things I'm interested in or passionate about (my wife has no interest in technology and I don't call her ignorant)...

Ohh there's a good example actually -

My wife watches "Glee". There's a gay character in it. Now she thinks that I wouldn't watch Glee because there's a gay character in it, despite the fact I've told her already that I don't watch it because Glee is nothing but a glorified sparkly ball of saccharine injected shìte. It suits her to think I must have an issue with it because her brother is gay and she feels this gives her some particular enlightenment.

Yet when I invited her with me to the Pride festival/carnival/parade... The idea of men dressed up as some fine-ass looking women or the idea that she would have to meet transgendered persons in real life, it was one of those things where idealism doesn't match up with reality and she felt very uncomfortable about the whole thing.

It's one thing if you're going to call people ignorant because they don't care as much about an issue as much as you do, but if you're then going to be picky and choosy about who you associate with based on that prejudice, you really shouldn't be surprised when it comes back to bite you in the ass (well, metaphorically speaking at least anyway!

).

Arbiter of Good Taste · 15-02-2014 04:07PM

Friend Computer wrote: »

In the case of celebrities (Ellen Page is a Canadian actress and Michael Sam an American Footballer)... well, they're celebrities so the media is naturally going to make a big deal out of it, just as they do about anything.

It's very disingenuous to brush it off as some no-name person being made a big deal of; just because these people aren't famous in Ireland or in the circles you move in doesn't mean they're not famous anywhere else in the world.

And if you really don't care then why are you even commenting on the thread instead of just ignoring it?

Wow, you're very sensitive. I know exactly who these people are. I just don't place the same importance in "celebrity" as you clearly do. Nevertheless, I am still entitled to my opinion.

I have more respect for someone like Rory O'Neill, who does have a lot more to lose by speaking out so openly in a small city like Dublin.

Knight who says Meh · 15-02-2014 04:08PM

evil_seed wrote: »

I've just had a discussion with my brother. In the recent stories of Michael Sam and Ellen Page I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made of gay people coming out? I don't get it. Why are they seen as inspiration? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

I just had a discussion with a friend. In recent social media sites I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made when people feel they need to come out. I don't get it. If it doesn't matter to you in the slightest why do some feel the need to post about it? Why all the fuss?

MagicMarker · 15-02-2014 04:11PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I have more respect for someone like Rory O'Neill, who does have a lot more to lose by speaking out so openly in a small city like Dublin.

I didn't realise coming out was a competition.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 15-02-2014 04:20PM

I never said it was. No need for petty sarcasm

The point I'm making is that certain posters seem to feel that unless we are falling over in admiration for a couple of cosseted celebrities who have come out with probably very little impact on their life or livelihood, than we are ignorant.

I'm saying, there are braver people out there doing much more.

Friend Computer · 15-02-2014 04:24PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Wow, you're very sensitive.

Thank you, I like to think I'm capable of expressing the basic human concept of empathy.

I know exactly who these people are. I just don't place the same importance in "celebrity" as you clearly do.

I don't place any importance on celebrity, I just understand that for other people it can make a difference. But then I suppose again, that's just me with my stupid old empathy and ability to understand other people.

Nevertheless, I am still entitled to my opinion.

What does this even mean? Are you trying to say your opinion is some kind of sacred cow that is, somehow, above criticism? Honestly, I'm baffled whenever I see this phrase used.

Dearie me, for someone who thinks I'm sensitive you're getting awfully precious yourself there.

Czarcasm · 15-02-2014 04:28PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

I didn't realise coming out was a competition.

It IS a competition though when you have people saying the more "high profile" people that come out, the more courage it'll give to people who are not in "high profile" positions in society, people like Anto, the shellsuit wearing "hard man" who likes to keep two "birds" on the go when really all he wants to do is find a bear to take care of him...

How in the fcuk is Ellen Pages big announcement going to make it easier for him to "come out"? It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, because their realities and their circumstances are two completely different scenarios and dynamics - Anto has relatively speaking a lot more to lose than Ellen Page, so, competition?

You bet it fcuking is, and pressure, and stress, on those who just don't want to "come out of the closet" and don't want to make a big deal of their sexuality nor let it define them, but just want to get on with their lives and "fit in" like they see "everyone else fit in". They don't need nor want people to speak for them or on their behalf.

Anto has to go back to his council flat while Ellen pisses off in her chauffeur driven limousine. Anto's a low-life scumbag while Ellen's a media dahling. Now who do you think really has more to lose?

Still think it's not a competition?

FreshKnickers · 15-02-2014 04:32PM

In the fullness of time people will come out as being straight. Especially if they worry that people will assume they are gay, for some reason.

At the moment gay people come out as gay because the general public tend to assume people are straight.

I always thought Patrick Stewart was gay. Only this year found out he wasn't. I was actually surprised but sure, gay, straight or indifferent, doesn't change how I see the bloke. I don't generally go around thinking 'Wonder what positions that actor likes to get into in the sack.' So, doesn't matter really.

MagicMarker · 15-02-2014 04:38PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

The point I'm making is that certain posters seem to feel that unless we are falling over in admiration for a couple of cosseted celebrities who have come out with probably very little impact on their life or livelihood, than we are ignorant.

Which certain posters are saying this? Quotes please.

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I'm saying, there are braver people out there doing much more.

Michael Sam could have waited until after the draft before coming out, he didn't, and that may actually impact on his career because some teams may not want to draft a gay player if they think it may upset the locker room. Terrell Thomas of the Giants has, while admitting it was courageous of Sams to come out, also admitted that he thinks being gay is a sin and he doesn't respect it.

You say it's not a competition but yet you can't help referring to it as such when you say other people are MORE brave.

keeponhurling · 15-02-2014 04:44PM

ironically, if somebody came out and announced they were heterosexual, suspicion of them being gay would probably increase

MagicMarker · 15-02-2014 04:49PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It IS a competition though when you have people saying the more "high profile" people that come out, the more courage it'll give to people who are not in "high profile" positions in society, people like Anto, the shellsuit wearing "hard man" who likes to keep two "birds" on the go when really all he wants to do is find a bear to take care of him...

How in the fcuk is Ellen Pages big announcement going to make it easier for him to "come out"? It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, because their realities and their circumstances are two completely different scenarios and dynamics - Anto has relatively speaking a lot more to lose than Ellen Page, so, competition?

You bet it fcuking is, and pressure, and stress, on those who just don't want to "come out of the closet" and don't want to make a big deal of their sexuality nor let it define them, but just want to get on with their lives and "fit in" like they see "everyone else fit in". They don't need nor want people to speak for them or on their behalf.

Anto has to go back to his council flat while Ellen pisses off in her chauffeur driven limousine. Anto's a low-life scumbag while Ellen's a media dahling. Now who do you think really has more to lose?

Still think it's not a competition?

No, it's not a competition.

What people are saying is that people in the public sphere who embrace who they are in the face of adversity and ostracisation can (not always and not to everyone) inspire others to do the same. Competition does not enter the equation.

If you deny this then you deny fact.

Case in point: Tom Daley inspires England defender Casey Stoney to come out as gay.

MagicMarker · 15-02-2014 04:54PM

Jesus, I just found out that Ellen Page came out at a conference for LGBT Teenagers hosted by the Human Rights Campaign.

And people are still wondering WHY????? It's fairly fúcking self evident.

15-02-2014 04:57PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I have more respect for someone like Rory O'Neill, who does have a lot more to lose by speaking out so openly in a small city like Dublin.

The fact that he is a drag queen on a stage posting videos to youtube, with 21 thousand followers on twitter interviews on RTE and on the radio. Yes he is really taking a chance :rolleyes:
He grabbed an opportunity by misrepresenting Dublin as an oppressive place for Homosexual people and using examples of which straight people fall victim to also to create this facade. I see his followers and bookings have gone up also.

jill_valentine · 15-02-2014 04:57PM

People can all say "they knew", but up until recently, It was reported as gospel truth that she was having Alexander Skarsgard's baby...

It's important for young people in particular to see folks "like them", who are cool and successful. Straight people wondering what the big deal is should ask some of the young gay girls for whom it is. You guys get to take it for granted that a spectrum of people you can relate to will be represented from your fairytales as a kid to your gritty 18+ action movies, but they don't. Stuff like this matters because it leaves them a little less isolated from their own pop culture, it's a big deal to realise there's room for you after all in Hollywood or anywhere else.

The fact that it reminds the slightly more... Sheltered... Among us that gay people are part of their world too, despite their best efforts to pretend they aren't, is just a bonus.

BTW, you say it's not a big deal, but if that were true she wouldn't be basically the first in her position and generation do so.

Mike747 · 15-02-2014 05:00PM

No op you're not ignorant, ignore those trying to shame you because you don't care. I'm the same, it makes no difference to me if some football player or actress comes out.

Am I just ignorant?

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