Disturbing 999 call in Cork

pwurple · 13-02-2014 11:56pm

crackcrack30 wrote: »

With modern tec you could probably automatically link on screen a persons landline to their post code.... not sure about linking a mobile to co-ordinates?

You can link a mobile to a 'cell' location extremely easily. It works better than landlines. The cells are bigger in rural areas, better fix in urban.

twowheelsonly · 14-02-2014 2:20am

If Taxis can do it I don't see why the emergency services can't be supplied with the same technology.

I can ring/text or book a taxi on an app on my phone, giving just my address, check the status of where he is at any time and when he arrives outside he presses a button and I get a text to say he's arrived. 99.99% of the time they get it right.

Loc8 codes would be ideal if they were most widespread but they don't seem to have taken off.

An earlier link says that the call was passed to the NAS. Why wasn't it passed to the Fire Service regardless of what the caller may have asked for? Surely 'person in the river' would merit that??

chinacup · 14-02-2014 2:42am

dave1982 wrote: »

This is floating round facebook, guy called 999 for help with man in river Lee.

I don't know the guy so not 100% how true it is but

https://www.facebook.com/steve.ish.1/posts/10152225296369785

For those not on facebook.

I

had the same problem ringing an ambulance for a woman recently who took a bad fall. I explained exactly with about 5 landmarks where I was- any galway person would have known the spot and it was 10mins away from the hospital so they would have known. Yet she had me walk around asking people the street name for about 5mins before sending one out, leaving the old woman on her own which wasn't ideal. And I found her calmness infuriating not reassuring!

Bang Bang · 14-02-2014 12:32pm

arf91 wrote: »

Yet she had me walk around asking people the street name for about 5mins before sending one out,

The call taker does not respond the ambulance, the dispatcher responds the ambulance and even though you had not given the address of where you were the dispatcher would still respond a resource to the general area whilst the call taker tried to get more accurate information from you. But this has all been mentioned in this thread so I wonder just how much of it did you read, or did you just drop in at the end to add your negative, inaccurate input?

chinacup · 14-02-2014 6:39pm

Bang Bang wrote: »

The call taker does not respond the ambulance, the dispatcher responds the ambulance and even though you had not given the address of where you were the dispatcher would still respond a resource to the general area whilst the call taker tried to get more accurate information from you. But this has all been mentioned in this thread so I wonder just how much of it did you read, or did you just drop in at the end to add your negative, inaccurate input?

Why are you so sensitive about this? I didn't read the whole thread no so I didn't see that part. She also said to me "I can't be sure I can help you until I have a street address" so to me that suggessted she couldn't send an ambulance until she got the exact address. Either way it was a frustrating call and how dare you take that tone with me! Take your agression elsewhere please! I have nothing against people in the emergency services personally but this isn't the first time I've had a bad experience when calling an ambulance. The last time being when it took 40mins to get to a location 10mins away for a fatal overdose (my friend died) and my faith in them hasn't been strong since. That was over 5 years ago so maybe things are better now but the ridiculousness of her asking to find out the street name and leave the woman on her own makes me think there's room for improvement.

Bang Bang · 14-02-2014 7:34pm

arf91 wrote: »

Why are you so sensitive about this? I didn't read the whole thread no so I didn't see that part. She also said to me "I can't be sure I can help you until I have a street address" so to me that suggessted she couldn't send an ambulance until she got the exact address. Either way it was a frustrating call and how dare you take that tone with me! Take your agression elsewhere please! I have nothing against people in the emergency services personally but this isn't the first time I've had a bad experience when calling an ambulance. The last time being when it took 40mins to get to a location 10mins away for a fatal overdose (my friend died) and my faith in them hasn't been strong since. That was over 5 years ago so maybe things are better now but the ridiculousness of her asking to find out the street name and leave the woman on her own makes me think there's room for improvement.

Firstly, I am far from sensitive and certainly am not being sensitive in this thread.

Secondly and most importantly for me, please point out where I am being aggressive, because I am far from aggressive. No need to apologise and please do not make accusations against me again.

Thirdly, if you had of read the thread you would have learned how important the need for exact locations and how the system works regarding the call taker and dispatcher duties.

You then tell us how you experienced a long wait for an ambulance in the past then go on to state that it is ridiculous for the call taker to ask you the name of the street where an ambulance is required!!

chinacup · 14-02-2014 9:56pm

Bang Bang wrote: »

Firstly, I am far from sensitive and certainly am not being sensitive in this thread.

Secondly and most importantly for me, please point out where I am being aggressive, because I am far from aggressive. No need to apologise and please do not make accusations against me again.

Thirdly, if you had of read the thread you would have learned how important the need for exact locations and how the system works regarding the call taker and dispatcher duties.

You then tell us how you experienced a long wait for an ambulance in the past then go on to state that it is ridiculous for the call taker to ask you the name of the street where an ambulance is required!!

There was no issue with finding the address, the ambulance had never received the message first time your now making presumptions. You were being aggressive its very clear to see that from the last line of your post. I understand the importance of getting the exact location neither of which were a valid point in the two incidents I was involved in! The first time there was a problem with the system somehow-never found out why- in that the ambulance never got the original message and in the second instance the person on call was slow and had me leave the injured woman who was going in and out of consciousness while sitting up - I said this to her on the phone and was worried she would fall but she insisted I go and ask someone the street name. If I had come back and shed fallen again, which was very possible, there would have been a real issue.

In both of these cases it was frustrating and the best course of action wasn't taken these are my points!

cyclops999 · 14-02-2014 10:14pm

3 Call centres in the in the Country CAMP West located in Castlebar, Camp East in Dublin & Munster located in Limerick for 999 calls for Fire Service. I know of incidents where call centres have called the wrong brigades, to incidents that are not even in the province. Post codes are essential and urgently required for emergency services.

19hz · 22-02-2014 3:19am

hfallada wrote: »

This call is the reason was postcodes. A postcode would help emergency services with the fact there is several towns in Ireland with same name across dozens of countries. His many o connell streets in Ireland?

But you have to question why the operator didn't get the help of someone who knew cork

Plenty of people make phone calls from area's they don't live in, therefore they won't know the post code, at most they'll know the start of the post code but that's the same as saying Cork City really.

Think_then_talk wrote: »

As far as I can recall 999/112 don't need a post code or an address of the caller they use Gps.

I know they do this in the UK for sure, I'd imagine it's here too.

dobman88 wrote: »

Maybe localised call centres but that costs money :rolleyes:

I think the old system of being put through to the local fire/amb/garda station was great, locals talking to locals who knew the areas.

Thoie wrote: »

It's been 112 for a billion years (at least 10). 999 was unique to UK and Ireland. It runs in parallel with 112 (the all-Europe number) because, as you've demonstrated nicely, Irish/UK people don't seem to have paid attention to the transition campaign they ran.

I'm not sure if it's true, but I heard there were talks to introduce 911 as a third emergency number here, because so many people are used to watching American TV and hearing "Call 911" that they were trying to use it here. <-- Not true!

I always thought 911, 112, 999, 000, 311, 119 etc etc along with others all re-direct to the emergency call centers?

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Bog standard GPS installed in ambulances would cause more problems than it would solve, there is no time for data entry by ambulance personel not to mention meeting time targets for mobile to scenes ect.

Stop, takes seconds to input gps or postcodes to a sat nav, especially if your at it on a daily basis.
Also, UK have systems where once you accept the job the gps automatically starts navigating you to the call..

Thoie · 22-02-2014 3:24am

19hz wrote: »

I always thought 911, 112, 999, 000, 311, 119 etc etc along with others all re-direct to the emergency call centers?

Someone in the know went to great pains to explain that this wasn't the case. I struck out my original comment in an effort to stop propagating the myth, as it could cost someone in an emergency. The only numbers to use in Ireland are 112 or 999.

19hz · 22-02-2014 4:43pm

Thoie wrote: »

Someone in the know went to great pains to explain that this wasn't the case. I struck out my original comment in an effort to stop propagating the myth, as it could cost someone in an emergency. The only numbers to use in Ireland are 112 or 999.

Relax, I read the whole thread and "thanked" his post before I posted this, just mentioning it the same way I would in conversation i.e. "oh I always thought blah blah blah"

Thoie · 22-02-2014 5:04pm

I absolutely refuse to relax, I will never relazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wait, what was I saying?

You've read the whole thread, but was just pointing it out for the benefit of anyone who comes along behind you and sees your post and decides to fall off a cliff while dialling 000 or something.

darthemar · 23-02-2014 4:57am

Personally I feel the system is a good concept, however the infrastructure in place does not assist the system. Before I continue yes I have read the thread. Currently the centralised system is great, however you need a integration of emergency personal within the one compound. This then allows for a integrated by everyone involved easily. Ie NAS can Talk to fire service etc, which is a problem at the moment. I'm currently involved in the UK and have been placed in a control centre for 2 week.

The system is great when it works. However it has created uncertainty with the public prospective. Centralising everything allows for cost saving measures which are then related to the upgrading of the call centres to one of the most modern in the EU. The problem is that local knowledge is different then a computers knowledge. Problems also arise and I feel this is the major problem regarding ambulance location and directions

Current system is ambulances have not gps or computerised system within the ambulance. As 19hz the UK has this system and has been prove countlessly to work effectively. In ireland. You make a call, ambulance needs to get to the address. Dispatcher directs the ambulance to location via a GPS tracker that is fitted on the ambulance that can tell the location of the ambulance via the national road network maps. This results in a false economy. Relocation to centralised location positive however resource of staff are then been taken up in order to direct an ambulance to a location. This then puts pressure on on call taker to get the exact location as the dispatcher will have to figure out where it is and then relate that to the crew and direct them

The system regarding this issue stems for frontline and this relates with a knock on effect. Ideally it should be perfect however resources and money are not there. Currently a new recruitment drive has lead to an influx of new staff, with a new system. It is said also that more are to be expected due to the current student paramedic drive has and will lead to a loss in some of these trained personnel and this I turn will result in more people been new and inexperienced personal which will require a grace period.

The system is going to work in due course however there are current teething problem which are been rectified. However we are arguing a battle that is a the forefront of the NAS problem. As previously stated problem originates main with the vehicle themselves.

RainyDay · 24-02-2014 12:38pm

This is what happens with no GPS, and no local knowledge;

http://droghedalife.com/791/66297/a/munster-hits-out-at-ambulance-delays-as-child-left-waiting-40-minutes

DFBLT · 25-02-2014 9:01pm

No, thats what happens when a town the size of Drogheda has only 1 ambulance. It's got nothing to do with GPS or Postcodes and everthing to do with cutbacks in the National Ambulance service and the spin put out by NAS managers that "dynamic deployment" i.e. moving ambulances around to plug gaps in the system, caused by a lack of resources, is the answer to everything.

pwurple · 25-02-2014 9:13pm

It is all cutbacks, but even the cutbacks are done in an idiotic way.

I have a friend whose 4 year old boy was left an hour waiting for an ambulance in a very serious condition. The rapid response unit was there within a few minutes, and after 40 minutes of being unable to get an ambulance, a helicopter set off from waterford (the call was in cork). All ambulances in area were out on calls. At one point both an ambulance and a helicopter were on the way... Ambulance made it just 3 minutes ahead, on the hour mark.

Now, can you imagine the cost involved in that event? Can anyone show me the savings, or even the logic of having such a shortage of ambulances that you have to rely on a much more expensive helicopter? I really don't see it.

RainyDay · 26-02-2014 10:10am

DFBLT wrote: »

No, thats what happens when a town the size of Drogheda has only 1 ambulance. It's got nothing to do with GPS or Postcodes and everthing to do with cutbacks in the National Ambulance service and the spin put out by NAS managers that "dynamic deployment" i.e. moving ambulances around to plug gaps in the system, caused by a lack of resources, is the answer to everything.

I'm not unsympathetic to your cause, but can you explain how having 1 ambulance leads to an ambulance going to the wrong school?

Tango Alpha 51 · 26-02-2014 4:51pm

RainyDay wrote: »

I'm not unsympathetic to your cause, but can you explain how having 1 ambulance leads to an ambulance going to the wrong school?

Because someone was not paying attention in the control room. It does happen but shouldn't. We don't delay getting to calls & it's just as frustrating for us to be delayed responding.

As for that article & other articles in the various media, just because you have a hospital in your area / town doesn't mean that an ambulance is attached to it.

Timfy · 26-02-2014 4:56pm

Thoie wrote: »

For example, I zoomed into a particular road in the UK on google maps. The location I picked (at random) was 51.404433,-1.46313

Freaky! Thats where I used to live :eek:

Thoie · 26-02-2014 5:53pm

Timfy wrote: »

Freaky! Thats where I used to live :eek:

In a ditch by the river outside Kintbury? That's terrible. On the plus side, we're psychically linked. What number am I thinking of?

RainyDay · 26-02-2014 6:23pm

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

Because someone was not paying attention in the control room.

Agreed - just don't see the connection to having 1 ambulance in the area.

kub · 27-02-2014 1:14am

We have a dangerous situation now with regard to ambulance availability in this country.

Would a solution such as deploying Civil Defence, St John's Ambulance Service, Order Of Malta, Red Cross and possibly the Army when the existing units are busy?

cyclops999 · 27-02-2014 11:06am

kub wrote: »

We have a dangerous situation now with regard to ambulance availability in this country.

Would a solution such as deploying Civil Defence, St John's Ambulance Service, Order Of Malta, Red Cross and possibly the Army when the existing units are busy?

You have approx. 200 retained fire stations in the 26 counties each with a minimum manning level of 9 fire-fighters all of them with EFR & CFR training. A fire appliance with a crew could be of huge assistance to the public while waiting for an ambulance.

I know of ambulance crews in urban areas calling for fire service assistance at RTCs and their own control rooms have refused to call fire service because nobody was trapped. At RTCs more dangers for land based crews other than persons trapped. I know of fire services where calls have gone in for assistance at cardiac arrests because delays in ambulances attending, only for the fire authority to refuse alerting brigade because its not what they do.

DFBLT · 27-02-2014 11:25am

Voluntary services are by and large not trained to the same level as Statutory services and the provision of suitably trained and equipped personnel and vehicles at a moments notice is not what voluntary services are set up to do. Whilst there is a small amount of pre planning, emergency work is by its very nature is largely unpredicable. It's neither feasible nor fair to ask and expect unpaid volunteers to give up their time when the statutory service are taking vehicles off the road because they don't want to replace crews who are on leave or sick.

The army medical corps are again used for pre planned work in the military. They provide cover for military exercises and installations. They have in the past been used by National ambulance service control to provide cover, especially around he Curragh area where they are based. AFAIK they have a very limited amount of resources

RainyDay wrote: »

I'm not unsympathetic to your cause, but can you explain how having 1 ambulance leads to an ambulance going to the wrong school?

A town with the geographical spread and population mix of Drogheda should have more than 1 ambulance. At the moment NAS management drop vehicles off the run if crews are on leave or sick, leaving huge areas of the country without ambulance cover.

Not knowing the particular details of the call and local resource availability at the time I'm just guessing that a 40 minute response time would indicate that the ambulance had to travel from further afield because the local resource was not available. Out of area crews with no GPS is a disaster waiting to happen. If the post code system was up and running, as it is in every other European country, it most likely wouldn't have happened.

Old diesel · 27-02-2014 2:56pm

kub wrote: »

We have a dangerous situation now with regard to ambulance availability in this country.

Would a solution such as deploying Civil Defence, St John's Ambulance Service, Order Of Malta, Red Cross and possibly the Army when the existing units are busy?

I think the thing to do is rather then messing around with getting volunteers in to do 999 calls - is to simply focus on PROPERLY resourcing the ambulance service.

And putting in the tools, equipment personnal and any training that's needed into all aspects of the Ambulance service from the control rooms right down to the crews that respond to the calls.

Theres various options that could and should be considered - for example

The Cork pre hospital doctor idea is absolutely fantastic - and definitely helps save lives - so not only should it be rolled out all over Ireland BUT it should also move from been voluntary to a system where doctors are a PAID resource of the Ambulance service.

Other options that might be considered - is that in many areas - you may have nurses (for example) living in those areas - so could they be fully trained up as emergency responders PAID to respond to 999 calls to help deliver livesaving initial treatment.

On the doctor side of things - ive always had a bit of a bee in my bonnet - about the idea that I could go to a primary care centre - and get physio therapy - or meet the speech therapist* - say 20 mins from home.

But I could wait double that time for the Paramedics and/or Advanced Paramedic to arrive.

Now my thinking is - id rather travel an hour to meet the speech therapist - rather then wait that amount of time for the ambulance people/other responders to arrive.

Need to rethink resources for sure - and I often wonder if things like making the position of Pre Hospital Doctor part of a primary care team would be a potential solution.

Goes without saying that they would need to be trained up in pre hospital emergency care - having the local GP come out to calls without been properly trained isn't a solution either.

On a wider issue though - how is one supposed to deal with a situation where you've given an address which is correct - but the person in a control room in Dublin doesn't know your area - and its not coming up on their system.

And when they ask directions - where do you start giving the directions from when the Dublin controller doesn't know the area - do you literally have to start giving directions from the Ambulance base - or how does it work.

Im talking about situations now - where you've given a correct address

RainyDay · 27-02-2014 4:12pm

DFBLT wrote: »

A town with the geographical spread and population mix of Drogheda should have more than 1 ambulance. At the moment NAS management drop vehicles off the run if crews are on leave or sick, leaving huge areas of the country without ambulance cover.

Not knowing the particular details of the call and local resource availability at the time I'm just guessing that a 40 minute response time would indicate that the ambulance had to travel from further afield because the local resource was not available. Out of area crews with no GPS is a disaster waiting to happen. If the post code system was up and running, as it is in every other European country, it most likely wouldn't have happened.

You might be right about the postcodes, but there is no indication from this story that the availability of ambulances was an issue. The issue was that it went to the wrong place.

DFBLT · 27-02-2014 4:32pm

NAS will never disclose, (unless asked as part of an enquiry into a particular case) where an ambulance was dispatched from. Recently an Ambulance was despatched from Ennis to a cardiac arrest in Tralee !! It was the only resource available in the midwest or southwest area at the time. It is very obvious that the wrong address was tagged by the call taker in the Drogheda call but it still doesn't take 40 mins to get from one side of Drogheda to the other on lights and sirens which still leads me to believe the local crew were not available, who may have recognised the wrong address details given their local knowledge. Still, in the 21st century it's just not good enough that you can have a take away delivered to your door but not an ambulance or fire engine.

Old diesel · 27-02-2014 4:42pm

DFBLT wrote: »

NAS will never disclose, (unless asked as part of an enquiry into a particular case) where an ambulance was dispatched from. Recently an Ambulance was despatched from Ennis to a cardiac arrest in Tralee !! It was the only resource available in the midwest or southwest area at the time. It is very obvious that the wrong address was tagged by the call taker in the Drogheda call but it still doesn't take 40 mins to get from one side of Drogheda to the other on lights and sirens which still leads me to believe the local crew were not available, who may have recognised the wrong address details given their local knowledge. Still, in the 21st century it's just not good enough that you can have a take away delivered to your door but not an ambulance or fire engine.

Yes unfortunately that happens a bit and is a sign of lack of resources - the Kanturk Co Cork Ambulance was sent on a call to Kilmallock in Co Limerick (quite a distance away) - according to our local paper.

Said paper also reported at one time that the Millstreet Co Cork Ambulance ended up having to go to Cork city to answer calls there.

Theres definite issues with lack of resources for the ambulance service imo

.

I think its a mindset issue with HSE - of making do - rather then working up to a high standard.

Yet from what I hear and understand - the actual ambulance crews are actually very good.

Old diesel · 03-03-2014 2:34pm

Remembered this incident over the weekend

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/corkman/news/celebration-of-life-as-con-thanks-his-rescue-team-29519263.html

This was an incident where everything seemed to very well both in terms of the response - and the outcome.

So that raises the question - can we learn from incidents where everything goes well in terms of the response

No harm to add a bit of balance to the debate - by demonstrating an incident that went well - and look at how we could have that response ALL THE TIME.

In the above incident - it seems there was epic amounts of resources available at the same time - local Nurse, local doctor, Paramedics and an Advanced Paramedic.

And the right outcome was achieved - a life was saved

Btw - that incident was in a place called Banteer which is in a rural area (for those who don't know it - if you've ever travelled on the train to Tralee - its the first station AFTER Mallow on the way to Tralee)

compo1 · 05-03-2014 1:25pm

Much of the problem with the despatch of ambulance/fire brigade seems to lie with the call centre; are the staff properly trained? Several years ago, there was local control; i.e.; Cork Ambulance Control. Somebody gone into the river by the Shakey Bridge? Guy at the other end knows exactly where you mean. Now, it's "What county's that in?" (seriously!); "Is that a town or farmland?" (no kidding!) PLEASE bring back local emergency services control.
Also, the situation in Midleton over a year ago when a child died after a fall from a window, "there was no ambulance available". More recently is the claim that the guy on the other end didn't consider it serious enough to send an ambulance. Later again, the word went out that the guy who took the call was "inexperienced".
Get back to local control and employ people with some knowledge of emergency procedures, particularly in ability to ask the right questions and assess the situation.
I don't want to insult people working in call centres. The people involved might be great if you're ringing about your misbehaving new TV or whatever, but professional emergency staff are needed in these places.
Example; recently, I noticed a load of loose horse running wildly around the main road in my area, so I phoned the emergency number, intending that the Gardai, being charged with traffic control (among MANY other things) would do whatever was required to get them to a safe place away from the roads.
Interesting call!
"What service do you require?"
"Gardai"
"Where are ya?"
I replied correctly, giving the area.
"What county?"
"Cork city"
"That out in the country?"(!!)
"City suburbs"
All this time, somebody in the background was discussing the despatch of an ambulance to...........................Ballinasloe!
Finally, I hear a dial tone, followed quickly by a disembodied voice reading back my phone number. (Big Brother IS watching)
"Morning. Anglesea Street Garda station. Traffic control!" Very businesslike Garda voice.
I told him, explaining that the loose horses could be a danger to traffic.
"Right! Thanks! We'll have someone up there in two minutes."
Fortunately, my call was by no means a life-or-death situation, but what if it had been? Valuable time would have been lost, with possibly tragic consequences. When I finally did get to speak to a relevant person, the matter was dealt with very quickly. Twenty minutes later, there wasn't a nag to be seen!

Disturbing 999 call in Cork

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