LEAP CARD - Updated Summary of Cards/Functionality Available - February 2014

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Oh my god, that is truly stupid!

Why don't they just scrap the 24 hour and 7 day ticket and instead implement daily and weekly capping equal to them.

Much much simpler and zero need for driver interaction then.

The leave of stupidity here is truly mind blowing!

It just goes to show the fundamental problem with Leap, smart cards are supposed to speed up dwell times, that doesn't seem to be the goal of Leap at all!

Honestly I don't know what the goal of Leap is!

The problem is that in the next phase they are clearly going to roll it out on the Cork suburban services also and have a zonal structure (similar to Bus Eireann around Dublin) in terms of 24 hour/7 day tickets.


Having a second validator on the city services would solve that anomaly, but I suspect right now that money is an issue in terms of what can be done. It would cost a lot more to invest in new validators for all the buses and as such I think budgetary constraints are kicking in.


Presumably the view is to get the product rolled out at the moment and as funds become available, the additional equipment can be invested in.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Presumably the view is to get the product rolled out at the moment and as funds become available, the additional equipment can be invested in.

I'm of the opinion that there is no point in doing something unless you do it right.

Instead you will end up with a situation where people will try it out, find it is rubbish and never use it again.

The Leap card project is littered with such bad decisions.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that there is no point in doing something unless you do it right.

Instead you will end up with a situation where people will try it out, find it is rubbish and never use it again.

The Leap card project is littered with such bad decisions.

Welcome to the world of projects that ultimately have a politician at the helm, and (more relevantly in these austere times) which are funded by the public purse.

I've long since realised that you will never get the perfect scenario in these circumstances (initially at least).

The politicians wanted the card rolled out in Cork at minimal cost - that's what they've got.

SpaceTime

NuMarvel wrote: »

My next thought was to simply programme the validator on the 216 buses with the different fare, assuming it's still a flat fare regardless of distance travelled. But for all I know, buses are used on different routes, e.g. be the 216 today and the 202 tomorrow.

It's not a flat fare, it's staged similar to Dublin Bus. If you're going the full length of the route the fare's higher than if you're only going a few stops.

The simplest solution for both Dublin and Cork if they were going to insist on having staged fares is to have tag on and tag off.

Well placed readers at the doors of the bus. (In most that would just mean a pair of readers as there's only one set of doors.

Tag on on the way in.. tag off on the way out.

If you don't tag off, you get charged the max route fare.

Simple!

You might have to re-jig the card reader pads so they were facing passengers on the way in and out i.e. double sided pads or just making sure that the machine is easily approached from both directions (would avoid a lot of expense).

Bit of good branding and graphics and you'd avoid a lot of confusion.

There would be some teething problems as passengers got used to it, but it would immediately allow for zonal / staged charging without any driver interaction at all.

Once again, something that Luas has been doing for many years successfully and that CIE can't seem to figure out.

ailbheg

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's not a flat fare, it's staged similar to Dublin Bus. If you're going the full length of the route the fare's higher than if you're only going a few stops.

The simplest solution for both Dublin and Cork if they were going to insist on having staged fares is to have tag on and tag off.

Well placed readers at the doors of the bus. (In most that would just mean a pair of readers as there's only one set of doors.

Tag on on the way in.. tag off on the way out.

If you don't tag off, you get charged the max route fare.

Simple!

Double sided readers and proper branding with decal stickers and you'd have no difficulty at all.

The cost of putting readers on the full fleet is probably the reason that this wasn't done.

If they had card readers like they have in some train stations then there wouldn't be a need for two readers, as there isn't space on most buses to have passengers getting on and off at the same time.

SpaceTime

ailbheg wrote: »

The cost of putting readers on the full fleet is probably the reason that this wasn't done.

I sincerely hope they're looking at alternative suppliers.
The cost of a lot of these technologies has plummeted.

I know all these things are expensive, but it seems a very silly way of doing things.

ailbheg

SpaceTime wrote: »

I sincerely hope they're looking at alternative suppliers.
The cost of a lot of these technologies has plummeted.

I know all these things are expensive, but it seems a very silly way of doing things.

Long term it would definitely be a better option, but I suppose if they don't have the funds to invest in it in the first place, then there's not a lot can be done.

SpaceTime

ailbheg wrote: »

Long term it would definitely be a better option, but I suppose if they don't have the funds to invest in it in the first place, then there's not a lot can be done.

The other alternative is to just have tag on (without driver interaction) on most routes in Cork and only have the messy system on the few routes that need it.

Speaking of teething problems. I remember when the smart cards came out in one city I am familiar with in France, many people were sticking them into the old paper card readers and getting them stamped with the time and date!!

The old machines were very primitive and just literally would stamp a time + date + code on anything you put into them The validation was that the time and date and code were printed on a properly issued paper card which had security printing on it. But, if you stuck in anything at all it would just print info on it. There were no fancy electronics at all, just a clock.

ailbheg

SpaceTime wrote: »

The other alternative is to just have tag on (without driver interaction) on most routes in Cork and only have the messy system on the few routes that need it.

But what if someone wants a 24hr/7 day ticket?

If the drivers are trained in the use of the machine, it shouldn't take any longer than on Dublin Bus to issue a single ticket.

bk

ailbheg wrote: »

But what if someone wants a 24hr/7 day ticket?

Such tickets shouldn't exist, there should be automatic 1 day and 7 day capping like on Dublin Bus.

ailbheg wrote: »

If the drivers are trained in the use of the machine, it shouldn't take any longer than on Dublin Bus to issue a single ticket.

You have to be kidding, Leap on Dublin Bus is WAY too slow, slower then paying by cash!

And that is the problem, it defeats the whole purpose of smart cards, to speed up boarding times.

SpaceTime

I agree, it should take about 1 second to process a card.

The whole purpose of these systems should be that passengers just bang a card on a pad and don't even have to think about it.

I mean, you can process Visa Debit for actual financial transactions for random amounts in shops by just tapping it on a reader and the whole thing is done in under a second.

In public transport this is actually the most critical thing. You don't want busses hanging around at bus stops holding up traffic and delaying everyone on board.

ailbheg

SpaceTime wrote: »

I agree, it should take about 1 second to process a card.

The whole purpose of these systems should be that passengers just bang a card on a pad and don't even have to think about it.

I mean, you can process Visa Debit for actual financial transactions for random amounts in shops by just tapping it on a reader and the whole thing is done in under a second.

In public transport this is actually the most critical thing. You don't want busses hanging around at bus stops holding up traffic and delaying everyone on board.

That's the ideal, but it's unlikely it'll be that way for quite a while. (Although I've never had a contactless Visa transaction completed in under a second...)

Can BE tickets be loaded by an agent (like DB Ramblers now can), or is it only on buses?

Going back to the idea of capping on Bus Eireann, how could it work? With such a range of fares/distances how would you work out a capping system?

Dravokivich

ailbheg wrote: »

That's the ideal, but it's unlikely it'll be that way for quite a while. (Although I've never had a contactless Visa transaction completed in under a second...)

Can BE tickets be loaded by an agent (like DB Ramblers now can), or is it only on buses?

Going back to the idea of capping on Bus Eireann, how could it work? With such a range of fares/distances how would you work out a capping system?

A cap by zone and multiple zone combinations. It's how capping works per operator / multiple operators in Dublin between Dublin Bus, Luas and Irish Rail. Each operator has their own counter. No reason an operator can't have counters per service. For example, how it's not valid on Nitelink with Dublin Bus, but using the leap, does apply 2.50 onto the cap counter.

ailbheg

Dravokivich wrote: »

A cap by zone and multiple zone combinations. It's how capping works per operator / multiple operators in Dublin between Dublin Bus, Luas and Irish Rail. Each operator has their own counter. No reason an operator can't have counters per service. For example, how it's not valid on Nitelink with Dublin Bus, but using the leap, does apply 2.50 onto the cap counter.

That would work if there was the facility to tag off the bus, which there isn't at the moment, unless the ticket machine can be programmed for tagging off.

Dravokivich

ailbheg wrote: »

That would work if there was the facility to tag off the bus, which there isn't at the moment, unless the ticket machine can be programmed for tagging off.

According to the info on the leap card website, they are pushing products there more than fares. There'll be no need for tagging off. I was just explaining how capping would be implemented.

ailbheg

Dravokivich wrote: »

According to the info on the leap card website, they are pushing products there more than fares. There'll be no need for tagging off. I was just explaining how capping would be implemented.

I was saying if there was to be a BE cap based on zones, tagging off would be necessary, as each bus covers a number of zones. I know that it's currently tag on only (using it since October).

Dravokivich

ailbheg wrote: »

I was saying if there was to be a BE cap based on zones, tagging off would be necessary, as each bus covers a number of zones. I know that it's currently tag on only (using it since October).

If you are going to use it so regularly, they want you to do so with a product. Which you'll be able to get at payzone shops or the first time on the bus, instead of purchasing a fare anyway. Simply put, they don't seem to want people to use it for fares.

With the zone in place as an example, If there was going to be a daily cap, it'll need to be more than 5euro. A weekly cap would be more than 21euro. There'll be no incentive to have lower caps for each, as that means people won't buy the products.

Once you have the product, you just tap it on the validator to tag on. Why make it more complicated for something that isn't needed?

The issue I have with the Dublin Bus implementation of rambler products, is that the fare caps in place are too high in comparison to the individual day value on a rambler product that has 30 days on it. people who can't afford the initial outlay for it (137.50) end up paying one and a half times more per day (6.90 on the cap as opposed to 4.58 on the product).

ailbheg

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you are going to use it so regularly, they want you to do so with a product. Which you'll be able to get at payzone shops or the first time on the bus, instead of purchasing a fare anyway. Simply put, they don't seem to want people to use it for fares.

With the zone in place as an example, If there was going to be a daily cap, it'll need to be more than 5euro. A weekly cap would be more than 21euro. There'll be no incentive to have lower caps for each, as that means people won't buy the products.

Once you have the product, you just tap it on the validator to tag on. Why make it more complicated for something that isn't needed?

I think the suggestion re capping was instead of having the products.

My suggestion of needing to tag off obviously wouldn't apply at the minute on the Cork leap, as it's only one zone, but there are 5 zones from Dublin, so to have caps on those services a tag off would be necessary.

Dravokivich

ailbheg wrote: »

I think the suggestion re capping was instead of having the products.

My suggestion of needing to tag off obviously wouldn't apply at the minute on the Cork leap, as it's only one zone, but there are 5 zones from Dublin, so to have caps on those services a tag off would be necessary.

I very much doubt they'll be doing caps for BÉ, particularly long distant commuting services for Dublin. As I said, BÉ don't seem to want people to pay the fare for an individual journey. there's nothing accessible anywhere I've seen that gives definitive fare pricing for them at all. It all just refers to products. Even for commuting to Dublin.

ailbheg

Dravokivich wrote: »

I very much doubt they'll be doing caps for BÉ, particularly long distant commuting services for Dublin. As I said, BÉ don't seem to want people to pay the fare for an individual journey. there's nothing accessible anywhere I've seen that gives definitive fare pricing for them at all. It all just refers to products. Even for commuting to Dublin.

I was just referring to bk's suggestion in an earlier post. I can't see it happening either (and have found the 24hr ticket to work quite well once the teething issues were resolved, a daily cap would probably work out more expensive.)

I found some examples of fares somewhere, may have been in the proposal on the NTA website, but it wasn't much help as only gave a select few. I'll see can I find it again.

LXFlyer

Dravokivich wrote: »

I very much doubt they'll be doing caps for BÉ, particularly long distant commuting services for Dublin. As I said, BÉ don't seem to want people to pay the fare for an individual journey. there's nothing accessible anywhere I've seen that gives definitive fare pricing for them at all. It all just refers to products. Even for commuting to Dublin.

Not quite true.

Fares are quoted here:
Cork:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_No._1_2014_-_Introduction_of_Bus_Eireann_Leap_fares_Red_Zone_Cork_February_14.pdf

Dublin Region:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Bus_Eireann_Eastern_Region_Leap_zonal_1_and_7_day_caps_zonal_taxsaver_tickets.pdf

Dravokivich

lxflyer wrote: »

Not quite true.

Fares are quoted here:
Cork:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_No._1_2014_-_Introduction_of_Bus_Eireann_Leap_fares_Red_Zone_Cork_February_14.pdf

Dublin Region:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Bus_Eireann_Eastern_Region_Leap_zonal_1_and_7_day_caps_zonal_taxsaver_tickets.pdf

So not on the websites you'd expect someone to look for them, which was my point.

ailbheg

lxflyer wrote: »

Not quite true.

Fares are quoted here:
Cork:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_No._1_2014_-_Introduction_of_Bus_Eireann_Leap_fares_Red_Zone_Cork_February_14.pdf

Dublin Region:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Bus_Eireann_Eastern_Region_Leap_zonal_1_and_7_day_caps_zonal_taxsaver_tickets.pdf

Ok, there are more places listed there than I remembered, and it appears to be a 16% reduction across the board, so fares can actually be calculated if the destination is not listed.

ETA: the 16% discount is mentioned here LINK, so it is where it would be expected.

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

I very much doubt they'll be doing caps for BÉ, particularly long distant commuting services for Dublin. As I said, BÉ don't seem to want people to pay the fare for an individual journey. there's nothing accessible anywhere I've seen that gives definitive fare pricing for them at all. It all just refers to products. Even for commuting to Dublin.

But that is the problem, I'm talking about Cork City Bus Services here, not long distance BE services.

Almost no one buys multiday tickets in Cork, it is all almost single fares, even more so then DB.

So what I'm suggesting is scrap the 1 day and 7 day tickets and instead introduce a 1 day and 7 day cap for the Cork City Zone (red zone).

Also scrap the two different zones for the purpose of Leap. Then you could have just tag-on to board with no driver interaction required.

Why they make this so ridiculously complicated is beyond me! Keep it simple, stupid.

This goes to show an overall problem with BE. They threat Cork City bus services as a second thought to their long distance coach services. IMO running of the Cork City Bus Services should really be taken out of the hands of BE and instead given to a dedicated Cork City Bus company, run by the City Council. BE could tender to run the service if they liked.

ailbheg

bk wrote: »

But that is the problem, I'm talking about Cork City Bus Services here, not long distance BE services.

Almost no one buys multiday tickets in Cork, it is all almost single fares, even more so then DB.

So what I'm suggesting is scrap the 1 day and 7 day tickets and instead introduce a 1 day and 7 day cap for the Cork City Zone (red zone).

Also scrap the two different zones for the purpose of Leap. Then you could have just tag-on to board with no driver interaction required.

Why they make this so ridiculously complicated is beyond me! Keep it simple, stupid.

This goes to show an overall problem with BE. They threat Cork City bus services as a second thought to their long distance coach services. IMO running of the Cork City Bus Services should really be taken out of the hands of BE and instead given to a dedicated Cork City Bus company, run by the City Council. BE could tender to run the service if they liked.

Presumably though there will be zones added to the Cork area, so there won't just be a flat fare in the future.

bk

ailbheg wrote: »

Presumably though there will be zones added to the Cork area, so there won't just be a flat fare in the future.

Yeah, make it more complicated not less, genius!

Sometimes I really think that the people in charge hate public transport and want to kill it. There simply is no other explanation for the way they act against it :mad:

BTW Cork really isn't that big a city, there should only be one zone, KISS

SpaceTime

People in Cork don't buy multi day or multi journey tickets because they haven't been advertised or easily available.

Dublin Bus had prepaid cards available through newsagents for many, many years before Leap.

Cork had manual bus passes only available through Bus Eireann bus station.

It would be like as if Dublin bus tickets were only available in Bus Aras.

In general BE in Cork has never really even come close to Dublin Bus in terms of branding, advertising and customer convenience.

ailbheg

bk wrote: »

Yeah, make it more complicated not less, genius!

Sometimes I really think that the people in charge hate public transport and want to kill it. There simply is no other explanation for the way they act against it :mad:

BTW Cork really isn't that big a city, there should only be one zone, KISS

What about when they extend it to beyond the city? What happens then?

SpaceTime

bk wrote: »

Yeah, make it more complicated not less, genius!

Sometimes I really think that the people in charge hate public transport and want to kill it. There simply is no other explanation for the way they act against it :mad:

BTW Cork really isn't that big a city, there should only be one zone, KISS

The issue is when you include the outer suburban / satellite towns it's not THAT small.
Add in Carrigaline, Ballincollig, Blarney/Tower, Midleton, Glanmire etc and you do actually need two zones unless BE was prepared to drastically reduce fares on those routes.

Introducing a higher fare on shorter city routes to balance it out wouldn't be ideal either.

In London for example the flat fare in busses makes using them on short hops very expensive. It used to drive me mad paying full whack to go a few stops from the house to the local high street on a wet day.

I'm confused as to what BE even defines as City and Non City. There is no branding difference so as a punter who rarely uses the service anyway other than the odd hop on the 208 from UCC I wouldn't have a clue.

There are no maps or information at stops etc either. A lot of the time I think they must assume we're physic or sit in on their board meetings!

bk

SpaceTime wrote: »

There are no maps or information at stops etc either. A lot of the time I think they must assume we're physic or sit in on their board meetings!

And also little or no concrete information online.

BE's city services are really badly run.

At the very least they should have a mini site for Cork City services with route maps, fares, timetables, etc.