cycle the grand/royal canal

01Surveyor

monument wrote: »

How would you have designed it?

To be honest that's strangest one I've heard yet about that urban greenway.

The common complaints are the gates, the lack of segregation between walking and cycling, and the illegal behaviour.

Sorry to be negative but I can only reply by saying 'not the way it has been designed'. The extent of hard surfaces and other infrastructural intervention has taken little or no account of the need to protect, or even reinstate the canalside environment which could have been developed as a pleasant foil to the fairly grim urban surroundings. I think it is a case of well intentioned over-design.

I agree that a design which encourages intuitive separation between cyclists and pedestrians would be helpful. A surface which limits, as opposed to promoting, speed would also help.

I dont find the gates on the Inchicore-Lucan Green way to be a big problem. It would be nicer if they werent there but Im not sure their removal would result in a net benefit for the canal environment and its users. The gates are not attractive and are a nuisance but its probably a small price to pay if they protect the amenity from abuse.

CramCycle

01Surveyor wrote: »

I dont find the gates on the Inchicore-Lucan Green way to be a big problem.

Try bringing your child in a trailer or cargo bike. Not a problem for me on my own as I can hope off, hoist my bike over my head and be through in seconds. A parent with a trailer or even a child seat on the bike has no such luxury.

01Surveyor

WaterwaysIre wrote: »

Hi Beauf

we are working with the local authorities to join up all the disparate bits, bring them up to an international standard - mostly grade3, before we begin promoting it. A good chunk of it - about 18km got funding awarded early this year to finish the bit from Ballynacargy on to the Westmeath border, so that will be the whole Westmeath towpath at int'l standard. Looking for opportunities now to fund the balance from Westmeath border through Longford to Clondra - Richmond Harbour.

Product has to be right otherwise risk disappointing all those pioneers who act as such good ambassadors for trails like this. Hope you'll be one!

Waterways Ire

Katrina,

Thats good news, Ballymaglavy Bog is one of the most challenging sections of the towpath. How do you see this section being developed?

Is there any news of what is planned for The Deep Sinking?

01Surveyor

CramCycle wrote: »

Try bringing your child in a trailer or cargo bike. Not a problem for me on my own as I can hope off, hoist my bike over my head and be through in seconds. A parent with a trailer or even a child seat on the bike has no such luxury.

Very good point...............how do people manage with buggies, I suppose they can negotiate the kissing gates? Its a real conundrum to design a gate which prevents unwanted access and facilitates all others. I think the answer lies in education, mindset and effective enforcement all of which cost money. How many 'Parkies' do you see these days?

garancafan

smacl wrote: »

...I think one of the joys of the canals is the variety of terrain and the challenge that creates...

A push for a "closed shop" - MTBs only?

01Surveyor

brian.henry wrote: »

I've a road bike and I've no plans to buy any other. It's a pity, by the sounds of it, that I won't be cycling the canals anytime soon. I find it a bit strange that a flat surface is considered by some too damaging to put alongside a 132km artificial gully which has a train line running parallel. If anyone asks me about cycling the canal my response will be "it's too rough for my bike" and they'll likely be put off doing it themselves.

Describing the canals as you have betrays a lack of familiarity with them. Describing the Phoenix Park as artificial would be accurate in theory but in practical terms it would be a dismissive and unhelpful description bordering on pejorative. Therein endeth the lesson.....sorry.

If you cycle the canals on your road bike you will find that much (the majority) of it is passable with ease and the loose surface described by Katrina is among the most pleasant. There are grass, earth and hard core sections which are more challenging and these are what I understand will be developed. No need to sell the road bike yet, but I strongly recommend borrowing an MTB to try the rougher bits.

Last week I took a friend on the Royal . We did City Centre-Kilcock-City Centre, including the Deep Sinking. He rode a commuter hybrid and thoroughly enjoyed the spin which as an inexperienced cyclist he completed with no difficulty.....even the Deep Sinking.

beauf

You can do it. But you wouldn't choose to do to deep sinking twice a day, especially on a wet day in winter. it would shake everything loose on your bike. In addition, the quality of the tarmac is poor from cabra to the city. Theres borken speed ramps and such. If I was doing it a lot I'd use a MTB even for those bits. But if you did only did it a handful of times a year, in good weather you'd probably enjoy a more challenging surface.

There isn't one size fits all. As some sections are going to be heavily used, (or have the potential) and others parts very rural with light traffic. Probably tourisim rather than commuting, or local families out with buggies and small bikes.

Horses for courses and all that.

smacl

garancafan wrote: »

A push for a "closed shop" - MTBs only?

Hardly, I've only ever ridden the Grand Canal on my hybrid, and have covered good distances on gravel and unpaved bohereens on my road bike. To be honest, some of the more dilapidated L-Roads I travel regularly would be far harsher than the likes of the Mayo greenway. In wet conditions on the canal, muddy sections would be an issue but rolled gravel would be fine. It is a bit slower than tarmac and less grippy for cornering, but neither of these are issues for a flat canal route.
Grass is also slow on slicks, but still doable as can be seen from this recent photo from the Audax Ireland site.

smacl

beauf wrote: »

You can do it. But you wouldn't choose to do to deep sinking twice a day, especially on a wet day in winter. it would shake everything loose on your bike. In addition, the quality of the tarmac is poor from cabra to the city. Theres borken speed ramps and such. If I was doing it a lot I'd use a MTB even for those bits. But if you did only did it a handful of times a year, in good weather you'd probably enjoy a more challenging surface.

There isn't one size fits all. As some sections are going to be heavily used, (or have the potential) and others parts very rural with light traffic. Probably tourisim rather than commuting, or local families out with buggies and small bikes.

Horses for courses and all that.

Exactly, the surface you'd build for regular heavy commuting use would be (and mostly is) very different from what you'd build for light leisure use. But outside of cities and larger suburbs, I don't see the canal tow paths as major transport infrastructure.

mloc123

Would people consider the stretch of the grand canal from Drimnagh to Adamstown pretty safe to cycle at evening time?
Lots of talk about anti social behaviour.. just kids sitting around rinking etc.. or more than that?

01Surveyor

mloc123 wrote: »

Would people consider the stretch of the grand canal from Drimnagh to Adamstown pretty safe to cycle at evening time?
Lots of talk about anti social behaviour.. just kids sitting around rinking etc.. or more than that?

I cant comment as, while I do use the stretch regularly and because I have to, its usually only early mornings and at weekends and there is no problem.....weekdays and evenings could be different.. If I was a pedestrian/cyclist I'd be worried about the risk posed by fast moving cyclists/slow moving pedestrians though.

01Surveyor

beauf wrote: »

You can do it. But you wouldn't choose to do to deep sinking twice a day, especially on a wet day in winter. it would shake everything loose on your bike. In addition, the quality of the tarmac is poor from cabra to the city. Theres borken speed ramps and such. If I was doing it a lot I'd use a MTB even for those bits. But if you did only did it a handful of times a year, in good weather you'd probably enjoy a more challenging surface.

There isn't one size fits all. As some sections are going to be heavily used, (or have the potential) and others parts very rural with light traffic. Probably tourisim rather than commuting, or local families out with buggies and small bikes.

Horses for courses and all that.

Agreed.
I suppose it depends what you are used to. I use the stretch from Cross Guns to Ashtown regularly and the surface is fine for mine and 'her in door's' road bikes. The state of the City streets is far more dangerous in my opinion.

nilhg

smacl wrote: »

Exactly, the surface you'd build for regular heavy commuting use would be (and mostly is) very different from what you'd build for light leisure use. But outside of cities and larger suburbs, I don't see the canal tow paths as major transport infrastructure.

Naas/Sallins into Dublin must have potential as a proper cycle commuter route, the alternatives from there aren't hugely attractive. Maynooth in I'm not so familiar with but potential there too?

nilhg

gzoladz wrote: »

One question, having cycled to Royal e2e, I am now planning to complete the Grand.

I am struggling to work out the logistics for Dublin - Shannon Harbour so I am considering doing Dublin - Athy instead. The canal branches out at Robertstown.

Has anybody cycled the Robertstown - Athy leg? Any comment? Any good?

Thanks

Haven't cycled on it in years even though I live beside it, but the towpaths are reasonably good, with a fair bit of them actually tarmaced and in use as public roads, a decent hybrid should be fine, if this weather continues you might be OK on a road bike.

Kinet1c

mloc123 wrote: »

Would people consider the stretch of the grand canal from Drimnagh to Adamstown pretty safe to cycle at evening time?
Lots of talk about anti social behaviour.. just kids sitting around rinking etc.. or more than that?

You'd be quicker on the roads, up the long mile road and across on to Nangor road. They're in relatively good nick too, apart from the very top of the Nangor road towards Adamstown.

In terms of anti-social behavior, not sure how it is during the winter but during summer time if it's warm, you'll have a lot of young folk at each lock.... getting locked/swimming. Never had an issue with them though.

monument

01Surveyor wrote: »

If you cycle the canals on your road bike you will find that much (the majority) of it is passable with ease and the loose surface described by Katrina is among the most pleasant.

I have to disagree.

And I know people who cycle of different abilities who dislike the compacted crushed stone surface on the Great Westren Greenway and they would strongly disagree with you.

And the Dutch will tell you surface quality is very important to getting large amounts of people on bicycles for transport reasons.

beauf

01Surveyor wrote: »

Agreed.
I suppose it depends what you are used to. I use the stretch from Cross Guns to Ashtown regularly and the surface is fine for mine and 'her in door's' road bikes. The state of the City streets is far more dangerous in my opinion.

I'm not saying its the paris roubaix

I guess it depends on the route you are used to. I'm cycling a lot more on the quays and IFSC these days and certainly a lot of the surfaces is either falling apart or very badly designed with mismatched materials and edges, effectively trip hazards for cyclists. My old route on the grand Canal had a much better surface.

The stretch from Cabra to Cross Guns falls somewhere in the middle.

smacl

nilhg wrote: »

Naas/Sallins into Dublin must have potential as a proper cycle commuter route, the alternatives from there aren't hugely attractive. Maynooth in I'm not so familiar with but potential there too?

It would certainly have the potential, but currently would be mucky and heavy going in wet conditions on the parts that a basically just grass. A crushed gravel surface would be a cheap enough way to resolve this, though it still would be more suited to hybrid or cross bikes than road bikes. Could end up being a lovely commute, albeit possibly slower than using the road. As it stands it would be a very enjoyable commute on a CX bike.

beauf

On my slick tyred MTB the off road trails in the park are impassable in the rain. The rear wheel just spins out.

In heavy rain I've tried to use under the trees trails for cover. Was pointless. Need knobblies.

smacl

monument wrote: »

And I know people who cycle of different abilities who dislike the compacted crushed stone surface on the Great Westren Greenway and they would strongly disagree with you.

So do I. Primarily experienced road cyclists who find it slow, unsuited to high end road bikes on 23mm tyres, and prone to get the good bike dirty. Its a pretty good surface for inexperienced cyclists, as my 8 year old daughter would testify.

Again, you have to consider whether it is primarily a leisure amenity or a piece of transport infrastructure. I would say the former. If I wanted to get from Westport to Achill on a bike with the minimum time and effort, I'd take the road.

smacl

beauf wrote: »

On my slick tyred MTB the off road trails in the park are impassable in the rain. The rear wheel just spins out.

In heavy rain I've tried to use under the trees trails for cover. Was pointless. Need knobblies.

Gravel and mud are very different in the wet. FWIW, I use 38mm Schwalbe CX comp for light off road on the hybrid, but even they still slide a bit in the mud.

galwaycyclist

smacl wrote: »

So do I. Primarily experienced road cyclists who find it slow, unsuited to high end road bikes on 23mm tyres, and prone to get the good bike dirty. Its a pretty good surface for inexperienced cyclists, as my 8 year old daughter would testify.

Again, you have to consider whether it is primarily a leisure amenity or a piece of transport infrastructure. I would say the former. If I wanted to get from Westport to Achill on a bike with the minimum time and effort, I'd take the road.

If this is part of continuous cross-country route then by that fact it is a key piece of transport/tourism infrastructure.

That is to say it is of national strategic value regardless of what other types of users it may attract in the various places it passes through. The available width and mixed-use nature will still make it unsuitable for roadies on training runs (they should be on the roads anyway).

However that does not change the fact that it will be a strategic tourism route. So it should be suitable for someone on a high-end touring bike with narrow ish tyres and front and rear panniers.

If the Grand Canal becomes part of the Eurovelo - Galway to Moscow - route as some would argue (e.g. me) then it will be a piece of strategic infrastructure at European level. Along the lines of the Danube route etc.

It cannot be considered as if it was some multi-user trail in a local park - even if it ends up filling that role in some places.

CramCycle

01Surveyor wrote: »

Very good point...............how do people manage with buggies, I suppose they can negotiate the kissing gates? Its a real conundrum to design a gate which prevents unwanted access and facilitates all others. I think the answer lies in education, mindset and effective enforcement all of which cost money. How many 'Parkies' do you see these days?

Buggies can negotiate them if they are the narrow old school Mclaren ones fairly easily but any bigger and they can become awkward at best. What about mobility scooters for the elderly etc.

A pole to stop cars is pretty much the main requirement. Fair enough you run the risk of mopeds/motorbikes but at least it facilitates alot more people.

In regards to the path type, having travelled around similar paths in Europe, the idea of keeping crushed rock/gravel as the make up seems idiotic.

Visually, it's an opinion but if done well, tarmacadam is fine IMO. It won't crumble or create trips after a really bad storm, it won't run off into the local waterways.

smacl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

However that does not change the fact that it will be a strategic tourism route. So it should be suitable for someone on a high-end touring bike with narrow ish tyres and front and rear panniers.

I think the Greenway surface is actually fine for any touring bike, though the very many cattle grids and gates would be a major source of complaint and detract from the facility greatly. This also makes a bit of a nightmare to navigate towing a trailer or tail-gator, which rather defeats one objective of it being family friendly.

Where the compacted gravel would become an issue is on hillier ground, but given both the greenway and canals are flat this doesn't really come into play.

Mercian Pro

VS



It's not just about cyclists getting from A to B, it's about the quality of the experience for all users too.

beauf

If only the whole route was as good as both those photos.

CramCycle

Mercian Pro wrote: »

It's not just about cyclists getting from A to B, it's about the quality of the experience for all users too.

The green fencing in the second photo is a bit of an eyesore but other than that they are both grand in the summer. Come the first fall of rain and a tourist on a heavily laden touring/audax bike will be a danger to themselves and other walkers/cyclists in the first one. The second one, not so much.

The second one also does not disguise any sinkholes/ruts/small tripping obstacles which will be a (likely minor) danger to walkers and cyclists. My experience in the Netherlands was that while there were the occasional route that was like the top photo, generally they were all facsimiles of the second, all were beautiful and friendly.

smacl

CramCycle wrote: »

The second one also does not disguise any sinkholes/ruts/small tripping obstacles which will be a (likely minor) danger to walkers and cyclists. My experience in the Netherlands was that while there were the occasional route that was like the top photo, generally they were all facsimiles of the second, all were beautiful and friendly.

Having done my share of walking and hiking, I can't see many walkers being too keen on going any distance on tarmac. Other than the very elderly or infirmed, walkers won't be in any way worried by sinkholes/ruts/small tripping obstacles. Similarly paving the full width of the grassed area as per the photo is going to be negative to anglers. Personally, I think the tarmac surface in that setting is a real eyesore.

What's also worth remembering is that Ireland is already criss-crossed with a network of (roughly) paved L-roads that see very little traffic. Its not like those who are looking for quiet idyllic rural cycling aren't already spoilt for choice. You can, and I do, cover big distances by bike with minimal traffic and great scenery. At the same time, the mixed surface long distance spin provided by the canals is unique.

galwaycyclist

smacl wrote: »

What's also worth remembering is that Ireland is already criss-crossed with a network of (roughly) paved L-roads that see very little traffic. Its not like those who are looking for quiet idyllic rural cycling aren't already spoilt for choice. You can, and I do, cover big distances by bike with minimal traffic and great scenery.

You and I and most here are mostly fit, adult, cycling enthusiasts.

I am in agreement on the potential for quiet rural cycling via small country lanes but there is an apparent refusal by the state to consider these roads as a cycling resource or to implement the kind of measures needed to use them as part of a coherent greenway/cycling route network.

While some of them are quiet, many of them are subject to rat-running and have speed limits and driver speeds that are wholly inappropriate to the type of road, its function and its location. In many cases 80km/h.

They do not tick the greenway box particularly for family groups with small people.

Edit: There can also be challenges in getting to these quiet rural roads.

blobbie

Yeah, some of the country road speed limits are crazy.

For example, close to you Galwaycyclist, a wee bit out to the west of Galway City you have

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2501714,-9.2402774,3a,75y,29.27h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdbcGK5AuregLngDoEzqIWA!2e0

with this a hundred yards or so up the bohereen;

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2510595,-9.2397359,3a,75y,29.27h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQyLoKQpWX968wukXOCSvLg!2e0


The problem with speed limits is that some people see them as a minimum rather than a maximum.