cycle the grand/royal canal

Beer Assistant

Pinch Flat wrote: »

They're in the process of improving this at the moment. New path being laid from Castleknock towards Coolmine bridge. There was talk of a boardwalk to provide a separate path around the Deep Sink. Haven't been down that way in a while, but interested to see how it turns out.

still the same condition here very very rough

01Surveyor

Just in from a glorious morning spin on the Grand and Royal. I extended my usual City Centre-Hazlehatch-Maynooth-City Centre loop by carrying on past Hazlehatch to Ardclough. Its a nice extension to the standard loop, the bridge after hazlehatch is a real beauty and you can have a posh bun and tea in the Lyons estate cafe (open from 12.00). The only way back from Ardclough to Maynooth is via Celbridge but its only about 6k to Celbridge.. Gollierstown with its three 'Lakes' and the Deep sinking have got to be the most beautiful areas on the canals. I hope they dont screw up the Deep Sinking by covering it in tarmac. I rode from Drimnagh to Adamstown and only had to put my hands on the bars at the gates....b...o....r....i...n...g , and not what towpath travel is about and if repeated it will drive all but commuters away from the canals. The same could be said of the stretch from the Deep Sinking to Ashtown. Commuters must be accommodated safely and conveniently but I dont believe it should cost us the canal environment and a potential tourism asset to do so.

Only about a third of the deep Sinking surface could be describes as really rough. The first and last thirds are no problem whatsoever. Confidence in your bike handling skills is the key if you are going to cycle the roughest section, and you do need a bit of speed. I dont believe it could be done safely/comfortably without front suspension, punctures and falls are'nt the only risk and I suspect your family prospects could be limited by repeated traversing of the Deep Sinking. However the rough section only extends for about 300m and you could do a lot worse than walk it and enjoy the setting.

Mercian Pro

smacl wrote: »

I don't think you need fully paved, but a narrow lightly compacted gravel track would make cycling pleasurable, whereas grass and mud are heavy going.

Having completed about 130k on the back roads of Wicklow and Kilkenny yesterday, I exercised the walking muscles today between Robertstown and Monsterevin on the Barrow branch of the Grand Canal. Only met one long-distance walker in over five hours but did get chatting to three cyclists who had covered St Mullins to Athy on Saturday and were well on their way to Sallins when we met. Two were on hard tail MTBs and the unfortunate third on a hybrid.
We all agreed that the ideal solution to the conflict between a suitable cycling surface and maintaining the beauty of the grassy towpath was exactly as described above. Compacted gravel similar to the Great Western Greenway but no more than about 80cm wide. A smooth wide Tarmac finish might be justified in heavily trafficked suburban areas but certainly not on unspoilt rural towpaths.

01Surveyor

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Having completed about 130k on the back roads of Wicklow and Kilkenny yesterday, I exercised the walking muscles today between Robertstown and Monsterevin on the Barrow branch of the Grand Canal. Only met one long-distance walker in over five hours but did get chatting to three cyclists who had covered St Mullins to Athy on Saturday and were well on their way to Sallins when we met. Two were on hard tail MTBs and the unfortunate third on a hybrid.
We all agreed that the ideal solution to the conflict between a suitable cycling surface and maintaining the beauty of the grassy towpath was exactly as described above. Compacted gravel similar to the Great Western Greenway but no more than about 80cm wide. A smooth wide Tarmac finish might be justified in heavily trafficked suburban areas but certainly not on unspoilt rural towpaths.

I completely agree.
However there are areas where the compacted grit/gravel may not work due to rock or tree roots e.g. The Deep Sinking. The idea of a boardwalk is interesting but will be high maintenance I suspect. I've never used one but imagine they could be slippery particularly under trees. I think they use them in Ballhoura so they must work? I've seen mention of a mesh that can be laid over obstructions and filled with 'stuff'. I know this is used for carparking in green areas and is along the tow path in phibsborough so that vehicles with a wider wheelbase than the tow path can drive along the canal without churning up the grass,

smacl

01Surveyor wrote: »

I completely agree.
However there are areas where the compacted grit/gravel may not work due to rock or tree roots e.g. The Deep Sinking. The idea of a boardwalk is interesting but will be high maintenance I suspect. I've never used one but imagine they could be slippery particularly under trees. I think they use them in Ballhoura so they must work? I've seen mention of a mesh that can be laid over obstructions and filled with 'stuff'. I know this is used for carparking in green areas and is along the tow path in phibsborough so that vehicles with a wider wheelbase than the tow path can drive along the canal without churning up the grass,

They have them over many walking routes around Wicklow, e.g. Cruagh, Djouce, Glendalough etc... Chicken wire covered heavy planking elevated a bit off the ground. They tend to be used in deep bog where gravel would just sink in, and I think they're there as much to protect the bog from erosion by walkers as to convenience the walkers. They do the job well enough, though I'm not a fan of them myself. I haven't been up to the deep sinking myself, so don't know what would be suitable.

Mercian Pro

smacl wrote: »

They have them over many walking routes around Wicklow, e.g. Cruagh, Djouce, Glendalough etc... Chicken wire covered heavy planking elevated a bit off the ground. They tend to be used in deep bog where gravel would just sink in, and I think they're there as much to protect the bog from erosion by walkers as to convenience the walkers. They do the job well enough, though I'm not a fan of them myself. I haven't been up to the deep sinking myself, so don't know what would be suitable.

The Deep Sinking is just under a km long and the tow path is compressed between the railway on one side and a drop to the canal about 10m below on the other. It is heavily overgrown, which adds to its attractiveness, but makes it quite dangerous for cycling as there are a lot of exposed tree roots. There might be some possibility of a cycle path on the far bank but I suspect a few CPO's would be required.

smacl

Mercian Pro wrote: »

The Deep Sinking is just under a km long and the tow path is compressed between the railway on one side and a drop to the canal about 10m below on the other. It is heavily overgrown, which adds to its attractiveness, but makes it quite dangerous for cycling as there are a lot of exposed tree roots. There might be some possibility of a cycle path on the far bank but I suspect a few CPO's would be required.

Sounds more like a bit of topsoil to cover a protect exposed roots and a thin layer of rolled gravel would be the cheap and effective solution. Doesn't need to be wider than a bit of single track / width of narrowest roller. Board walk just gives you something to fall off if your concentration lapses, and IMO is more awkward than gravel snow / ice.

beauf

You have to be able to pass other cyclists on it, walkers etc. In places there's hardly any room and a big drop if you miss step.

beauf

It's very overgrown at the moment. Not shorts friendly at all. If it was cut back even slightly it would help a lot in the right spots.

01Surveyor

beauf wrote: »

It's very overgrown at the moment. Not shorts friendly at all. If it was cut back even slightly it would help a lot in the right spots.

Yes I noticed that too, I've never seen it so overgrown with nettles overhanging the path from the landside verge. While I dont like to see the type of nuclear cutting back engaged in on the canal by CIE, some maintenance of the verges on the Deep Sinking would be helpful.

I dont think any loose fill material spread on the tow path could be sustained without some sort of means of retaining it e.g a mesh or mat or perhaps some sort of retaining wall structure on the canal side. There are timber retaining systems which are intended for the type of setting where concrete and masonry is not appropriate. I hope that whoever decides what to do gives it the same consideration as is evident in this thread...........they might even read it!

As a matter of interest I wonder if anyone has ever fallen into the canal form the Deep Sinking.....I've never heard of it? Perhaps we are worrying about nothing. I've visited many beautiful state owned amenities in Spain and Italy that make the Deep Sinking look like a creche garden.

_Brian

Sorry to jump on here guys.
The council wet to do some works in the stretches near Mullingar, does anyone know if this was ever completed.
For smaller kids would it be suitable to cycle either direction from Mullingar.

We found the Newry/Belfast Canal great but the Tarmac seems OTT when you see how successful the compacted gravel on the Western Greenway are.

01Surveyor

Brian,

Its three years since I last cycled The Royal beyond Enfield but the stretch from Mullingar to Coolnahay was really lovely and Coolnahay harbour is a delight with tea and scones served in the lock keepers house Travveling in the opposite direction the stretch to Thomastown Harbour/Kilucan is also nice. I dont remember the towpath being in anyway problematic in either direction but it may depend on how small the kids are. My kids really loved the canal spins especially with dog.Coolnahay is easily accessible from the Ballyncarrigy road so you could cycle back to Mullingar on that. There is a train station in Kilucan but I dont know if trains stop there anymore so you'd be faced with returning to Mullingar on the old Dublin Road if the tow path was a problem. In my experience 'The Mother' is often less enthusiastic about canal spins and can be persuaded to rendezvous by car at the end of the spin thereby avoiding returning by the same route.

I agree about the tarmac v gravel issue. The stretch of 'autobahn' from Drimnagh to Adamstown on the grand Canal is a real missed opportunity to create something special as opposed the unthinking 'footpath is a footpath is a footpath......' road engineering approach. No offence to roads engineers, roads have to be safe, but a pedestrian/cycle way that would be safe for 80k traffic is overkill.

beauf

01Surveyor wrote: »

Yes I noticed that too, I've never seen it so overgrown with nettles overhanging the path from the landside verge. While I dont like to see the type of nuclear cutting back engaged in on the canal by CIE, some maintenance of the verges on the Deep Sinking would be helpful.

I dont think any loose fill material spread on the tow path could be sustained without some sort of means of retaining it e.g a mesh or mat or perhaps some sort of retaining wall structure on the canal side. There are timber retaining systems which are intended for the type of setting where concrete and masonry is not appropriate. I hope that whoever decides what to do gives it the same consideration as is evident in this thread...........they might even read it!

As a matter of interest I wonder if anyone has ever fallen into the canal form the Deep Sinking.....I've never heard of it? Perhaps we are worrying about nothing. I've visited many beautiful state owned amenities in Spain and Italy that make the Deep Sinking look like a creche garden.

I've heard of a few over the years. I'm not certain if they were specifically at this location, but near enough where the depth is a problem.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/two-hour-rescue-drama-as-young-woman-plunges-into-canal-at-one-in-the-morning-26888787.html

As a kid, a mate and myself cycled along Deep Sinking, he hit a root and went head over heels over the side. I just heard a shout, and when I looked he had vanished. Luckily he was supported by the reeds and I could just pull him and the bike out.

Its not somewhere I would like to risk falling in.

monument

_Brian wrote: »

We found the Newry/Belfast Canal great but the Tarmac seems OTT when you see how successful the compacted gravel on the Western Greenway are.

What do you mean OTT?

There's no environmental benefit to keeping it 'gravel', it could be the opposite.

I've heard and read more than a few complaints about the surface of the Great Western Greenway.

monument

01Surveyor wrote: »

I agree about the tarmac v gravel issue. The stretch of 'autobahn' from Drimnagh to Adamstown on the grand Canal is a real missed opportunity to create something special as opposed the unthinking 'footpath is a footpath is a footpath......' road engineering approach. No offence to roads engineers, roads have to be safe, but a pedestrian/cycle way that would be safe for 80k traffic is overkill.

How would you have designed it?

To be honest that's strangest one I've heard yet about that urban greenway.

The common complaints are the gates, the lack of segregation between walking and cycling, and the illegal behaviour.

gzoladz

One question, having cycled to Royal e2e, I am now planning to complete the Grand.

I am struggling to work out the logistics for Dublin - Shannon Harbour so I am considering doing Dublin - Athy instead. The canal branches out at Robertstown.

Has anybody cycled the Robertstown - Athy leg? Any comment? Any good?

Thanks

WaterwaysIre

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Having completed about 130k on the back roads of Wicklow and Kilkenny yesterday, I exercised the walking muscles today between Robertstown and Monsterevin on the Barrow branch of the Grand Canal. Only met one long-distance walker in over five hours but did get chatting to three cyclists who had covered St Mullins to Athy on Saturday and were well on their way to Sallins when we met. Two were on hard tail MTBs and the unfortunate third on a hybrid.
We all agreed that the ideal solution to the conflict between a suitable cycling surface and maintaining the beauty of the grassy towpath was exactly as described above. Compacted gravel similar to the Great Western Greenway but no more than about 80cm wide. A smooth wide Tarmac finish might be justified in heavily trafficked suburban areas but certainly not on unspoilt rural towpaths.

Hi Mercian
The plan for the Barrow towpath which we are working on at the moment with the four local authorities is a grade 3 surface which is that compacted stone overlaid with quarry dust to a maximum 2m wide over a 4m wide towpath. Should provide sufficient separation for both cyclists and walkers while maintaining the rural look. There has been some comments made about tarmacing - unhelpful and never an option on rural towpath. Full plans will go out for public consultation as part of planning process so everyone will get a chance to see and comment.
Happy to answer any questions
Katrina

WaterwaysIre

gzoladz wrote: »

One question, having cycled to Royal e2e, I am now planning to complete the Grand.

I am struggling to work out the logistics for Dublin - Shannon Harbour so I am considering doing Dublin - Athy instead. The canal branches out at Robertstown.

Has anybody cycled the Robertstown - Athy leg? Any comment? Any good?

Thanks

Hi Gzoladz

Have you got a Grand Canal Guide with the distances, services, facilities in it? We produce them so I'm not allowed to do product promotion here, but just to make you aware it is possible to plan using those guides. There are also others on the Royal and Barrow. The National Trails Office also does trail maps for all three long distance routes on their website Irishtrails.ie, excellent maps and with posts from people who have recently done them so you can find out where the weakness are. Hope that helps.
Happy to answer any questions I can

Waterways Ire

WaterwaysIre

beauf wrote: »

Excellent.

I'm surprised the route has such a low profile. I just find it amazing you can go from D.15 to city center, almost entirely off road, avoiding all the traffic.

Hi Beauf

we are working with the local authorities to join up all the disparate bits, bring them up to an international standard - mostly grade3, before we begin promoting it. A good chunk of it - about 18km got funding awarded early this year to finish the bit from Ballynacargy on to the Westmeath border, so that will be the whole Westmeath towpath at int'l standard. Looking for opportunities now to fund the balance from Westmeath border through Longford to Clondra - Richmond Harbour.

Product has to be right otherwise risk disappointing all those pioneers who act as such good ambassadors for trails like this. Hope you'll be one!

Waterways Ire

Beer Assistant

WaterwaysIre wrote: »

Hi Beauf

we are working with the local authorities to join up all the disparate bits, bring them up to an international standard - mostly grade3, before we begin promoting it. A good chunk of it - about 18km got funding awarded early this year to finish the bit from Ballynacargy on to the Westmeath border, so that will be the whole Westmeath towpath at int'l standard. Looking for opportunities now to fund the balance from Westmeath border through Longford to Clondra - Richmond Harbour.

Product has to be right otherwise risk disappointing all those pioneers who act as such good ambassadors for trails like this. Hope you'll be one!

Waterways Ire

Some attention to the section from Ferns lock to Enfield would be most welcome.

WaterwaysIre

Thanks for your input - I hear you, will pass to Engineers in Operations to consider. Funds are tight and allocated on a priority basis. At this time of year - lots of year at the end of the money, it is only the highest priorities will get seen to. Will give myself a reminder to push again next spring.

Carawaystick

WaterwaysIre wrote: »

. The National Trails Office also does trail maps for all three long distance routes on their website Irishtrails.ie, excellent maps

The website is www.irishtrails.ie it's broke with out the "www"

monument

I'm staying away from the issue of the Barrow towpath until I can at least read up on the topic more. There may be a case for keeping it all green -- I'm very pro cycling and developing a national cycle network, but I there's a case for keeping some places mostly for walking and keeping some places without interventions.

So, my following comments are general comments, and not directed towards Barrow towpath issue...

WaterwaysIre wrote: »

... compacted stone overlaid with quarry dust to a maximum 2m wide over a 4m wide towpath. Should provide sufficient separation for both cyclists and walkers while maintaining the rural look.

Just about the only place you'll find quarried and crushed compacted stone overlaid with quarry dust in most of rural Ireland is at a very unnatural open quarry.

People who think quarried stone spread on a path along a waterway or woods is any more rural or natural than "tarmac" are only kidding themselves.

These is zero environmental benefits from using quarried stone which is not bonded together over that which is bonded.

WaterwaysIre wrote: »

... There has been some comments made about tarmacing - unhelpful and never an option on rural towpath.

In the context of

(1) Government policy aiming for even a modest 10% cycling modal share (2) Government policy which aims to offer a high-quality cycling tourism product
(3) Generally all the benefits of cycling as transport and for leisure (positive effects in tackling: energy independence, inactivity, obesity, climate change etc)

It's a really unhelpful comment to make that bounded surfaces are "never an option on rural towpath".

garancafan

WaterwaysIre wrote: »

...There has been some comments made about tarmacing - unhelpful and never an option on rural towpath....
Katrina

It may have escaped Waterways Ireland's notice but horse-drawn barges are something of a rarity in Ireland in the 21st century.
The riparian tracks originally laid down for the purpose of the towing of barges by horse would now be of best benefit to citizens by being adapted for leisure usage.
The option of using the tracks for the increasingly popular leisure pursuit of cycling - alongside that of walking - should be to the foremost of the minds of those charged with developing the amenity.
I hope that Katarina's comments do not reflect a prejudicial mindset against tarmacadam.

galwaycyclist

garancafan wrote: »

It may have escaped Waterways Ireland's notice but horse-drawn barges are something of a rarity in Ireland in the 21st century.
The riparian tracks originally laid down for the purpose of the towing of barges by horse would now be of best benefit to citizens by being adapted for leisure usage.
The option of using the tracks for the increasingly popular leisure pursuit of cycling - alongside that of walking - should be to the foremost of the minds of those charged with developing the amenity.
I hope that Katarina's comments do not reflect a prejudicial mindset against tarmacadam.

Yes I had the same thought myself when I saw that comment.

The canal "towpath" is no more a towpath than the Western Greenway is a "railway line".

On the issue of the crushed limestone I understood that this was used on the Western Greenway mainly because of cost issues. Also you could make the argument that the use of an unbound surface is more in keeping with Western Greenway's status as temporary structure kept open at the sufferance of individual landowners.

I suspect its easier to sell a gravel path to a nervous landowner than a properly made road. And a cycleway should always be a properly made road.

Are we to understand that Waterways Ireland sees towpath cycleways as temporary structures?

Also its a while since I did my freshwater biology but what is the effect on aquatic life of highly turbid run off containing limestone dust compared with comparatively clean run off from properly laid tarmac. In this case, unlike other roads, the tarmac should not be contaminated engine oil , exhaust residues etc

Would limestone not also affect the water chemistry eg PH etc? Especially where the canal passes through boggy areas?

BrianHenryIE

I've a road bike and I've no plans to buy any other. It's a pity, by the sounds of it, that I won't be cycling the canals anytime soon. I find it a bit strange that a flat surface is considered by some too damaging to put alongside a 132km artificial gully which has a train line running parallel. If anyone asks me about cycling the canal my response will be "it's too rough for my bike" and they'll likely be put off doing it themselves.

smacl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

YOn the issue of the crushed limestone I understood that this was used on the Western Greenway mainly because of cost issues.

That is a pretty good reason on a restricted capital budget, particularly where the cost might make the difference between a perfectly acceptable path and no path at all. The main complaint with the western greenway from a cycling perspective is the number of gates rather than the quality of surface.

I also think that there is a big difference between transport infrastructure and leisure paths. The object of the former is to get from A to B quickly and safely with minimum discomfort. The object of the latter is spend time enjoying and exploring the great outdoors. I think one of the joys of the canals is the variety of terrain and the challenge that creates. Once it is all safe and passable, I for one would hate to see it made any more uniform.

smacl

brian.henry wrote: »

I've a road bike and I've no plans to buy any other.

Shhhhh....... that's a banning offence around these parts

01Surveyor

smacl wrote: »

That is a pretty good reason on a restricted capital budget, particularly where the cost might make the difference between a perfectly acceptable path and no path at all. The main complaint with the western greenway from a cycling perspective is the number of gates rather than the quality of surface.

I also think that there is a big difference between transport infrastructure and leisure paths. The object of the former is to get from A to B quickly and safely with minimum discomfort. The object of the latter is spend time enjoying and exploring the great outdoors. I think one of the joys of the canals is the variety of terrain and the challenge that creates. Once it is all safe and passable, I for one would hate to see it made any more uniform.

Well said SMACL I couldnt agree more. I welcome Katrina's comments on the type of surface that is appropriate for the canal side pathway. There is nothing wrong with tarmac in its place but in the almost Sylvan setting of the canal it would be a travesty.
For those expressing concern about the suitability of unbound finisihes for cycling I suggest you try there many examples of this type of finish on both canals, it is superb both for walking and for cycling. It accommodates the surrounding vegetation and is readily repaired and maintained. It is permeable and free draining.

The canal environment is quite unique in Ireland, to 'pasteurise' it in the interest of Health and Safety will ruin it as an amenity and a tourist attraction. Take a spin on the Grand from Drimnagh to Adamstown and then through Gollierstown to Hazelhatch and then decide which represents the most attractive environment. I cant see tourists flocking to ride or walk a replica of the Inchicore-lucan Greenway(sic) but wonderful environments like the Deep Sinking, Coolnahay, Ballymaglavy bog....now thats a different matter. A development policy of sympathetic and minimal intervention is required to strike a balance between facilitating users and protecting the existing environment....and it sounds like thats what is proposed .

01Surveyor

gzoladz wrote: »

One question, having cycled to Royal e2e, I am now planning to complete the Grand.

I am struggling to work out the logistics for Dublin - Shannon Harbour so I am considering doing Dublin - Athy instead. The canal branches out at Robertstown.

Has anybody cycled the Robertstown - Athy leg? Any comment? Any good?

Thanks

Im not sure what logistical problems are arising for you but in case it helps, there is a bus service from Ferbane and Cloghan to Athlone and from there you get to just about anywhere. Cloghan and Ferbane are a short distance from Shannon Harbour.
I've heard good reports about the Barrow line but have never travelled it.