organic farming

StevenToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565580#Comment_121565580

2024 !

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566156#Comment_121566156

Maybe it’ll be the middle of February in 2024 also, who knows.

endainoz

Would make sense, thty do want to get the conversion process going quickly to fill the targets they set for themselves.

Water John

Some info on new applicants, hope they're notified soon;

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/how-many-organic-farming-scheme-applications-in-your-county/

farmer24

.1

cute geoge

I am getting interested in going organic .I dont use a whole pile of doses as it is and let that side of things takes care of it self.I would have 40 acres rented ,to get organics grant what sort of a lease would I need for this would the simple IFA lease cover me .Where is the best place for guidelines to transition to organic farming.

My plan would be calf sucker cows to grass (march) .Is aax the most suitable cow .

What number of cows/calves on 40 goodish acres without niter ,would 15-18 cows be about the go

Water John

5 years is the Dept organic contract. Yeah 15/18 cows seems about right. Depends how long you keep stock. Lim X would be good mothers. If you're finishing the AA stock would be smaller, finish earlier and could finish off grass. I'd say book yourself in to do the 25 hour course. NOTS will be running one somewhere fairly near you: https://nots.ie/courses/ Found it very good. There are plenty walks on farms each year too. Go to a couple of those. Learn a lot from the other farmers present too.

Dosing is on dung samples, the way most vets are recommending all farmers go anyway.

RockOrBog

I would have always dosed going by a timeline, I tried the dung samples testing this year, they actually didn't need dosing at all when I thought they did

Edit. Totally anecdotal, I am not an organic farmer

n1st

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651004#Comment_121651004

I believe it's a no brainer for smaller operations. Reduce stock is no harm, you'll be getting a few thousand from the organics and will be reducing your costs with not fertilizers and probably less feed.

Less animals less spraying and spreading less cost more money.

The 25hr course is very informative on good farming practice and food regardless.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651865#Comment_121651865

I am not really about that after the conversion you are more or less paid 100/ acre after conversion. For a sixty acre farm that is 6K.

Your out put will probably drop 20-40%, you will have extra ration and straw costs. Organic rations are twice the price of standard ones. Straw was uneconomical at 15-20/ bale, at 50+ I just cannot see the sums adding up.

The only plus is the ability to take in slurry but you would want to be in a strong dairy area with plenty of lads In derogation

If you are a hill farmer with a couple hundred acres where you can draw the 70HA ( 175 acre) then it makes sense on a 40-60 acre farm I am not sure.

I am not sure what the implications of rented land are

n1st

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652212#Comment_121652212

Yes around 6k per year for a 50 or 60 acre farm.

Everyone will have to do their own maths and also decide how they want to farm.

For me 6k per year equates to about the profit on 10 - 15 weanlings per year (buying at 10 months, selling at 20 months). So I decided to reduce my stock to 10 animals. I'll need less grass, I'll most likely sell silage, no fertilizer, possibly no slurry, no feed, less marts, less vets, less profit from cattle, less risk. I'm also changing the way I farm, outwintering instead of summer grazing for example.

Water John

It can be about a system that suits the person. Really found my niche there, at a personal level. Finished organic cattle are at €6/kg ATM, that may not last. You hardly see the vet. I use mob grazing, another guy is talking of outwintering, to each his own, but we can all still learn something from each other.

endainoz

Living shed from agroforestry is the next plan, the idea would be to see if it's possible to save on 6 weeks of winter feeding. Would be a huge saving on feed and bedding.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652818#Comment_121652818

How do you hardly see the vet? What change did you make to reduce vet costs?

I am in first year Conversion and have treated as I always done under vet supervision.

Maybe a difference for me was I never treated cows or 2yr olds for parasites like fluke or stomach so no faecel change for me.

But I had to treat for hoose based on visibile symptoms (this is detailed in my heard plan and the product was purchased in the vet). Same for lice.

The one thing I did reduce/eliminate was the “just in case shot” for antibiotics but that was t that often in any case.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653005#Comment_121653005

Generally organic farms have better nutrients in the ground that the animals can pick up themselves to self regulate. Not always the case of course but thats probably what Walter is referring to I'd imagine. I know myself the vet bill is lower, and the dose bill is almost non existent. The odd dung sample is always good to keep an eye on things though.

massey 265

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652212#Comment_121652212

On your example of a 60 acre farm getting 6k per annum from organic scheme ,you forgot the 1400 top up per annum for inconversion period bringing this to 7470, and that the top up is 2k with 300 per hectare for the 2 years conversion period so thats 9300 approx per annum for first 2 years.The total organic payment for the 5 years on this 60 acre farm example will be 41k.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653638#Comment_121653638

Also conveniently forgot whatever profits come from regular sales or weanlings/year and a halfs etc.

Water John

The stock are under less pressure. Maybe it's me, but I think that helps with TB as well. Their immunity seems to be higher. I also have over 40 days growth in front of stock, with the mob grazing. Lots of various plants and seeds in the diet. I notice red sorrel is their first choice.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653638#Comment_121653638

For the first two years you have not got organic status so all stock sold go into the market at conventional prices not organic.

The top up on 60 acres is equivalent to 23/ acre. It's no magic bullet. Its 100/ head on 14 weanlings. I be expecting to keep more suckler units than that on 60 acres if fairly decent land even in organics.

The 4k extra on the first two years some will get swallowed up on of the initial costs of setting up organics. If you want to make money out of it you have to look at it longterm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653799#Comment_121653799

I did not forget Acres either. If you go into organics it limits you environmental scheme choices. You are probably looking at 2-3k less on a 60 acre holding

Stock sakes are stock sales. From what I see some are going into organics because there present system is struggling with profitability. In the scheme of things. In the organic payment Massey 265 mentioned above seems to be a way of solving a profitability issue. But of the 41k over five years you will be lucky to hold on to half it. After year two it 6k/ year that is what you should do the calculations on

Any animal on the farm when you convert cannot be sold as organic. The beef price is not substantially ahead of ordinary beef. AA and HE cattle vary between 4.8-5.7 in any twelve month period at present. On average how much of an organic bonus is on top of that.

n1st

Finances aside, here are some reasons that someone might switch to organic beef (copied), might be worth considering for some:

**Environmental benefits:**

* **Improved soil health:** Organic farming practices, such as crop rotation and compost application, help to improve soil health by increasing soil organic matter, which in turn improves soil structure, nutrient retention, and water infiltration. This can lead to increased crop yields and reduced reliance on synthetic fertilizers.

* **Reduced pollution:** Organic farming prohibits the use of synthetic pesticides and herbicides, which can harm beneficial insects, pollute water sources, and pose potential health risks to consumers. This can lead to cleaner water and air and a healthier environment for everyone.

* **Enhanced biodiversity:** Organic farming practices, such as avoiding monoculture and maintaining hedgerows, help to promote biodiversity by providing habitat for a variety of plant and animal species. This can help to maintain ecological balance and resilience in the face of climate change and other environmental challenges.

**Animal welfare benefits:**

* **Natural diet:** Organic cattle are fed a diet of grass and other forages, which is closer to their natural diet than the grain-based diet fed to most commercial cattle. This can improve their overall health and well-being.

* **Outdoor access:** Organic cattle have access to pasture and outdoor grazing whenever possible, which allows them to express their natural behaviors and live a more natural life. This can also improve their health and well-being.

* **No antibiotics or growth promoters:** Organic cattle are not given antibiotics or growth promoters, which can help to reduce the risk of antibiotic resistance and promote a more natural production system.

**Consumer benefits:**

* **Healthier food:** Organic beef is generally considered to be healthier than conventional beef, as it is free from synthetic chemicals and antibiotics. This can reduce the risk of health problems, such as antibiotic resistance and foodborne illnesses.

* **Support for sustainable agriculture:** By choosing organic beef, consumers can support a more sustainable agricultural system that is better for the environment, animal welfare, and public health.

* **Taste and quality:** Many people believe that organic beef has a better taste and quality than conventional beef. This is likely due to the fact that organic cattle are fed a more natural diet and are not given antibiotics or growth promoters.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657003#Comment_121657003

The first two words in your post are where your whole argument fails.

Ya if you are interested in organics for all of the above. But @massey 265 and @endainoz were on about the economic benefits.

None of the reasons you gave above are economic reasons to join organics. I am a commercial farmer, I farm to make a profit. The numbers on organics just do not stack up.

As I posted in an earlier post, ya if I had a 200 acre hill farm with 100-150 sheep the numbers add up well.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657138#Comment_121657138

In fairness its stacking up for more and more folks in the beef/sheep sector at least(just look at the latest published rather grim figures for incomes on conventional farms!!), especially the growing numbers doing it part time.

manno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657003#Comment_121657003

I did the organics course last year as I was interested in converting. I had hoped there would be a niche for someone trying to be fairly productive while adhering to the organic scheme rules. By this I mean, using herbal leys, clover etc to fix nitrogen so as to be still able to farm semi intensively but in a way that was environmentally friendly. Overall I found the instructor was completed uninterested in this kind of thinking and only wanted to see land let go wild (he was dead against cultivating grassland). I didn't join in the end but I picked up a few ideas that may be useful. For instance I have been growing herbal leys for a number of years but I found out that I was applying too much nitrogen to them and I now find that the clover grows better with less nitrogen applied. My thoughts on some of your points would be as follows:

You don’t need to be in the organics scheme to practise crop rotation and compost application. Improving soil structure, nutrient retention, etc should be the aim of any progressive farmer regardless of whether they are in the scheme or not.

It is not true that no antibiotics are used in organic production. We were told that one of the key aims of organics is to foster animal welfare so obviously any ailments have to be treated. The veterinary side of things potentially doesn’t change that much other than there is an increased need to seek permission before treating and the withdrawal periods are doubled.

Overall I feel that most people who are joining currently are only interested in the "handy money". Down the line (it has started already), there won't be enough food to feed the world and government policy should be focussed on maintaining production while also adopting more sustainable methods. The EU's unwillingness to use modern science such as gene editing is a big hindrance to advancement of this goal.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657003#Comment_121657003

Might all be true (or might not), but it's also pointing a finger at conventional farming and saying it's wrong, dirty, full of chemicals, unhealthy, etc.

I did the 25-hour intro organic course last year and picked up a few bits from it. And I can see where organic certification and direct payments would be a good fit for some farmers, but I'll try to stick to organic ideas and principles for now and see where I land in a few years.

Lest anyone think I'm somehow giving out about organics: I've zero issue with it and best of luck to anyone on that path. If we all did the same thing, it'd be a boring world. But the organics bombarding from the current Government is for their benefit, not the farmers.

trabpc

Have you calculated what you are missing out on by not going into Acres and Organics? Not having a go just curious. I'm in both myself and would need to turn over 50 to 70 more cattle a year just to cover those organic and Acres payments if i wasn't in those schemes.

Water John

It's a pity if course instructors pass on their biasis in any area, poor work. Yes, the whole regenerative and biological field is there as well. Organic happens to be the only formalised, documented system. It's all about learning, go on farm walks, listen to podcasts; Farming for Nature, IOA. Use some of the practices that suit you. Certainly, the use of inorganic nitrogen can be reduced. It has fallen 31% in the last few years and the stock haven't gone hungry. As Dr. Cristine Jones says, 'the best contribution farming can make to the environment is to stop using artificial fertiliser'.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658266#Comment_121658266

Can you give a bit more detail on how long the cattle will be in the system. Every animal I drop will see a net margin reduction of 300+ and a gross margin of 800+.

Acres has costs.and at least the first years paynent goes in costs and certain actions will see ancillary costs.

I have takenaction that do not generally effect my farm operation its about 3.5k. Organics would cost me about half that payment.

On a 60 acre farm there is a limit to linear actions you can carry out, most area based actions are not compatible with Organics.

In your example I be dropping 15 to 20k+ in net margin.

massey 265

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658380#Comment_121658380

Re the example 60 acre being organic and being compatible with acres ,its possible to draw the max of 7k plus in general scheme by taking the linear options with minimum deduction eg 200 euro from organic payment .i detailed this some time back in either this tread or the acres thread.The costs assosiated with acres are there regardless whether you are in organic scheme or not.

n1st

I don't think anyone is asking anyone to go organic. If anyone is interested then they can learn more and go from there and if not interested then continue as normal.

Personally I don't believe organic beef farming for example will suit everyone. I am a small part time farmer and it will probably suit me.

In terms of food shortages I believe when is comes to beef and lamb at least it's not an essential foodstuff it's a high end product product and "should" be priced accordingly. I've no interest in bringing my cattle to supply Big Mac's and that's where the commercial beef is going, burgers and mince. Irish beef is too good for that.

ACRES, I'm doing the linear actions, hedgerows and stonewalls. The other benefits of Acres didn't interest me anyway.

Water John

I do believe carbon farming will be a thing paid for in the future. Even Head of Teagasc Prof Frank O'Mara mentioned it. But I look too far ahead sometimes. Organic beef, chicken, pig meat, cereals, vegetables and fruit should all be niche, high end products. Sadly, looks like the supermarkets here and abroad are the main route to market and they'll only drive product one way.