organic farming

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764000#Comment_119764000

If you have a sick animal you treat it and call your certifying body afterwards to figure out the status of that particular animal going forward, animal welfare comes first, so you don't wait, you get your vet out and treat as they say.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763698#Comment_119763698

It's never unwise to do costings when thinking of changing over a system. Certainly different schemes fit better for different farms.

I have been on farm walks where the farmer is always asked, are you more profitable today, or when you were farming conventionally? It's always the same answer. From my perspective production doesn't always serve the farmer best. A more modest level of production with significantly reduced cost's is often more profitable, with less stress and hardship, particularly in bad years.

Another eyebrow raising comment was "you will have lost the capacity on your farm and you’re selling your organic product at the commercial price that isn’t even working for commercial production". No one in their right mind would go from a system that isn't making profit, to a more expensive version of the same system to generate a bigger loss.

I don't know the man, nor do I wish to insult him, but that article appears to be riddled with deficit's in information and a strong bias towards productive conventional farming.

893bet

Is the new scheme open on Agrifood yet?

Water John

Another income source that is likely to crop up is carbon sequestration. Organic farmers will be in a good position. Hard to know when and where this will land. i think it will be towards the end of the decade. Any outfit in the country doing carbon sampling to a depth of a metre? 30 cm is a joke. A good analysis now and again in four years time is what I'd be looking for.

Interesting that I'm changing from gas the a heat pump in a house. Ber advisor says I can get paid for the carbon credits.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764567#Comment_119764567

I just know from our own lamb group that it's only in the last year or two that the majority of the lamb got the organic bonus and even at that the bonus has been cut in the last few months. I don't think there's many factories other than ICM seriously processing organic lamb.

Our average price for our lamb last week was 6. 40, organic was 6.90 IF THEY WANTED THEM.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764707#Comment_119764707

I previously said about the scheme it's clearly been beefed up to raise the #'s of organic farms in Ireland to meet a target, and that's fine once a farmer know's it and factors it in. Even on the Organic Production Principles course (which is excellent value in itself) the instructor said you won't make your fortune from organic beef or lamb. So they're straight up about it.

What makes me smile a bit is the existential difficulty reducing production appears to present to some farmers. It's a voluntary scheme after all which won't suit all farms as it has it's own rules to adhere to. I see the acre between the ears is where the problem lies, that if some sort of conventional farming system can't be sledge hammered into an organic package then sure how could it work? Thing is, there's lots of non synthetic chemical ways of ensuring soil fertility. Even I had a disagreement with the instructor because I wasn't going to use lime, which is recommended in organics, but there are other ways to deal with soil PH which fits my farm better and doesn't clash with organic principles.

An example, if I go organic I'll look at using the organic TAMS to build a shed. But, I won't bed it conventionally as I don't have the machinery or dungstead to handle FYM nor do I want the cost of building that dungstead or buying, renting, or contracting that machinery. I've my eye on a different bedding system, if the man attempting it succeeds, then I'll build a shed. If he doesn't I'll continue to out winter. The moral being I'll do the figures and let them decide what's profitable, if my neighbour thinks I'm unproductive I'll allow him to let me live rent free in his head, none of my business what he thinks.

I heard Gabe Brown say one time "All my neighbours laugh at me because I'm different, and that's ok, I laugh at them because they're all the same".

Siamsa Sessions

I did a few very simple sums to compare profit, labour, and paperwork in organics versus conventional. I'm dairy-calf to beef at the moment, but compared suckler enterprises in both systems. Our land is clay/loam, and would be what is described as "good land". Tillage would be an option. I've invested time and money in paddocks, lime/reseeding, water, and layout.

Profit would be about the same for the 30 acres I'm currently farming. I'll be farming 85 in two years time so I might do the sums again then.

Labour might be a bit less after the first year or two during conversion as I get used to the new system (if I converted to organic).

Paperwork would ramp up.

Everyone has to figure what works for them. And watch what others do rather than what they say.

rliston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764604#Comment_119764604

Expected to open tomorrow or Friday.

Jjameson

It’s unfortunate that there’s no option to farm conventional livestock organically.

it would suit my cattle enterprise just fine.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119766413#Comment_119766413

what would the difference be?

I assume you buy in all stock so that is the challenge?

I think it will be easier find organic weanlings or yearling soon enough. They are there at the moment but going conventional too often.

farmer to farmer sales are needed cutting out the mart.

Cran

In what way? Is it you want to feed conventional feed & farm the land organically and get the payments?

youllbemine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679617#Comment_119679617

Came across something similar in work today where business owners are changing from high GWP refrigerant gases to low GWP gases and able to improve the BER score. Thought it was madness altogether. This is what happens when you get accountants involved in the environment.

Jjameson

I’d like to be able to go buy my cattle conventionally. (Angus and Hereford dairy crosses would suit fine). Locally as I do now. When I want them, and finish them”organically”. With no meal. After 8 to 12 months killed off “organic” grass there’d be no more residue of anything in the meat than any other.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119767570#Comment_119767570

Well that’s not going to happen ever.

But I think forums like boards and other groups offer opportunities for lads not breeding to have access to organic stock to finish or just meet the minimum head count to collect the payment if that’s their wish.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119767570#Comment_119767570

Jjam

That is where a grass fed beef label would come in.

It's interesting that we see the Department and the processors colluding on a subsidized U24 month beef slaughter system. However what would be much more beneficial to Irish farmers would be a grass fed label. They managed to cobble together an U24 month criteria in 3-4 months but two years later we are still waiting for a grass fed label and definition.

The processors k ow the minute it comes in they are over a barrell. The feedlots cannot supply it

minerleague

Might be one for conspiracy theory but are the Dept making entry to ACRES harder to nudge people towards organic?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119767570#Comment_119767570

Yeah know what you're saying but not allowed, If I join organic I'll have 2 years of cattle to kill farmed organically that will be classed conventional as well as all cows currently on farm

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768424#Comment_119768424

Grass fed would rule out a lot of farmers as well as feedlots,

Any way no one minds eating pork or chicken or any other intensive produced food as it's cheaper,

Processors sell meat by the 40ft fridge, organics sells their product by the box.

blue5000

All I can say on this really is that no meal or fertiliser sales reps have called here yet looking for money since BPS money hit my account. How many conventional farmers can say that?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768673#Comment_119768673

All bill paid, 20% of stock to be sold. 85% of replacements purchased. No overdraft used at any stage this year. Account pays all tax deductible expenses heating, electricity, phone, car insurance/tax etc except for car diesel used. A substantial 4 figure tax bill for 2021 . In the process of making a pension contribution in the other half name to cancel the tax bill. And there will still be a surplus

Going on the batter tomorrow night

🤣🤣🤣🤣

endainoz

In fairness, I think it's great to see a decent discussion on this thread about people being serious about converting or at the very least have a robust chat about the pros and cons. I remember joining this thread before I converted in 2018 and there was very little activity on here. I know the improved payment rates have been a big factor, but still it's nice to see.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768673#Comment_119768673

Yeah but think of the down side, all those branded wooly hats and gilets you have to buy for yourself, those third world sweat shops don't keep themselves open yanno....... 😏

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768479#Comment_119768479

I've lost count of the number of emergency measures from government over the years to bail out failing intensive pig and poultry units. Both seem to be in perpetual crisis in terms of margins and rising inputs costs. Some lessons for other sectors there me thinks.

youllbemine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768958#Comment_119768958

Didn't the IFA's very own Tim Cullinane make a very substantial profit in 2021? But yes, you're correct re bailouts.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768958#Comment_119768958

Every subsidy is a bailout for failing enterprises, few farmers could survive without bailouts (subsidies) every year.

I'm not criticising subsidies but none of us can take the high horse on bailouts. pigs would be the least subsidised of farm enterprises, Organics could be the most and if not it'd definitely be high in the league. I love subsidies, always aimed to maximise them here

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769076#Comment_119769076

Subsidies are not there to bailout farmers.

They bailout the public. They are purely there to keep food affordable for the consumer (and intermediate profiteers).

893bet

I see the scheme is now open.

I think Organics is a potential retirement for a lot of people or an opportunity to cut back.

i think the factories will be delighted also as they can drop back the organic premium as people are locked in for 5 years and inflation is a decent excuse (and maybe a valid one) which may see a move away for consumer towards cheaper meat cuts. I think the average organic buyer can probably afford it though as it is typically the reserve of the more well off in my eyes.

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768831#Comment_119768831

Are you referring to my Ralph Lauren gilet? I find it’s usually better to buy one quality item that lasts for years than 10 sh1te items. The hat I wear on the farm these days probably came from a sweatshop, it has a primark (Penny’s) label, but I found it on the rocks at Doolin ferry carpark😜

Sorry I have no answer for Bass, except to ask do you mind me asking what company is the pension fund with? I might have to look a bit deeper into it myself. Fair play to you for having all the bills cleared, there’s not too many beef farmers that can say the same.

The dept have 256m earmarked for organic farming, we might as well make the most of it while it is there. But I think we are forgetting that organic farming isn’t really all about the money, it’s more to do with the soil, the biodiversity on our farms and trying to pass it on to the next generation in a better condition than we got it in.

Jjameson

Its a quare aul ide. You can’t take nutrients from soil perpetually without putting them back. Conventional farming mines nutrients/recycles them from treated sewage to replace them.

if I were to go into it I would be relying on a combination of conventional straw (the fert within came from a bag) or imported slurry(the fert within came from a bag) glyphosphate will feature in both.

but to be fair the more prevalent this thinking becomes the better. Less production. Better prices.

a man with a full belly has multitudes of problems on his mind ,a man with an empty belly only has one.

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768479#Comment_119768479

They certainly do. Lazy inept one size fits all marketing has ruby red, lean yellow fat high omega 3 grass fed beef lumped in lumped beef fattened on gm maize imported from places with no standards of production. With residues of chemicals long banned in the EU.

Bord bia promote all Irish beef from bord bia farms in the uk as “grass fed”.

Jjameson

This is the label that 95% of Irish beef qualifies for on the basis of their lifetime 90% fresh weight grass, or forage land 10% concentrate feed. (Don’t be feeding hay or straw lads your doing yourselves if Larry the regulator asks the hard questions 😂)