organic farming

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119486305#Comment_119486305

Even if the synthesised protein from bacteria becomes a cheaper option then surely farmers would need to be engaged not targeted in his style to embrace biodiversity re establishment etc

Birdnuts

Just looking at the reaction to that article on Twitter 2day - it appears Monbiot has annoyed as many Ecologists, Conservationists etc. as farmers with that extreme vegan nonsense. There cannot be any argument in this country at least that extensive beef farming is the most benign and environmentally beneficial land use atm.

coolshannagh28

Monbiot was on prime time recently debating this issue with Tim Cullinane; Monbiot wiped the floor with him using agressive , logical skills much like Liam Doran an ex head of the nurses union used to do when arguing his point on the media.

I may not have agreed with Monbiot but he is a brilliant performer and in this day and age thats all that matters.

The likes of Monbiot can’t see the risk associated with a vertically integrated centralised food system. How does that benefit individuals? As it is there are four major players that control the likes of wheat and soya etc.

If he was arguing purely for better biodiversity supported by changes in farming methods that eliminated run off and also developed habitats then he would get farmers on board.

He argues that animal based agri produces more emissions than air travel and car use combined.

Farming needs to get out ahead and be a front runner in reducing emissions and encouraging biodiversity.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483347#Comment_119483347

Taking longer to raise means less animals over a given time

The fool (or bad actor) is promoting intensification....

Put them all in a shed = more animals and more land area dedicated to growing feed then + lower prices

Wouldn't surprise me if guys like this we're getting industry funding....

Huxley seems to have been more correct than Orwell.

Stationmaster

Any good sites/resources etc available or out there for weighing up the pros and cons of going organic or not?

Have 15 suckler cows on approx 60 acres in a disadvantaged area and not sure what to do. I winter out and don't give any meal bar a bag here and there for bringing them in. My big problem I imagine would be cutting silage as I don't have my own slurry so what would I use for fertilizer?

I don't put out fertilizer on anything other than the silage fields as it is so I feel I'm nearly organic anyway and if the money is good then why not? Also, how do I get around dosing cattle and sheep for fluke/worms?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509304#Comment_119509304

I'm only half way through the course at the minute so others can provide more practical detail. You mentioned out wintering, poaching is a huge no-no, so think whether your land can out winter stock without any poaching.

You can import slurry, though I think there is standards around the management of the source farm.

You don't need to "get around" dosing. You can dose. BUT.... the withdrawal periods are double the stated period on the dose, so 56 days if the pack states 28 etc. You will need to do an animal health plan with your vet before conversion stating known "disease" risks, so you can with FEC testing dose if needed. BUT..... (again).......... You will need to think a little differently about parasite management, trying not to graze at risk fluke areas when it's damp (I know...), breeding from stock that are thriving and not getting **** tails etc. Our tutor talked a lot about diatomaceous earth (DE), which he sprinkles on and feeds to his alpacas against parasites.

So there are other parasite strategies in organics which are preferable to dosing BUT as he says animal welfare is king, so you must treat animals that need it.

If you haven't done the course, it's a requirement for the scheme, it sounds like you would get benefit out of it for decision making about the scheme if nothing else.

Organic production principles course link https://nots.ie/courses/

blue5000

How much silage do you need? A planner might be the best one to do the sums for you.

Egg counts will give you an idea on whether you need to dose or not. You are still allowed use them but with longer withdrawal periods. Good herdsman don’t allow some of the doses, don’t want to name what they are without being 100% sure which ones. As hq says doing the course yourself would be a good start. He types faster than me too!

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509478#Comment_119509478

Great info and advise - thanks a million. I've looked into the courses a bit alright so will follow up and get one done.

On the outwintering, the alternative isn't really an option for me to be honest with my numbers and, to be honest, with the way I want to do my farming. I know there are obvious downsides but I find the health of the herd in general and definitely the health and quality of the calves benefit greatly from being out all the time. The do poach a bit obviously on the ground they're wintered on so I will have to see how |I can best manage that.

Getting faecel samples done too as I'd much prefer to pinpoint exactly what needs to be done rather than dose/inject indiscriminately throughout the year so I think that should work well with the organic side of things.

As I said, the main thing I have to try and figure out is what will grow my grass for silage! Anyone use supersoil or similar products?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509832#Comment_119509832

I would say don't underestimate poaching as regards being a big issue, organics is about soil health. Met a former organic inspector back in 2019 who poached a small area due to trying something new and got a €2k penalty.

That's why the course will be helpful, informing you whether organics will fit what you want to do, or not. I know at least one participant in the course I'm on has been advised his stocking level will either have to reduce OR he will end up spending a fortune on meal. The natural carrying capacity of the land has been mentioned numerous times.

I don't mean to bang on about it, but just to illustrate that these are important parts of the scheme where there is annual and also spot inspections.

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510738#Comment_119510738

I'm definitely well understocked but sounds like the poaching could be an issue so for me even though the cattle are restricted to about 6 acres in total over the winter. I'll definitely have to look into it more and will do the course.

Thanks again - some really helpful information there in just a few posts and most appreciated.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510776#Comment_119510776

Maximum stocking level in organics will be 170/kg/N/year so something like 2.5/6 suckler cows hectare I think (don't rely on anything I say in court please! 😀 ) BUT that's different to and separate from poaching. I'll shut up about it now.

As to soil fertility, lots of different/new ideas on the Biofarm conferences, think it's €50 to access the recordings.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510776#Comment_119510776

I’m not certain on this but if you’re out wintering in Organics i think you have to have a minimum of one hectare per livestock unit available to the animals at all times.

I hear there's to be an organic pavilion at the ploughing this year, guess I'll be going. Wonder can I get a cattle prod in time to fend off the hordes... That or I'll be the one carrying the electric fly swatter.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119517868#Comment_119517868

It'll be full of tyre kickers alright. Still though, if they get a 5% conversion rate it'll be a positive.

Exams tonight, jaysus the panic 😂

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119520871#Comment_119520871

Never heard of anyone failing it yet. Did you get to meet up face to face or was it all on line? Our group met up only once for the exam and a farm walk. Very hard to recognize ppl in real life after only ever seeing them on zoom.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119521776#Comment_119521776

All online, just out of it this minute. Might meet some of them at the ploughing on the Tuesday.

Stationmaster

There's a walk tomorrow evening in Offaly, details were in last weeks journal, but I can't find details of exactly where it's on bar what was mentioned - Banagher, Co. Offaly. Anyone know anything else about it? I rang the ACA and could only leave a voicemail but they haven't rang me back - they're organising it. Thanks!

UPDATE - Just got email with details!

Siamsa Sessions

I just signed up to do the intro course with Teagasc. Starting on Tues, 4-Oct, and then the next four Tuesdays after that, with a farm walk on the final Tuesday.

Anyone on here doing it?

I'm attending to try learn something and get my head tuned into what it might be like. I don't plan on going for certification at this stage, but maybe I'll come away a convert 😁

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579021#Comment_119579021

Which course is that? I've driven myself demented trying to decide if I'll convert or not so trying to gather up as much info as I can! I'm going to give that poor farmer in Offaly an awful grilling tomorrow evening!!

wrangler

Here's a poster

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119580919#Comment_119580919

It’s “level 5 organic farming principles”. On Zoom from 10am to 1pm, every Tuesday, for four weeks and a farm walk the last day. But it doesn’t say where the farm walk in on. I’m in the south-east so hopefully it’ll be around this region someplace.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581567#Comment_119581567

Link?

how much is that?

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119581688#Comment_119581688

It’s this course: https://www.teagasc.ie/rural-economy/organics/training/

Costs €220

Birdnuts

Interesting interview in the farming indo last week with an organic tillage farmer. While yields are a bit less than conventional, its actually significantly more profitable due to the near elimination of chemical input costs.

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578950#Comment_119578950

Well, did you go?, was there myself, - big crowd, probably will apply this time.

Cran

Was there myself, couldn’t get over the crowd .

Silverdream

I'll be signing up to the Organics scheme myself. Just waiting on the advisor to complete the paperwork. I'm only going into it for the handy money no other reason. I was always going to be reducing stocking rate as I got older, the current climate has only sped up the process.

At the end of the day Organic farming is the most wasteful use of our land resource, its all half truths and lies. Any Organic farm I saw had an underlying hint of bypassing the rules :- using a bit of bag fertilizer, using conventional nuts/ration, buying in conventional Silage/Hay. Selling Organic cattle as conventional!!!

They wouldn't have to be doing this if it was a true system.

893bet

Not been stackable with Acres is a negative.