organic farming

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616195#Comment_119616195

You'd want to make certain by asking one of the certification bodies, Organic Trust or Irish Organic Association

Cran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616195#Comment_119616195

Not sure you would pass the stocking rate requirement , and wouldn’t be classed as tillage either

Cran

Can’t see any dairy farmers converting to organic outside of ones for belief reasons, numbers will never add up

mauser77

Afaik i don't think this would be possible organic is generally a closed system so your bringing ur p and k from a conventional farm into an organic farm while allowed as a once off here or there to correct an issue its not best practice and i cant see a licence been issued if that was your business model. But its a question for one of the bodies to answer

youllbemine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616607#Comment_119616607

Pretty sure I heard on the 'Organic Matters' podcast hosted by Hannah Quinn Mulligan that there are approximately 66 organic dairy farmers in Ireland.

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615373#Comment_119615373

BT I think it will work if you have half the organic area in RC and the other half of the organic area in tillage eg oats. Sow the RC while in conversion for the first 2 years, then put oats in for year 3 and RC on the other half. The oats should get you through the hoop, provided you only have organic oats on the farm. Winter oats seem to be easier to grow than spring oats.

Depending on soil fertility then wether you can import slurry on to your organic area or not. As someone already said slurry has to be from a non intensive enterprise, ie grass fed cattle is ok, but not pig slurry. Grazing the RC is not worthwhile, but may be possible with non organic stock, with permission and provided they are not dosed. I’m open to correction on the grazing though.

893bet

https://assets.gov.ie/231431/67197a34-27f4-45c4-b712-a5ff1316dffd.pdf

Appendix 6 shows acres interaction with organic. Not worth the bother if in organic is my take.

massey 265

The only options if in organic

without organic payment deductions are linear options eg new hedge planting .tree planting and less.The grass margin option could be a runner as electric fence will suffice if bovines only.deductions from organic payments will be minimal as 10000 mtrs in a hectare.

blue5000

Doesn’t seem to add up for me anyway, I already pay €700 odd for organic reg, what’s the point in giving money to a planner, risking another inspection and possible penalties and a cut on some of my organic payments? My farm probably suits acres 100% but the scheme doesn’t suit me. I think the double bubble has burst.

Laying hedges or dry stone walling is slave labour for me and costs too much for someone else to do it.

Water John

Looking at the ACRES scheme, for anyone considering Organic, the Organic wins hands down. There are only a few overlapping in ACRES that suit me, an organic farmer. Barn owl, catch crops, traditional orchard and tree planting. Total, a bit over €3K/year.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616607#Comment_119616607

After talking to him last week, I called over to his farm today for a chat.

One of the unexpected impacts of having lots of clover and spreading no synthetic N is that the cows are now eating any docks in the fields. He reckons the N makes them sour so the cows don’t eat them. But no N means they’re “softer” and more palatable.

Anyone else see this impact? Or is there an alternative explanation for cows eating docks in no N scenarios?

tractorporn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616762#Comment_119616762

That's it exactly you can do it but it won't qualify for payment as red clover is classed as forage and as such you have to make the minium stocking rate.

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119628270#Comment_119628270

I suspect the ground is getting looser and more free draining with more biological life in the soil. Docks only like compacted more abused ground. Silage ground is their forte. Longer periods without the hoof on the ground and more chance to go to seed.

Stock are eating docks here and there's a bit (small bit) of N going out.

Have ground that got no treatment, no concoctions, no fert, nothing. And it went from covered in docks last year to nothing this year. Grazed a few times last year and a few times this year. Saying that it's the size of a big garden. Not a big area. But it surprised my father when he was beggering last year that it was "a holy show".

Edit: if I think where you were in wexford? A small bit further and you'd have been in my place.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119628745#Comment_119628745

I was only 5 miles from home here in mid-county Waterford. But I’d love to call to Wexford at some stage and see some of what you’re at. Are you far from New Ross?

I might be at the mart some day and could call if it suited you

Water John

The nitrogen and phosporous make the docks bitter. I mob graze and they eat them. Was at an organic farm walk at Pollard farm a few months ago, near New Ross. For those of you in that part of the country worth watching out for the next one. 160 cows going organic.

Siamsa Sessions

I’m starting the Teagasc intro course next week. I’m doing it to learn something and maybe get my head into looking at the farm (and life?) in a different way. I don’t plan on chasing certification but wouldn’t rule it out either.

Out of interest, does anyone know what type of suckler cow is popular in organics? Is it all HE and AA or is it a similar mix of everything, as in conventional sucklers?

Thanks

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119628270#Comment_119628270

Ours always eat the docks here 🤷🏻‍♂️

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679617#Comment_119679617

Cows can be whatever you want, aa and Hereford would be the most popular bulls though. Main reason for this is easier finishing off grass. Other advantage of aa is no dehorning, no anaesthetic so less paper work and questions at an inspection

Water John

NOTS also run the Organic Principles course around the country. Check their website to see if anyone close to you.

Good Herdsman don't want BB.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679617#Comment_119679617

Don't know about the Teagasc course, but it may be suggested an animal that does best off grass/forage alone is a better route due to the cost of organic feed (rule of thumb 2x the price of conventional). Avoiding animals that may be more likely to poach land may be another mention.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681695#Comment_119681695

BB is bull beef?

or Belgian blue?

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679617#Comment_119679617

I am on that course myself next week and plan entering the next tranch.

Plan to maintain a small AI bred LM herd.

Cran

Question for everyone considering entering. What’s the plan for meal feeding, is it buy it in, grow your own or try not use any?

Water John

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682136#Comment_119682136

Belgian blue, steaks are too large for packaging.

The possible desire for marbling is something to consider in selecting breeds. It's a subject for discussion. Possibly avoid extreme continental breeds. The opinion of the outlets that anyone intends to supply should be asked for.

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682275#Comment_119682275

Probably try and use less, ( change bull to traditional breeds - make better silage - try some red clover silage for weanlings). Will have to buy some as don't think have land for tillage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682275#Comment_119682275

Try not to use any.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682309#Comment_119682309

Wholecrop silage is used on many organic farms and seems to be work well going on the farm visits I've been on. Grow a few acres myself(oats/barley mix) and its powerfull stuff for finishing stock

lanod2407

I did it with NOTS. I'd recommend them. Solid course material and good instructors.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682683#Comment_119682683

Same as that

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682650#Comment_119682650

Seen that on a few farm walks, do you plough to establish ? Or can you disc field ( will you have lot of weeds when you cant spray?) Normally finish off grass not out of shed - would this rule out wholecrop silage ?? If demand was there might switch to selling live at 2yo

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119684130#Comment_119684130

You can do both depending on what works best on your own ground. We have shallow soils so I have found discing works best here and the great thing about oats in particular is their natural suppression of many weeds which i noticed actually gets better after every year of cropping. I found the trial and error with WBC before this was usefull for eventually deciding what worked best for me

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682275#Comment_119682275

From what I have seen in walks combi crop is supposed to be a good option. Some of the lads doing organic finishing use it. It looks to be a really good option based on the condition of the stock.

Organic farmers are really impressive from the walks and talks I have seen. You really have to think outside the box.

Fellows are inclined to dismiss organic beef at the minute with the relatively high beef price at the minute but there seems to be a good market in Europe for it and if sterling continues to tank then it could be even more of a winner.

893bet

what’s the current price per kilo for organic?

Centrepassage

When do you get paid in the organic scheme. Is it at the end of your first year.

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687408#Comment_119687408

Yes, October not sure if you get 100% at that time though. You won't know if you are in the scheme until late in the year also even though they expect you to farm organically from jan 1st. Think I heard 5.60 for beef price ???

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688411#Comment_119688411

Is that 5.60 base as such with Qa and grade bonus on top or is QA irrelevant as such for organic as you need to maintain past the QA standard as such either way.

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688510#Comment_119688510

Think it was a base price, the + or - from that may be somewhat different to conventional ( upto 36 month allowed ) They do want a min weight that you may be penalized for being under. Not sure about HE or AA breed bonuses.

FarmerBrowne

If you join organics and a non organic cow has a calf, can that calf be considered fully organic (provided it is reared in organic way)? Said cow will never be organic but does she have to be moved on from the herd within the 2 year conversion time frame? I don't want to calve cows really because it doesn't suit but I am guessing organic weinlings will have a crazy demand from people with same mindset as myself.

blue5000

The calf is organic if it’s born 3 months after you start farming organically. I think the 3 months is to cover anything the cow got in the last 3 months of pregnancy eg non organic meal etc. I hope you are right on the big demand for organic weanlings!

edit; the cow doesn’t have to be moved on in the 2 years conversion period but you are right she can’t be sold as organic. Not a huge difference in price between organic cull cows and conventional cull cows at present anyway.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704181#Comment_119704181

Doesn't the calf also have to finish the conversion period to be considered organic?

FarmerBrowne

Thanks @blue5000. Another question; if you didn't want to winter the cattle can you sell them in the backend and still fulfill the required stocking rate. For example from March to October (8 months) you stock at .25 units and you average better than the required .15 over the 12 months or do you have to have animals 12 months for every month?

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704316#Comment_119704316

I think they have reduced the minimum stocking now ( .1 ?? )

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704316#Comment_119704316

AFAIK you don’t have to carry over the winter, just have the minimum stocking rate for the year. TB in the back end might catch you out though.

HQ the calf is considered organic once he’s born 3 months after conversion commenced. He can be sold to a fully converted organic farm and be finished there. That’s my understanding of it anyway but you might want to check it out further. I’m going on my own situation where my calves born this year can be sold organically. I am in the second year of conversion.

893bet

Larry won’t be long sorting the premium price on the beef with all the extra farmers joining.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119705143#Comment_119705143

There might be no substantial increase in production. Most seem to be joining to draw the extra payments. While on the sheep side it may see an increase in the beef side lads joing and stocking at a minimal level or only keeping a few stores will not see any glut

FarmerBrowne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119705474#Comment_119705474

Thats my intention anyways, keep the bare minimum to draw the payments.

manjou

The calf becomes organic the same day as farm becomes organic. An organic farmer can buy the calf but can't kill calf organically until its organic as far as I can remember. Price of 5.60 is flat price all in for r grade no qa or breed bonus. Stocking rate is same as for anc at .1 so don't need many to draw down payment. So 5 lus on 100 acres

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119705474#Comment_119705474

I was on my first organics course webinar this week. The instructor said 30% of organic beef is sold thru conventional markets. If extra lads convert to organic, there's every chance much of the additional stock will be sold as conventional.

So, I agree with you - no real increase in organic beef being produced. It might be farmed organically, but it'll be sold as conventional. If anything, there will be slightly less conventional beef production as farmers reduce stocking rates if they convert.

893bet

https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/news/organic-beef-premium-set-to-be-eroded-as-kill-figures-rise-42037000.html

They are comping at the bit to drop the price.

manjou

On last inspection inspector said about 70% of weanlings sold convential on farms he inspected.