Do you think the Iona Institute are homophobic?

floggg

No

marienbad wrote: »

So how come we never hear them denouncing it in hetero relationships ?

Or blow jobs?

A Scoundrel

No

SpaceTime wrote: »

Can you imagine from a 2014 Irish perspective if you were considering investing in several European countries and had to move to one of them and one of them would actually insist that you couldn't use contraception with your own partner and that you'd have to 'accept whatever children God sent you'....
Meanwhile, you couldn't get divorced, even if your marriage had fallen apart or even worse, if your marriage had turned violent and you'd an abusive spouse.
And you couldn't be gay/bi either and (even if not very heavily enforced) you risked prosecution for it..
Meanwhile, the place was over-run with nuns and priests doing things that you'd normally expect to be state / social services e.g. education, health, aspects of welfare etc.

It makes modern day Russia sound quite liberal.

Speaking as someone who had 2 lesbian "aunts", growing up in the 1980s/ 90s, and knew gay people, and had relations 'living in sin', and one 'illegitimate' cousin with no noticeable problems, I think we're in danger of over-egging the pudding here.

Just the same as we shouldn't look back on those days with nostalgia, neither should we be aggrandize the moral domination that, in retrospect, we assume to have been so pervasive.

In fact, most Irish people probably haven't changed a lot. There is nothing particularly unique about the current generations that accept gay people, divorcees, and life outside the traditional family model. Maybe the state has been slow to catch up with ordinary, decent Irish people; I accept that.

But lets be fair to the past. It may not have been a liberal utopia, but neither was it as bleak and unforgiving as people may think.

SpaceTime

Speaking personally, I know of people who were run out of the country due to marital break ups and never set foot in Ireland again.

I also know of several people who had kids 'out of wedlock' and ended up in the laundry system and literally got on the next boat to England and never even looked back. I mean to the point that they adopted entirely new identities and deliberately worked to get rid of their Irish accents! That's how serious it was.

I met gay people in the USA who had moved from Ireland to California in the 1970s and pretty much had no intention of ever going back and I've certainly heard of similar situations in France and the Netherlands.

I think there's an equal risk of under-egging the pudding too based on a view point of having grown up in a relatively liberal context.

If you had the resources, and you grew up in a relatively liberal family, you never had to encounter the church-state services or if you did they were the nicer aspects of them with the smiley friendly nuns in posh hospitals / schools.

If worst came to worst, you could also afford to do things like skip over to England for a few months or whatever needed to happen.

Also, you had a situation where I think many middle class people in Ireland lived in a bit of a separate bubble. We went to different schools and used different hospitals and really had quite a separate existence to people who had to deal with the harsh realities of the system.

Also, depending on where you were living it was a very different world. If you grew up in large urban areas like Dublin and Cork (and possibly other cities) things were definitely a lot more liberal, especially in the wealthier suburbs.

There were two parallel universes. It's still reflected in the legacy of the messed up health system btw!

So, I think we need to be careful that we don't just gloss over how bad things were either.

The main thing is that we need to learn from the mistakes of what happened in that period and do something about ensuring they never reoccur and are not still going on!

For me anyway, complacency isn't an option and I think these kinds of things have to be challenged at all times. I would rather live in a country that I can be proud of than one that has all sorts of stuff that we don't talk about swept under the carpet.

marienbad

No

A Scoundrel wrote: »

Speaking as someone who had 2 lesbian "aunts", growing up in the 1980s/ 90s, and knew gay people, and had relations 'living in sin', and one 'illegitimate' cousin with no noticeable problems, I think we're in danger of over-egging the pudding here.

Just the same as we shouldn't look back on those days with nostalgia, neither should we be aggrandize the moral domination that, in retrospect, we assume to have been so pervasive.

In fact, most Irish people probably haven't changed a lot. There is nothing particularly unique about the current generations that accept gay people, divorcees, and life outside the traditional family model. Maybe the state has been slow to catch up with ordinary, decent Irish people; I accept that.

But lets be fair to the past. It may not have been a liberal utopia, but neither was it as bleak and unforgiving as people may think.

Sorry ,Scoundrel , I lived through it, or should I say I was beaten and terrorised through it. It was every bit as bleak and unforgiving as you can possibly imagine.

Sure it affected different parts of society differently but in the main if you were anyway out of the mainstream it was appalling.

Whatever about politicians I go down on bended knee in praise of Donogh O'Malley and free education in 1969. With education and information came change.

Ash.J.Williams

No

marienbad wrote: »

Sorry ,Scoundrel , I lived through it, or should I say I was beaten and terrorised through it. It was every bit as bleak and unforgiving as you can possibly imagine.

Sure it affected different parts of society differently but in the main if you were anyway out of the mainstream it was appalling.

Whatever about politicians I go down on bended knee in praise of Donogh O'Malley and free education in 1969. With education and information came change.

We were discussing 80's beatings the other day in regarding to music, 80's dublin was notorious for beatings in the heavy metal/goth/indie scenes...i'm not sure if the gay scene was on a par with that. Roving gangs of pre skanger gangs picking on everyone particularly at or outside gigs.

eorpach

Here's a funny line over on theJournal.ie that has 762 likes, and 49 dislikes so far:

"The Iona institute threatening to sue over being called homophobic is like Fossett’s circus threatening to sue over being called clowns."

Its a response to the open letter to RTÉ today by a Barrister calling on them to make a statement about their actions following The Saturday Night Show: http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/gay-rights-rory-oneill-panti-bliss-iona-institute-homophobia-1288277-Jan2014/

The open letter has been copied to the Council of Europe's Commissioner for Human Rights.

Zillah

No

Don't forget to throw in your two cents, too!
complaints@rte.ie

Just a single paragraph explaining why you disagree with their behaviour would be great if you're feeling lazy.

Ash.J.Williams

No

Zillah wrote: »

Don't forget to throw in your two cents, too!
complaints@rte.ie

Just a single paragraph explaining why you disagree with their behaviour would be great if you're feeling lazy.

As RTE are not allowed to respond to this, you will need to send a complaint to the BAI.

(you still need to make the complaint to RTE first)

Sarky

No

SpaceTime wrote: »

I know for many of us when we think back to the 1980s it was all nostalgia and the Den.. zig & zag and Bosco and all those positive things.

I think The Den deserves much credit for helping things begin to change. Thanks to Zig&Zag, a whole lot of kids were introduced to the concept of talking back to authority figures, something pretty much unheard of in the 80's. You really need to watch some of the Den stuff alongside the more mainstream Irish TV of the time to appreciate just how new and dangerous it was to people used to getting their way.

eorpach

Not sure if it's been discussed above, the below is a thoroughly well-researched piece on WHOM exactly are the figures behind the Iona Institute. Highly recommended reading.

In the interests of balance and of discourse, I'm reproducing it below - please accept my apologies for the long posting, folks.

___________________________________

What Exactly Is the Iona Institute?
Posted by Bock on June 2, 2013

The Iona Institute promotes the place of marriage and religion in society. We defend the continued existence of publicly-funded denominational schools. We also promote freedom of conscience and religion.

You might have noticed in recent years that our national broadcaster, RTÉ, very often invites a speaker for the self-styled Iona Institute on chat shows, whenever the topic is something that the Catholic church might have a view on. Frequently, a member of the Iona Institute is invited to comment on current topics, such as the recent RTÉ documentary on abuse in creches. Indeed, not too long ago, on a morning radio show, RTÉ had two members of the Iona Institute out of the four participants.

It’s not clear why a private lobby group is given so much access to the publicly-funded airwaves, but it seems that there are those in RTÉ management who believe such a facility should be afforded, for reasons best known to themselves.

Titles count for a lot in Ireland, a country where bluff and bluster can go a long way, and the Iona Institute is a most impressive-sounding name, carrying overtones of saintliness combined with the suggestion of profound learning.

The word Institute evokes a place where world-renowned scholars convene to debate the great issues in a spirit of open-mindedness and to conduct world-standard research, but if you thought that about the Iona Institute, you’d be wrong.

This being Ireland, we have no controls over what words people use to describe the companies they set up, by contrast with, for instance, the UK, where they’re very fussy indeed about who can and cannot describe themselves as an Institute. The guidance page at Companies House defines sensitive words and expressions as those which could, among other things, suggest business pre-eminence, a particular status, or a specific function.

They even publish a list of sensitive words, including Institute. Institutes, they say, are organisations that typically undertake research at the highest level or are professional bodies of the highest standing.

Since Iona isn’t a professional body, the only other criterion it might possibly meet would be research at the highest level, but after its disastrously misconceived submission to the Constitutional Convention, I think we can safely discount that too.

Iona is simply a pressure group funded from sources undisclosed.

It has an address at 23 Merrion Square, Dublin 2, not far from a real Institute: the RIAI. It has a board of directors and it has two staff, although its most recently available details show only one staff member, and in recent times, none at all. It also has four people with the nebulous title of Patron, which I suspect was chosen for its pomposity rather than its accuracy, two of whom frequently appear on RTÉ chat shows where presenters are not scrupulous about explaining their association with the pressure group.

I thought it might be useful to explore the structure of the lobby group, perhaps with a view to provoking further discussion on the reasons why a privately-funded assortment of individuals might be so favoured by our publicly-funded broadcaster.

To start with, I thought it might be helpful to list the directors and staff, past and present, where information on them is available. My sources are principally Iona’s own website and Duedil which is an extremely useful tool for looking up details of companies registered in Ireland or the UK.

David Quinn is the public face of the lobby group. He has views on everything from same-sex marriage to childcare. For all we know, he might also have Catholic views on the weather, on ballistics and on the odd probity of tricycles, but in any case he seems to have unlimited access to RTÉ. Contrary to popular belief, though, he didn’t set up the lobby group. Indeed, he appears to be no more than a paid employee.

There’s also Tom O’Gorman, employed as a researcher. He’s described as a former journalist with The Voice Today, but I have no information on him or on that elusive organ. I’m sure he’s a thoroughly nice chap.

The four “patrons” are as follows:

Patricia Casey, a psychiatrist.

Breda O’Brien, a teacher.

James Sheehan, a surgeon, and co-owner of several hugely-profitable private hospitals, including the Blackrock Clinic.

Vincent Twomey, a priest.


According to company records, Lolek Limited (trading as The Iona Institute) was founded in 2006 by Andrew O’Connell (29) and Susan Hegarty (30). O’Connell is the PR man for the Presentation Brothers and Hegarty lectures at the Catholic St Patrick’s College, Drumcondra, a training school for primary teachers. Lolek, incidentally, is the Polish diminutive of Karol, as in Karol Wojtyla, otherwise known as Pope John Paul II. It has had eleven directors since its foundation, three of whom are retired, including both its founders. Another two, for some reason, are not mentioned in the list of directors on the Iona website.


Name Age Background Comment Other relevant directorships

Sean Ascough 46 Engineer
The New Evangelisation Trust
Clonmacnois Publishing Limited
Silverstream Priory

Maeve Kelleher 48 Described on Iona website as a stay-at-home mother Director of 13 property companies

Patrick Kenny 38 Marketing lecturer
The New Evangelisation Trust
Benedicta Communications Limited
Silverstream Priory

John Reid 54 Solicitor.President of Legatus, Dublin chapterKnight of the Holy Sepulchre.

Tom Ascough 42 Engineer
Spirit Radio Limited
Clonmacnois Publishing Limited

John Murray 49 Lecturer at Mater Dei Institute, a religious college.

Mark Hamilton 57 Principal of Rockbrook Park, a private school founded by Opus Dei members which retains close links to that organisation including an Opus Dei chaplain. Not mentioned on Iona website.

Maria Steen(previously known as Maria Davin) 37 Barrister. Architect. Not mentioned on Iona website

Andrew O’Connell Founder 35 PR man for the Presentation Brothers Retired from directorship.

Brendan Purcell 71 Priest Retired from directorship.

Susan Hegarty Founder 36 Geography lecturer Retired from directorship.

Stay-at-home mother Maeve Kelleher shares the boards of some companies with Garrett Kelleher, a property developer and owner of St Patrick’s Athletic football club. These are Baynall Properties Limited, Cawston Limited, Mancar Limited, Mandala Limited, Saffia Limited, Cwd Properties Limited, Shelbourne Development Limited and Shelbourne Properties Limited.

Garrett Kelleher is a former chairman of Legatus in Ireland. Legatus is an international association of Catholic businessmen set up by Irish-American Tom Monaghan, a prominent Opus Dei member and founder of Domino’s Pizza.


Here’s how they describe themselves:

The only organization in the world designed exclusively for top-ranking Catholic business leaders and their spouses. [My emphasis]. In a dynamic way, Legatus brings together the three key areas of a Catholic business leader’s life – Faith, Family and Business – connecting two powerful realities, the challenge of top-tier business leadership and a religious tradition second to none.

Legatus, the Latin word for ambassador, exists to help you become an “ambassador for Christ” (2Cor 5:20) and help you meet the challenges of balancing the responsibilities of faith, family, business and community. Since 1987 Legatus has been bringing together Catholic business leaders and their spouses in a unique format that fosters spiritual growth, formation and commitment.

The organization offers a unique support network of like-minded Catholics who influence the world marketplace and have the ability to practice and infuse their faith in the daily lives and workplaces of their family, friends, colleagues and employees.

The criteria for membership are set out here.

Executive Membership Criteria. Primary membership for the top ranking Catholic in a business

and

Division Head Membership Criteria The top ranking Catholic in a qualifying division or subsidiary.

Requirements:
Manufacturing/Sales/Service
Financial Services
1) Title
Chairman, President, CEO, Owner, Managing Director, Managing Partner, Publisher, Executive Vice President
Same Titles
2) Personnel
30 employees
OR
10 employees and $1M annual payroll
10 employees
3) Volume/Value
$5 Million
OR
$10M Net Value
$100 Million (assets

Garrett Kelleher also sits on the board of regents of Ave Maria University in Florida (“Excellent. Affordable. Catholic”), founded by the ubiquitous pizza man, Tom Monaghan in a new town he called Ave Maria.

Jackie Ascough, wife of Tom, although not officially involved with Iona, is routinely invited to speak on RTÉ programmes about social matters, again for reasons that are not entirely clear. As somebody with a degree in Radio/TV/Film from the University of North Texas, Jackie is uniquely placed to practise as a fertility care practitioner, especially since her degree is augmented by something from the St. Joseph Healthcare Natural Family Planning Teacher Education Centre in St Paul Minnesota.

According to the Human Life International website, Jackie lectures for the Nurture Institute (another institute!) on the topic of psychosexual development of children 0-18. However, the article omits to mention what qualifications she earned that equip her to do this important work. There’s no listing of a company with this name in the Irish database. The Nurture Institute, according to its website, is the “operational arm” of Education Resource Trust. It seems to be in urgent need of new blood, with its youngest director at 66, followed by 68, 72, 73, 80, 81 and 83. You’d have to wonder why people in this age range would be bothering themselves with the psychosexual development of anyone.

Jackie is deeply engaged with Human Life International and other worthy causes such as Pure in Heart, a group of young people answering the call of Our Lady of Medjugorje, with an address at, would you believe it, 23 Merrion Square.

Pure in heart is an International Catholic Movement of young adults who through prayer and friendship, strive together to learn, live and share the truth, beauty and meaning of human sexuality.

The institutes never end. Jackie also works with the Nazareth Family Institute, founded, according to its website, by the Community of Nazareth, describing itself as a lay, charismatic, covenant community in south Co Dublin. Its website suggests a connection with Spirit Radio. One of its directors, Adrian Buckley (45), is also a director of Silverstream Priory, along with Sean Ascough and Patrick Kenny.

Jackie, like her husband Tom, is a director of Spirit Radio, and also writes for Alive! magazine, a right-wing Catholic publication with, among other things, an anti-evolution stance. Poor old Spirit Radio isn’t doing too well, judging by this printout of their financials, and apparently their JNLR listership is even smaller than 4FM, but not to worry. God will provide.

Jackie also wrote for the obscure Voice Today, as did Tom O’Gorman, the researcher for Iona mentioned above.

Incidentally, another Ascough, Deirdre, is married to a descendant of the Bourbon royal house, not that being a member of an ancient European aristocracy from the Holy Roman Empire is necessarily a bad thing. It certainly reflected very well on Declan Ganley’s Libertas party, which was very fond of ancient aristocratic families. Did I mention that Deirdre, Damien and Tom were big fans of Ganley? I’m sure Damien Graf von Schönborn-Buchheim is a perfectly decent fellow, but if I happened to be in his position, I feel certain that I’d yearn for a return to the days when a Catholic aristocracy ruled over Europe, the wonderful days when Charlemagne, my ancestor, was still an all-powerful monarch.

Is that what the members of the Iona lobby group long for too? A time when when powerful Catholic monarchs imposed certainty on the troublesome rabble without the need for messy democracy?

I don’t know, but the question is worth asking as you enjoy your pizza and wonder if you’ve just made a small contribution to the Iona Institute.

On a more whimsical note, those with a smattering of Latin will recognise Domino as the first-person present indicative form of dominare. It means I dominate.

Alternatively, it might also be the ablative form of Dominus, therefore meaning, inter alia, from the Lord.

Just saying …

Anyway, enough levity. The Iona Institute is no laughing matter, so let’s see what we have.

We’re looking at a fundamentalist billionaire; an international cabal of wealthy businessmen; the oldest equestrian Papal order with origins in the Crusades; the secretive Opus Dei; an assortment of priests and minor academics; a highly vocal spin-doctor with almost unlimited access to the national broadcaster.

We’re looking at privileged people seeking to influence Irish law and seeking to impose their own personal religious views on people who do not share their beliefs, but as always in Ireland, the facts are murky. The board of directors of Lolek Limited are a fairly drab bunch, and one would have to wonder whether they are, in fact, not simply sock puppets providing a vanguard for more powerful forces acting internationally.

___________________________________

Annasopra

No

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

We were discussing 80's beatings the other day in regarding to music, 80's dublin was notorious for beatings in the heavy metal/goth/indie scenes...i'm not sure if the gay scene was on a par with that. Roving gangs of pre skanger gangs picking on everyone particularly at or outside gigs.

Declan Flynn?

Ash.J.Williams

No

mango salsa wrote: »

Declan Flynn?

wha?

SpaceTime

To be somewhat fair to RTE and other broadcasters, one of the issues is that you're obliged under BAI rules to balance debates.

It can be quite difficult sometimes to source people on the 'no' side of some of those controversial social issues debates. The Catholic Church often doesn't really want to be seen to be meddling anymore and won't necessarily send priests / nuns to partake and you also need to find someone who is well-spoken and capable of actually going on television or radio.

I would suspect that because the Iona Institute provides a range of very competent speakers, they get on a lot of TV and radio panels.

While I really don't agree with them, you'd have to give them credit for doing pretty top notch PR and being exceptionally competent on television and radio.

The BAI rules can really cause very serious issues with trying to cover something like that though and even more so during a referendum.

If the majority of public opinion is on one side, you'll still be forced by the BAI rules to give equal timing to the other side of the argument. So, it ends up often giving a minority view a huge % of airtime.

It's actually something that puts current affairs producers into a really awkward position to be honest. I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to insist on exact 50:50 coverage, but then how else do you ensure 'balance' if it's what the rules are insisting on ?

I would guess that there probably isn't a vast pool of people you could ring up looking for a catholic / conservative view point. So, the institute has become the 'go to' source of that particular point of view.

The same rules do not apply in the print media or online, only in broadcasting.

diddlybit

No

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

wha?

Google is your friend http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/queer-times-26456751.html

diddlybit

No

SpaceTime wrote: »

While I really don't agree with them, you'd have to give them credit for doing pretty top notch PR and being exceptionally competent on television and radio.

Getting tax-payers money because their feelings were hurt isn'y the most savvy PR stunt though...

Ash.J.Williams

No

diddlybit wrote: »

Google is your friend http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/queer-times-26456751.html

just had a look there. Giving some detail in the reply is your friend..as googling "declan Flynn" does not lead you to the story.

diddlybit

No

But I gave you a link

Zubeneschamali

No

SpaceTime wrote: »

To be somewhat fair to RTE and other broadcasters, one of the issues is that you're obliged under BAI rules to balance debates.

And since John Waters was on the BAI, he should know.

Ash.J.Williams

No

diddlybit wrote: »

But I gave you a link

thanks! another poster simply replied "declan Flynn"

Terrible story, but that could still happen now could it not? As in it's not a fair indication of life in general for gay people at the time??
It would take me a while do dig up articles on fatal beatings in areas i mentioned.

J_E

No

diddlybit wrote: »

Getting tax-payers money because their feelings were hurt isn'y the most savvy PR stunt though...

Iona are fiercely organised though. They have their hand in the two biggest newspapers in the country and the national broadcaster. In a sense they are very much in control of their content.

Ash.J.Williams

No

I think it's unreasonable to suggest that because Rory was put in a situation where he was asked his opinion, he could not do so without a member of Iona there to balance it?

diddlybit

No

Cydoniac wrote: »

Iona are fiercely organised though. They have their hand in the two biggest newspapers in the country and the national broadcaster. In a sense they are very much in control of their content.

Yeah, but despite the media black-out, I'm happy to see that people are outraged on social media. If the rumours are true that RTE have received fistfuls of complaints today, I don't understand how either they or the BAI stay silent for much longer.

SpaceTime

diddlybit wrote: »

Getting tax-payers money because their feelings were hurt isn'y the most savvy PR stunt though...

Quite possibly not.

What's surprising me though is that journalists can be quite poor at seeing through that kind of PR though.

How often do you hear someone who's an industry spokesperson talking about say the property market, and often almost totally unchallenged or possibly not even identified clearly as representing whatever industry or sector they're actually representing?

Given the *VAST* number of people working for RTE, they really need to move more of them into journalism and research roles and trying to get behind stories much more than they do.

I can forgive small organisations on tight budgets. I mean, often a programme on commercial radio might have a production team of 3 people max.

RTE has 1,858 staff, one would think that they could put some of that vast HR resource into research and guest booking.

I would just expect very high standards from an organisation that I pay €160 / year tax to.

Instead, I always get the impression that programme making budgets at RTE are really quite tight and people are working under a lot of pressure. I don't understand why that would be the case.

Daith

No

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I think it's unreasonable to suggest that because Rory was put in a situation where he was asked his opinion, he could not do so without a member of Iona there to balance it?

As it was an interview and not a debate I don't think a counter balance was needed.

There was and is nothing stopping a member of Iona doing the same and giving their opinion.

Annasopra

No

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

thanks! another poster simply replied "declan Flynn"

Terrible story, but that could still happen now could it not? As in it's not a fair indication of life in general for gay people at the time??
It would take me a while do dig up articles on fatal beatings in areas i mentioned.

Did you not read the article?

david75

No

Brendan o Connor did actually prompt Rory to name who was referring to.
It's a bit bizarre that he hasn't had any light fall on him for doing so.

Ash.J.Williams

No

david75 wrote: »

Brendan o Connor did actually prompt Rory to name who was referring to.
It's a bit bizarre that he hasn't had any light fall on him for doing so.

that is a fact

Annasopra

No

david75 wrote: »

Brendan o Connor did actually prompt Rory to name who was referring to.
It's a bit bizarre that he hasn't had any light fall on him for doing so.

How do you know he hasn't?

Ash.J.Williams

No

mango salsa wrote: »

Did you not read the article?

i did and it painted a picture of ignorance. As a kid i recall a chap applying for a GAA club transfer in the 80's to live with his girlfriend in another parish, his club objected as he wasn't married and it was said "he's not playing football up there he's "hooring" " which i think relevant. There was a lot of backwardness going on.

diddlybit

No

SpaceTime wrote: »

I would just expect very high standards from an organisation that I pay €160 / year tax to.

Which made RTE €215,000,000 in 2012. :eek: