Giving some of N.I. back to the Republic

ancapailldorcha

timthumbni wrote: »

In the census there was always a number of people of when asked identity (or maybe it was religion) who would put down Jedi. (As in Star Wars Jedi knight)
:-)

I think it was quite a big number in the general uk census. And why not I suppose. I would have as much belief in a religion from a movie as I would in the recognised world religions.

I don't see what that has to do with the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a nation. Anyone who lists Jedi as a religion on the census is a moron, end of.

timthumbni

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't see what that has to do with the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a nation. Anyone who lists Jedi as a religion on the census is a moron, end of.

I wasn't being at all serious. :-) Though it could be argued that anyone who lists any religion on their census is a moron. But that would be for another thread.

ancapailldorcha

timthumbni wrote: »

I wasn't being at all serious. :-) Though it could be argued that anyone who lists any religion on their census is a moron. But that would be for another thread.

Wouldn't quite go that far. Anyone who is Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, etc genuinely believes in their faith. People who list Jedi are just morons in my experience who think that they are being original. I'm willing to alter that opinion should I ever meet a "genuine" Jedi.

The Corinthian

on the river wrote: »

i am talking about how each county should be allowed to vote and voice their opinion.

I asked timthumbni with reference to what he posted. You I asked to respond to some points made on your opinions that you then chose to run away and not do.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't see what that has to do with the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a nation. Anyone who lists Jedi as a religion on the census is a moron, end of.

Or stating 'none of the above' in protest. This has long been the purpose of spoilt votes and has in the past caused effective political embarrassment, especially for those candidates who ended up polling less than turkey hand-puppets.

So while it's not something I'd do myself, I can understand it.

on the river

[QUOTE= You I asked to respond to some points made on your opinions that you then chose to run away and not do.

on the river never runs a way from a challenge. you have insulted me and dispected me once more.
I already outlined my arguement to you twice and yet you continue to question me and not make any of your own points .

Boards is a website to discuss topics not the members . so please engage with debate.

The Corinthian

on the river wrote: »

on the river never runs a way from a challenge. you have insulted me and dispected me once more.

Good grief :rolleyes:

I already outlined my arguement to you twice and yet you continue to question me and not make any of your own points .

Boards is a website to discuss topics not the members . so please engage with debate.

I questioned your argument, it's you who seems to treat the questioning your argument as some sort of personal affront, and you have repeatedly refused to defend your argument when it is questioned. As you have correctly pointed out, Boards is a place where one discusses the topics at hand, except you're not - all you're doing is delivering your argument and then refusing to discuss your argument when it is questioned - in fact, you seem offended that one would dare question it.

on the river

The Corinthian wrote: »

Good grief :rolleyes:

I questioned your argument, it's you who seems to treat the questioning your argument as some sort of personal affront, and you have repeatedly refused to defend your argument when it is questioned. As you have correctly pointed out, Boards is a place where one discusses the topics at hand, except you're not - all you're doing is delivering your argument and then refusing to discuss your argument when it is questioned - in fact, you seem offended that one would dare question it.

I have no objectios to asking questions and answering them so ask away.

The Corinthian

on the river wrote: »

I have no objectios to asking questions and answering them so ask away.

Already did - more correctly, already made my rebuttal to your argument earlier. Feel free to respond to that rebuttal.

Karl Stein

The Corinthian wrote: »

I would think it perfectly clear;

It's quite obviously not except in your own mind.

Whether that NI population is composed of one or multiple heterogeneous groups is another matter, although I would contend that if the latter they have more in common with each other than any of them have with the population south of the border

You would indeed and you'd be talking utter nonsense. The idea that some discernible change in the ethno-cultural character of the people takes place exactly at the border is nothing other than evidence of your own ridiculous prejudices.

Let me help you realise how utterly ridiculous your 'psycho-border' is. Here is a satellite image of the island - now think about how patently ridiculous it is that you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary line.

- the main point is that the two populations are not homogeneous

Your point is nonsense and evidence only of your own prejudices and simplistic views.

on the river

The Corinthian wrote: »

Already did - more correctly, already made my rebuttal to your argument earlier. Feel free to respond to that rebuttal.

:rolleyes:

Wofle Tone is a patriotc AND should not be insulted:mad: . That is bang out of order .

Tone laid the foundation for future rebellions and remembered annually.

as regards to europe Ireland is already a member currency bailout etc,

Your srutiny of my argument is heavily flawed jumping at any refernce i make .

You act on impulsive. so really lets discuss "N.I GIVING SOME BACK TO REPUBLIC"

marienbad

I have lost the thread of any discussion on this thread at this stage .Am I alone ?

Dr.Tank Adams

The Corinthian wrote: »

So how have "people of Gaelic Irish descent that consider themselves Irish" managed not to be culturally distinct? So far, you are effectively relying upon racialist arguments alone to claim commonality between north and south of the border (which doesn't solve the problem of those who are not genetically 'Gaelic Irish people' in NI) and last time I checked people's cultures are not passed on in genetic memory.

Maybe you should be posting on Stormfront rather than here? You don't really have much more than a racial argument going on from what I can see.

Another ad hominem. Until you can grow up a little, this is where I stop reading your nonsense.

Holy sh*t, now you're accusing me of being a racist?? I'll give you one thing, you're superb at deflecting from the fact that you have no evidence to back up your arguments. Ever think of getting involved in American politics? You could tell them about how similar they are to the "Northern Irish" while you're at it...:rolleyes:

And you are the one who is obsessing over genetics, the only reason I'm having to bring descriptions like "Gaelic Irish" into it is because I'm trying to get my point across to you which you clearly weren't understanding. Apparently you still don't understand because you are telling me that "Gaelic Irish" ARE distinct from Ulster-Scots, something which I HAVE CLEARLY ACCEPTED IN NUMEROUS POSTS. Are you even reading what I'm saying?? I accept that the British minority on this island is distinct from the Irish majority, what I do not accept is that the Irish minority in the north is distinct from the Irish majority in the south. WE ARE THE EXACT SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE. To deny that is pure lunacy.

All of the above is completely irrelevant to the crux of this argument though (I wonder do you even remember what the argument is?). The fact that there is a British minority in Ireland does NOT JUSTIFY THE EXISTENCE OF A "NORTHERN IRISH" NATIONAL IDENTITY, BECAUSE "NORTHERN IRISHNESS" AND "BRITISHNESS" ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Please make a decent attempt at actually reading and comprehending what I have written this time, and I would advise you to refrain from calling people racists just to try and devalue their argument, makes you look like a shock-jock.

The Corinthian

Charles Rocher wrote: »

You would indeed and you'd be talking utter nonsense. The idea that some discernible change in the ethno-cultural character of the people takes place exactly at the border is nothing other than evidence of your own ridiculous prejudices.

With respects, I think you've invested so heavily in the notion that there is no difference that you're now at the point that you're ignoring a number of the points I made, but more importantly just turning to dismiss them.

Let me help you realise how utterly ridiculous your 'psycho-border' is. Here is a satellite image of the island - now think about how patently ridiculous it is that you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary line.

OK, that has to be one of the most moronic arguments I've ever read here. Look, here's a satellite picture of Europe, why don't you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary lines there too? Clearly then, by your reasoning they're all one big happy nation; Germans, Italians, French, Spanish, Polish and so on.

Why don't you try explaining that teeny-weeny inconsistency in your logic?

Your point is nonsense and evidence only of your own prejudices and simplistic views.

And when all else fails go for a personal attack. Grand so; might your own adherence to a romantic fantasy of 'one people' not simply be the delusion of a nationalist fanatic? Especially as you don't seem to be able to come up with any argument in favour that cannot be shot down with ease?

Satellite images :rolleyes:

on the river wrote: »

Wofle Tone is a patriotc AND should not be insulted:mad: . That is bang out of order .

Tone laid the foundation for future rebellions and remembered annually.

I did not direct my comment about Wolfe Tone to you, so why you feel the need to address that, is beyond me.

as regards to europe Ireland is already a member currency bailout etc,

Your srutiny of my argument is heavily flawed jumping at any refernce i make .

You act on impulsive. so really lets discuss "N.I GIVING SOME BACK TO REPUBLIC"

You've not responded to my point. Please do so. About the only thing that your response has in connection to my point is the word 'Europe', beyond that it's as random as you can get. If you are having difficulty understanding it, feel free to ask.

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

Holy sh*t, now you're accusing me of being a racist??

Well the only argument you've managed to supply so far linking north and south has been a genetic one. So yes, basically if you're arguing solely on the basis of race, what does that the argument?

WE ARE THE EXACT SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE. To deny that is pure lunacy.

You can put it all in caps if you want, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that the only argument you've presented so far for why we are the exact same group of people is genetic. Basically racial.

Otherwise, tell me, other than genetics, what other argument have you proffered?

Dr.Tank Adams

The Corinthian wrote: »

With respects, I think you've invested so heavily in the notion that there is no difference that you're now at the point that you're ignoring a number of the points I made, but more importantly just turning to dismiss them.

OK, that has to be one of the most moronic arguments I've ever read here. Look, here's a satellite picture of Europe, why don't you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary lines there too? Clearly then, by your reasoning they're all one big happy nation; Germans, Italians, French, Spanish, Polish and so on.

Why don't you try explaining that teeny-weeny inconsistency in your logic?

And when all else fails go for a personal attack. Grand so; might your own adherence to a romantic fantasy of 'one people' not simply be the delusion of a nationalist fanatic? Especially as you don't seem to be able to come up with any argument in favour that cannot be shot down with ease?

Satellite images :rolleyes:

I did not direct my comment about Wolfe Tone to you, so why you feel the need to address that, is beyond me.

You've not responded to my point. Please do so. About the only thing that your response has in connection to my point is the word 'Europe', beyond that it's as random as you can get. If you are having difficulty understanding it, feel free to ask.

Well the only argument you've managed to supply so far linking north and south has been a genetic one. So yes, basically if you're arguing solely on the basis of race, what does that the argument?

You can put it all in caps if you want, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that the only argument you've presented so far for why we are the exact same group of people is genetic. Basically racial.

Otherwise, tell me, other than genetics, what other argument have you proffered?

Sweet Jesus man, read back over the thread, nearly all of the arguments I have presented are to do with culture and history, genetics are only another aspect of it that we began discussing later. And you really do seem to have forgotten what this argument is about, are you engaged in so many arguments you forget which is which? THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT THE "NORTHERN IRISH" IDENTITY, NOT ABOUT LINKING IRISH PEOPLE NORTH AND SOUTH AS YOU SEEM TO THINK.

The only reason I even had to mention the link is because you sensationally claimed that the Irish in the north and south were not the same group of people????? Which is almost too stupid to be true. Once again though, congratulations on swerving the argument, from an argument on the "Northern Irish" identity, to accusing me of pushing "the nefarious Nationalist agenda" and now calling me a racist, you really do know how to use hysteria to mask the fact you have no salient points to make. I really do believe you'd perform excellently in U.S politics :L

The Corinthian

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

Sweet Jesus man, read back over the thread, nearly all of the arguments I have presented are to do with culture and history, genetics are only another aspect of it that we began discussing later.

Which one by one ended up being debunked, to the point that all you've been left with for the last few posts has been the racial card to play.

The only reason I even had to mention the link is because you sensationally claimed that the Irish in the north and south were not the same group of people?????

Once upon a time that may have been true, but we've diverged in the last century, to the point that we're probably as close to each other as we would be to the English or Welsh - indeed, even genetically we probably have more relatives in England, on average, than up north. Seriously, most southerners have common cultural points of reference with each other when we mix - politics, education, economics, and so on - we've very few to none with nordies.

Which is almost too stupid to be true.

And when you get to this level of childishness all you do is look as if you're in some sort of denial. You mightn't like to admit that, but maybe it's time you wake up and smell the coffee.

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

Seriously, most southerners have common cultural points of reference with each other when we mix - politics, education, economics, and so on - we've very few to none with nordies

Aren't you forgetting about the GAA?

Karl Stein

The Corinthian wrote: »

With respects, I think you've invested so heavily in the notion that there is no difference

Lol, honestly? This is the exact reverse of your non-point. It is you who is heavily invested in your ridiculous notion that the imaginary line is some sort of chasm that delineates two 'species'.

Here's is what I said.

Generally there'd be nothing in the way of ethno-cultural difference between people who consider themselves Irish in the counties on both sides of the border, certainly, no more than people on the border of Kerry/Cork would.

OK, that has to be one of the most moronic arguments I've ever read here. Look, here's a satellite picture of Europe, why don't you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary lines there too?

Have you lost all reason? You're the one trying to turn political boundaries into imagined ethno-cultural chasms not I.

Why don't you try explaining that teeny-weeny inconsistency in your logic?

It's not my logic that is in question here.

Grand so; might your own adherence to a romantic fantasy of 'one people' not simply be the delusion of a nationalist fanatic?

Again you've tried to attribute the reverse of your non-argument to me. Would you stop doing that please? I've not made any claim of an all island hive-mind like you have for those on either side of the border - I have a more sophisticated view of the people who inhabit this island.

Satellite images :rolleyes:

Oh dear, Mr rolleyes.

Karl Stein

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Aren't you forgetting about the GAA?

And the Rugby, RTE (broadcast in the north now), music, dance, language (both English and Irish), literature, film/TV, etc etc.

R P McMurphy

The Corinthian wrote: »

Which one by one ended up being debunked, to the point that all you've been left with for the last few posts has been the racial card to play.

Once upon a time that may have been true, but we've diverged in the last century, to the point that we're probably as close to each other as we would be to the English or Welsh - indeed, even genetically we probably have more relatives in England, on average, than up north. Seriously, most southerners have common cultural points of reference with each other when we mix - politics, education, economics, and so on - we've very few to none with nordies.

And when you get to this level of childishness all you do is look as if you're in some sort of denial. You mightn't like to admit that, but maybe it's time you wake up and smell the coffee.

I can only assume that your experiences with people fron the north are very limited. I doubt you have any basis for those assertions

junder

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I can only assume that your experiences with people fron the north are very limited. I doubt you have any basis for those assertions

I think that applies more to those denying the existence of a northern irish identity

Karl Stein

junder wrote: »

I think that applies more to those denying the existence of a northern irish identity

But how do you separate those who consider themselves 'Northern Irish' because of geography (the northern part of Ireland), politics (I'm Irish/Britsh/Ulster Scots but I'm from Northern Ireland) or some other motivation and is that an identity?

K-9

Mod:

We've had 3 Mod warnings on this thread and numerous cards handed out but it doesn't seem to have any effect. Posts are still petty and dismissive.

We also seem to have reached an impasse with little sign of some people giving an inch or even considering the other point of view, so at this stage, I don't think there's much of a shelf life left on this thread.

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Aren't you forgetting about the GAA?

No, but then does southern support of the Premier league make us all English?

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Have you lost all reason? You're the one trying to turn political boundaries into imagined ethno-cultural chasms not I.

Maybe you could explain how this makes your satellite photo rebuttal less ridiculous. I mean seriously, you tried to claim that you can't have to countries in a geographical region because you can't see a physical border from space!

It's not my logic that is in question here.

It is, I questioned it. Pretending I didn't doesn't really get us very far.

Again you've tried to attribute the reverse of your non-argument to me. Would you stop doing that please? I've not made any claim of an all island hive-mind like you have for those on either side of the border - I have a more sophisticated view of the people who inhabit this island.

I don't belive you do because, for a start, I never argued there was a hive mind anywhere and even said so in my last post.

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I can only assume that your experiences with people fron the north are very limited. I doubt you have any basis for those assertions

Very grown up personal attack. Do you have something useful to say?

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

No

Well then seeing that sport can be considered part of one's culture, and that as well the GAA, we have the IRFU, GUI etc as all-Ireland bodies looking after their respective sports that have a large following throughout this island, then how are there very few or no common cultural points of reference between north & south?

but then does southern support of the Premier league make us all English?

If a PL supporter was born, raised and lives here, how does it make he/she English?

junder

Charles Rocher wrote: »

But how do you separate those who consider themselves 'Northern Irish' because of geography (the northern part of Ireland), politics (I'm Irish/Britsh/Ulster Scots but I'm from Northern Ireland) or some other motivation and is that an identity?

Considering the term northern irish was until recently ( when republicans realised how many catholics where now identifying themselves as northern irish) complete anathema to those from the nationalist community. Whether it was for geographical or political reasons the closest you ever got to the term northern Ireland was the ' north of Ireland' or simply 'the north' but never ever northern Ireland and woe be tied anybody from the nationalist community who referred to themselves as northern irish, but in reality that's neither here nor there. Ultimately it's up to the individual to define who other what they are. For me, Yes I am British but that's not my national identity in the same way being British is not the national identity of an English, Scottish or Welsh person. If somebody what's to identify themselves as northern irish merely for geographical reasons, that's thier business, my national identity is northern irish, I feel no affinity to the irish identity and while I share some traits wirh those from the Republic of Ireland, ( in much the same way as I share traits with Scottish, English and Welsh people) I am different.

Karl Stein

The Corinthian wrote: »

Maybe you could explain how this makes your satellite photo rebuttal less ridiculous.

Because a satellite view of the island underscores the absurdity of your views.

The Corinthian: And if there's one thing I doubt even you can argue with a straight face is that the two populations are homogeneous.

Ergo they are heterogeneous and this heterogeneity is suddenly observable at an imaginary line. What a truly bizarre view to hold.

I mean seriously, you tried to claim that you can't have to countries in a geographical region because you can't see a physical border from space!

Yet again you present the opposite of your daft views and attribute them to me. This is the third time you've done it and the second time I've called you out on it and second time I'm asking you to stop doing it.

I don't belive you do because, for a start, I never argued there was a hive mind anywhere and even said so in my last post.

You've created an absurd psycho-border where 'two populations' suddenly change in character depending on what side of it they inhabit. It's difficult to take such a bizarre view seriously.

Would you hold the same bizarre views about people on either side of the border between Scotland and England, England and Wales, Austria and Germany?

Karl Stein

Considering the term northern irish was until recently ( when republicans realised how many catholics where now identifying themselves as northern irish) complete anathema to those from the nationalist community.

You're making the mistake of presuming that people who are Catholic and who identify as Northern Irish, for whatever reasons, are automatically somehow not Nationalist or Republican (at least aspirationally).

Whether it was for geographical or political reasons the closest you ever got to the term northern Ireland was the ' north of Ireland' or simply 'the north' but never ever northern Ireland

The SDLP and its supporters never shied away from the term Northern Ireland iirc.

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Well then seeing that sport can be considered part of one's culture, and that as well the GAA, we have the IRFU, GUI etc as all-Ireland bodies looking after their respective sports that have a large following throughout this island, then how are there very few or no common cultural points of reference between north & south?

You do understand what you've described hardly constitutes many common cultural points of reference between north & south?

If a PL supporter was born, raised and lives here, how does it make he/she English?

Well according to you, if a GAA supporter was born, raised and lives in Britain, apparently that makes them Irish, so I'm just applying the same logic.

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Because a satellite view of the island underscores the absurdity of your views.

Did the satellite view of Europe I rebutted with not register with you? How by the same logic, Europe should not have any 'imaginary' borders either?

Ergo they are heterogeneous and this heterogeneity is suddenly observable at an imaginary line. What a truly bizarre view to hold.

No one has every suggested that heterogeneity is observable at an imaginary line, and already I pointed out that simelar 'blurring' occurs at national borders elsewhere; that's how national boundaries work.

Yet you're now constructing a straw man, attempting to use the example of the natural blurring of nations at the boarders between them to implying that this blurring is nationwide, which is nonsense. Some guy may have some commonality in his village in Monaghan with another just over the border, but that does not then imply that another guy in Cork shares the same traits.

Yet again you present the opposite of your daft views and attribute them to me. This is the third time you've done it and the second time I've called you out on it and second time I'm asking you to stop doing it.

You've created an absurd psycho-border where 'two populations' suddenly change in character depending on what side of it they inhabit. It's difficult to take such a bizarre view seriously.

But that's just an extension of your staw man; you can argue the same thing, suggesting that someone living just over the border from Germany in the Netherlands cannot be suddenly different from their German counterpart just over that border, and then imply, as you are, that the same applies for a Bavarian, or for that matter a Greek.

Would you hold the same bizarre views about people on either side of the border between Scotland and England, England and Wales, Austria and Germany?

What I find bizarre is that you don't appear to understand what a country is. You're always going to get blurring at the borders and always shall; there's been many wars fought over bordering regions that should belong on one side of the other.

Even if you visit them it's often difficult to tell what country you're in; if you're ever in Constance, Germany, they basically speak the same dialect as they do over the border in Kreuzlingen, Switzerland; you'll be hard pushed to tell someone from the former apart from the latter.

So should all of Switzerland, or the German speaking part, be unified with Germany? This is the argument you're coming out with after all; because the border areas are simelar, ergo the whole of the two countries must be. And that's clearly nonsense.

Or where do you want to draw the border otherwise? After all, there's not that much difference between many Scots and Northern Irish - only that wee stretch of water between them. Or perhaps the English and Scots should forget about the border between them seeing as towns on both sides of their border share many similarities too.

Shall we just stretch the borders in every direction until there are no borders left, or did you have a convenient solution that for some reason marked water as the only true border? I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the position you'd like to cherry pick.

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

You do understand what you've described hardly constitutes many common cultural points of reference between north & south?

It renders inaccurate your use of the word 'none'. Plus it's a pretty noticeable example of evidence to the contrary of your original statement.

Well according to you, if a GAA supporter was born, raised and lives in Britain, apparently that makes them Irish, so I'm just applying the same logic.

Never said that. My GAA reference was related to the supposed very few or absence of north south cultural commonalities brought up by you.

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

It renders inaccurate your use of the word 'none'.

I never said none; in fact my argument has always been that there is as simelar a commonality between a citizen of the RoI and a Scot or Englishman, as there is with a NI citizen. I note there's a lot of desperate straw men being thrown about in this discussion.

Plus it's a pretty noticeable example of evidence to the contrary of your original statement.

And an easily rebutted noticeable example of evidence, as I pointed out.

Never said that. My GAA reference was related to the supposed very few or absence of north south cultural commonalities brought up by you.

Oh, it's 'few' now, not 'none'...

So how does it debunk a claim that there are "very few" commonalities? You do understand, pointing out one or two sports doesn't actually manage to prove anything more than greater than zero, which I never claimed?