Giving some of N.I. back to the Republic

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

I never said none;

Post #256:

very few to none with nordies

Why say 'none' then if you don't actually mean it?

in fact my argument has always been that there is as simelar a commonality between a citizen of the RoI and a Scot or Englishman, as there is with a NI citizen.

So are there very few to no commonalities with the English & Scots too?

And an easily rebutted noticeable example of evidence, as I pointed out.

England v Ireland in the rugby this Saturday? Not noticeable? Quite......

Oh, it's 'few' now, not 'none'...

? Your words again. You used both.

So how does it debunk a claim that there are "very few" commonalities? You do understand, pointing out one or two sports doesn't actually manage to prove anything more than greater than zero, which I never claimed?

Most people north & south speak English as their first language. It's only one example of a commonality. But because it's only one, is it also insignificant?

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Post #256:

You do understand that the expression "very few to none" does not actually mean 'none' - unless you choose to ignore the other three words.

So are there very few to no commonalities with the English & Scots too?

There's probably more between the Scots and English, than southern and northern Irish, as they have significantly more points of reference, but yes - ultimately the cultural relationship between them, would not be dissimilar as ours would be to them.

England v Ireland in the rugby this Saturday? Not noticeable? Quite......

I think you'll find that there's lots of people who don't notice rugby. Same with GAA. Or cricket (one which I note you omitted). If you're relying on sport as your sole binding force in a nation, you're going to have a bit of a problem there.

Most people north & south speak English as their first language. It's only one example of a commonality. But because it's only one, is it also insignificant?

And English is also the language of... England. And we both watch both the Premier league. Should we rejoin the union? By your logic there's certainly a rational for doing so.

Please read what I've actually, repeatedly written on this. Your average Joe in NI has grown up with a different educational system, currency, economy, politics and political parties, social welfare system and even traditions than a southerner. They had World War II - we had 'the Emergency'. They had 'the Troubles' we, basically didn't. They have a different demographic mix; they even have protestants; we got rid of most of ours in the 1930's.

Many of the things they've grown up with bare closer similarity to other UK citizens than to us. There's a few nationalistic aspirations based upon stuff that happened a long time ago all right, but that's an aspiration, not something in common. There's a few north-south initiatives, such as the GAA too. Indeed another thing that we had in common was UTV and BBC Northern Ireland (unless you were unlucky to grow up in the south east, in which case you got the Welsh channels).

But I use the Euro and before that the Punt. I have to pay for my medical care and dentists through the nose. I did the Leaving Cert and had to learn Irish, because without it I couldn't get into most universities here. Since the nineties at least, I've been able to drink in a pub after 11pm and shops have always been able to open on Sundays. We had Quinnsworth and Superquinn growing up (although, now we all must bow to the almighty Tesco) For me a parade is something they have on Paddy's day. I've never seen a machine gun wielded on the streets in my home town.

And that's the thing; it would be nice if we were the same, but we're not. Certainly while neither is a Kerryman to a Dub, the difference it tiny when compared to either that Kerryman or Dub to some bloke in Belfast, or Ballymena or Coleraine.

Whether this is because of nearly a century of partition or because we were always different (even prior to partition 'ulster' was a bit of a special case), doesn't really matter any more, it just is, and grasping at straws and pretending we're all one happy nation because the have a few things in common, and frankly not many more than we have with the other British nations, is pretty delusional.

R P McMurphy

The Corinthian wrote: »

Very grown up personal attack. Do you have something useful to say?

How is that a personal attack?

I have lived in both the North and the Republic and I can't see any basis for what you are asserting, none at all. I think it is fair to question your level of direct experience in how you arrived at your thesis as to the lack of commonality between people from two parts of the island.

Surely to have arrived at such a conclusion you must have a wealth of experience to draw upon

ancapailldorcha

R P McMurphy wrote: »

How is that a personal attack?

I have lived in both the North and the Republic and I can't see any basis for what you are asserting, none at all. I think it is fair to question your level of direct experience in how you arrived at your thesis as to the lack of commonality between people from two parts of the island.

Surely to have arrived at such a conclusion you must have a wealth of experience to draw upon

I've lived in both and I certainly see some basis for The Corinthian's posts. I've not been reading the last few pages of this thread too thoroughly as it meandered a bit off topic but IMO, there are definitely cultural differences, as The Corinthian has mentioned and listed in his latest post.

The Corinthian

R P McMurphy wrote: »

How is that a personal attack?

You failed to cite, rebut or even mention anything I said in my post. Instead you attacked me directly, claiming that anything I said was clearly because my "experiences with people from the north are very limited". And that was the height of your arguments, not that you wrote much, against anything I wrote.

Attack the post, not the poster - as the expression goes - and you only did the latter.

R P McMurphy

The Corinthian wrote: »

You failed to cite, rebut or even mention anything I said in my post. Instead you attacked me directly, claiming that anything I said was clearly because my "experiences with people from the north are very limited". And that was the height of your arguments, not that you wrote much, against anything I wrote.

Attack the post, not the poster - as the expression goes - and you only did the latter.

Well I thought it would clearly relate to the point in this quoted text "almost southerners have common cultural points of reference with each other when we mix - politics, education, economics, and so on - we've very few to none with nordies". If you believe this then I would assume you know relatively few people from the North

The Corinthian

What you "thought it would clearly relate to" ultimately didn't. You made a personal attack on me and did not even mention a single point I made in passing. Please stop trying to spin a personal attack as something more noble.

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

You do understand that the expression "very few to none" does not actually mean 'none' - unless you choose to ignore the other three words.

I genuinely don't want to turn this into a discussion on it's own. I just think you shouldn't have used the term 'none' tbh.

There's probably more between the Scots and English, than southern and northern Irish, as they have significantly more points of reference, but yes - ultimately the cultural relationship between them, would not be dissimilar as ours would be to them.

What areas are covered by the term 'cultural relationship' by your understanding of it?

I think you'll find that there's lots of people who don't notice rugby. Same with GAA.

But many do notice or follow them all the same.

Or cricket (one which I note you omitted).

Not intentionally I assure you. An all-Ireland body administers it too, with players from both north & south (Kevin & Niall O'Brien from Dublin) on the team. I watch it now and again, plus a great win over the Windies last night too.

If you're relying on sport as your sole binding force in a nation, you're going to have a bit of a problem there.

I'm not simultaneously denying that there are divergent forces too.

And English is also the language of... England. And we both watch both the Premier league. Should we rejoin the union? By your logic there's certainly a rational for doing so.

I personally have no urge to do the bit in bold, despite speaking English and watching the PL. As a rationale I think thats a very weak argument.

There's a few north-south initiatives, such as the GAA too. Indeed another thing that we had in common was UTV and BBC Northern Ireland (unless you were unlucky to grow up in the south east, in which case you got the Welsh channels).

Charles Rocher listed the following in addition to sport:

'RTE (broadcast in the north now), music, dance, language (both English and Irish), literature, film/TV, etc etc.'

Since leisure time, as well as work, is important to people north and south, we have alot of commonality in this area don't you think?

And that's the thing; it would be nice if we were the same, but we're not. Certainly while neither is a Kerryman to a Dub, the difference it tiny when compared to either that Kerryman or Dub to some bloke in Belfast, or Ballymena or Coleraine.

As opposed to people in Lifford and Strabane, Blacklion and Belcoo, Crossmaglen and Dundalk, Derry and Donegal?

pretending we're all one happy nation because the have a few things in common, and frankly not many more than we have with the other British nations

Not pretending at all, and definitely not as regards to 'one happy nation'.

R P McMurphy

The Corinthian wrote: »

What you "thought it would clearly relate to" ultimately didn't. You made a personal attack on me and did not even mention a single point I made in passing. Please stop trying to spin a personal attack as something more noble.

Of course it relates to it

Karl Stein

The Corinthian wrote: »

Did the satellite view of Europe I rebutted with not register with you? How by the same logic, Europe should not have any 'imaginary' borders either?

Who said there shouldn't be borders? Again you attribute an argument to me I have not made - I'm losing count as to how many times you've done this and how often I've asked you to stop and, frankly, it's boring having to wade through.

No one has every suggested that heterogeneity is observable at an imaginary line, and already I pointed out that simelar 'blurring' occurs at national borders elsewhere; that's how national boundaries work.

You specifically said the two populations and used the imaginary line as a delineator - I've shown this idea that there are two species on either side of the border to absolute rubbish.

I'm done here except to say your two piece, two colour jigsaw concept of the people of Ireland is evidence only of your poor understanding and prejudices.

on the river

The Corinthian wrote: »

What you "thought it would clearly relate to" ultimately didn't. You made a personal attack on me and did not even mention a single point I made in passing. Please stop trying to spin a personal attack as something more noble.

:eek:

You made personal attacks on me countless times without any apology.:( Then you say your the victim. Please engage with debate.

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

I genuinely don't want to turn this into a discussion on it's own. I just think you shouldn't have used the term 'none' tbh.

Fair enough.

What areas are covered by the term 'cultural relationship' by your understanding of it?

I listed out a whole ream of examples. ancapailldorcha even cited them.

But many do notice or follow them all the same.

Yes, I understand that; I was pointing out that it is a weak example. Other than being one of the few, and simelar examples existing that could apply to our cultural affinity with the English, for example, it also is nowhere near universal. A weak example.

I'm not simultaneously denying that there are divergent forces too.

A lie of omission is still a lie; you're avoiding any mention of such forces and have been going to pains to only cite the similarities. That's a bias meant to mislead through omission, I'm afraid. At least I admit there are similarities; my argument is that they're too few or frankly not significantly much more than for any other nation in the UK.

I personally have no urge to do the bit in bold, despite speaking English and watching the PL. As a rationale I think thats a very weak argument.

But the problem is that the arguments you've used, showing how the populations north and south are simelar, can also be applied to England. You may not have any urge, but look at all we have in common with the English using the same logic as you've used for the nordies. Not a Hell of a difference, TBH.

Charles Rocher listed the following in addition to sport:

Sure; music, dance, language (both English and Irish), literature, film/TV, etc etc... and stuff... Actually, when they make Irish obligatory in school then I might take his point a little more seriously.

As opposed to people in Lifford and Strabane, Blacklion and Belcoo, Crossmaglen and Dundalk, Derry and Donegal?

So, the whole of Ireland has to unite with them, because the border areas are not unalike them? Bit daft.

Not pretending at all, and definitely not as regards to 'one happy nation'.

I think you are pretending, or in denial. We realistically stopped being one nation a good few years ago. You might disagree, but in my experience, this would be for ideological rather than practical reasons.

Charles Rocher wrote: »

You specifically said the two populations and used the imaginary line as a delineator - I've shown this idea that there are two species on either side of the border to absolute rubbish.

Then the Germans and French are not different peoples? After all, you've never claimed there shouldn't be borders and seeing as you never commented on my European satellite photo (avoided doing so), you must concur there too.

That's why your satellite photo was so laughable.

I'm done here except to say your two piece, two colour jigsaw concept of the people of Ireland is evidence only of your poor understanding and prejudices.

Or your blinkered 'nation once again' concept is little more than a romantic aspiration that is at best woefully out of date and at worst the dangerous delusion of a fanatic.

valor rorghulis

Having lived in both jurisdictions there certainly is a very different feel to Northern Ireland. After a hundred years of different economies, school systems, voting and communities that was always going to happen.

Whilst I wouldn't feel like a foreigner up there, I can see the unionist argument too because I've never felt like a foreigner in Cardiff, Bristol or Edinburgh either.

I think a lot of southerners get the wrong impression about the way unionists describe themselves as British. Its perceived as "I am a British person in the part of Ireland we own" whereas the reality is they just see Northern Ireland and Great Britain as being one nation (the UK) and British is the description of that nationality.

I used to be quite nationalist minded but I think recent history has really distorted our view of ourselves and the British. I think we have completely blown out of proportion any cultural differences between us. Having also lived in Europe it has showed me how similar the Irish and British really are.

More and more I just see Britain, Ireland and IoM as one cultural nation. Its a farce we have a different currency to them yet we have the same one as Greece, Germany & Latvia

K-9

The Corinthian wrote: »

You failed to cite, rebut or even mention anything I said in my post. Instead you attacked me directly, claiming that anything I said was clearly because my "experiences with people from the north are very limited". And that was the height of your arguments, not that you wrote much, against anything I wrote.

Attack the post, not the poster - as the expression goes - and you only did the latter.

While generally I wouldn't be a fan of the "you don't live here/there" point, I do think given the context of the way the thread has drifted (which you have driven to a large extent), wondering about how much experience somebody actually has of N.I. life/culture is a valid question to pose. You are claiming there are few to no cultural similarities, the poster is wondering why you have come to that belief and if you have any/how much experience you have of N.I. day to day life.

I do not view that question as a personal attack, it seems a perfectly reasonable question.

on the river wrote:

You made personal attacks on me countless times without any apology. Then you say your the victim. Please engage with debate.

There is way too much back seat modding going on in this thread. Whether somebody is or is not engaging with debate is up to the mods to decide.

General Note:

Report posts to the mods if you feel somebody is personally attacking you, or not engaging in debate/discussion. Plenty of on thread warnings and cards have been handed out at this stage, bans from the forum will be handed out next for flagrant flouting of moderator instructions.

ancapailldorcha

The Isle of Man is a weird one. Parts of it feel very British (Douglas and Onchan) but other areas (Peel and Ramsey) definitely have their own feel and culture to them. The accent is very similar with parts of England but they're quite militant that they're a separate nation and the only Manx I've dealt with will react with hostility to the suggestion that the IoM is part of the UK.

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

I listed out a whole ream of examples. ancapailldorcha even cited them.

So what examples are you using to support the following statement:

There's probably more between the Scots and English, than southern and northern Irish, as they have significantly more points of reference, but yes - ultimately the cultural relationship between them, would not be dissimilar as ours would be to them.

A weak example.

It's not weak when thousands throughout this island follow these sports.

A lie of omission is still a lie; you're avoiding any mention of such forces and have been going to pains to only cite the similarities. That's a bias meant to mislead through omission

You do remember what it was I originally disagreed with you about, don't you?

But the problem is that the arguments you've used, showing how the populations north and south are simelar, can also be applied to England. You may not have any urge, but look at all we have in common with the English using the same logic as you've used for the nordies. Not a Hell of a difference, TBH.

I've never used my argument in this thread as a basis for any sort of political launching pad, plus neither have I said it applies exclusively to this island.

Sure; music, dance, language (both English and Irish), literature, film/TV, etc etc... and stuff...

They are commonalities.

Actually, when they make Irish obligatory in school

Where?

So, the whole of Ireland has to unite with them, because the border areas are not unalike them?

Again you're attributing stuff to me I haven't said.

I think you are pretending, or in denial.

Nope. It's your artful interpretation of my posts thats stands out more.

We realistically stopped being one nation a good few years ago.

Nation versus state. Are they one and the same in an Irish context?

You might disagree, but in my experience, this would be for ideological rather than practical reasons.

Once again, looking for things I haven't said.

Sheldons Brain

There is a lot of waffle here, as usual. Anyone who thinks that culture in the Republic has as much in common with England as NI only has to go to a funeral.

So, the whole of Ireland has to unite with them, because the border areas are not unalike them?

The opposite side of the coin is why should Irish people in Belcoo should be treated in an inferior way to Irish people in Blacklion? Is "equality" not all the rage these days?

Richard

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The Isle of Man is a weird one. Parts of it feel very British (Douglas and Onchan) but other areas (Peel and Ramsey) definitely have their own feel and culture to them. The accent is very similar with parts of England but they're quite militant that they're a separate nation and the only Manx I've dealt with will react with hostility to the suggestion that the IoM is part of the UK.

Well it's not part of the UK, never has been, although it is British (mind you I'm not sure whether they feel particularly British).

Richard

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

There is a lot of waffle here, as usual. Anyone who thinks that culture in the Republic has as much in common with England as NI only has to go to a funeral.

Depends on the funeral.

Obviously NI has more in common with the Republic than England does, although there are big differences as well as the similarities. Mind you England and the Republic share the concept of "normal politics" which NI still hasn't managed to grasp yet.

The opposite side of the coin is why should Irish people in Belcoo should be treated in an inferior way to Irish people in Blacklion? Is "equality" not all the rage these days?

Different doesn't mean inferior.

ancapailldorcha

Richard wrote: »

Well it's not part of the UK, never has been, although it is British (mind you I'm not sure whether they feel particularly British).

They don't. I was threatened with violence once by a rather large Manx chap for asking if they were British.

spank_inferno

Richard wrote: »

Well it's not part of the UK, never has been, although it is British (mind you I'm not sure whether they feel particularly British).

What country is the Isle of Man part of?

ancapailldorcha

spank_inferno wrote: »

What country is the Isle of Man part of?

It's a self-governing nation, though the UK is responsible for it's defence.

on the river

that is correct

on the river

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZT8YTNYph8

This shows the view of the ctiizens of Northern Ireland

Richard

on the river wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZT8YTNYph8

This shows the view of the ctiizens of Northern Ireland

That's an interesting report.

ChicagoJoe

on the river wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZT8YTNYph8

This shows the view of the ctiizens of Northern Ireland

I wouldn't take a poll by a very British institution like the BBC too seriously, let's say if the GAA comissioned a poll on a United Ireland, I bet the findings would be very pro a UI. From what I have seen down the years almost all of these ' offical ' polls always seem to concur with the ambitions of the British/unionists.

Take the NILT 2010 poll - DUP 18%, SDLP 17%, UUP 16%, Sinn Fein 11%, Alliance 10%.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/POLPART2.html

But how they actually voted - DUP 24.96%, SDLP 16.47%, UUP 15.19% Sinn Fein 25.52%
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/election/2010west/rw2010.htm

ChicagoJoe

Richard wrote: »

That's an interesting report.

I would not bother too much with it, if the unionists/British had any real belief in its findings they would want a border poll immediately. The fact that they don't says how afraid of it they are (even though I'd think the unionists would win but it would only be 4 or 5%).

RoyalCelt

Just on the topic of unity lads, what sports on this island are united and what sports are divided between north and south.

United: Cricket, Rugby, GAA
Separate: Soccer, Pool, Olympics they either go with republic or UK.

What other sports are there either united or separate?

And i wonder will we ever united for soccer, considering both sides could really do with it.

seachto7

All depends what you mean by "united".

I don't think you would get many Protestants, if any, playing GAA in NI, same as you might not get many Catholics playing rugby, though I would imagine the soccer scene is all encompasing, but still "divided" in terms of who supports who.

There is, from what I can see, a fairly nationalist/republican atmosphere at GAA matches in NI. I think Ravenhill try to aim for a more neutral atmosphere at the rugby. I don't think I have ever seen a union jack at an Ulster game, and saw an NI flag once at an away game. But I wouldn't say rugby is any less middle class than the GAA, well down south, the GAA is a very middle class game now.

I don't think we'll ever see a united soccer team. I would like to see it. I couldn't care less if it were called the teletubbies 11 instead of "Ireland" and I couldn't care less if the anthem was an ice cream van jingle, the idea of all "communities" getting behind the one team would be good enough for me.

Much as the loyalists/unionists like to bang on about Britain, the fact is they are not English, Scottish or Welsh, and are Irish (and British) whether they like it or not, due to the fact they are born and raised on the rock that is geographically called "Ireland".

But you only have to go online to see the propaganda being spread by extremists on both sides which only goes to divide people further.

oscarBravo

seachto7 wrote: »

Much as the loyalists/unionists like to bang on about Britain, the fact is they are not English, Scottish or Welsh, and are Irish (and British) whether they like it or not, due to the fact they are born and raised on the rock that is geographically called "Ireland".

But you only have to go online to see the propaganda being spread by extremists on both sides which only goes to divide people further.

Indeed.