Australian Open 2014

Pighead

Mousewar wrote: »

Oh dear god. Sorry, but I have to assume you don't actually watch this sport. This isn't a conspiracy theory. You do know they openly admit to slowing them down...

Seems like a lot of the the players disagree with you. Nadal says they're playing faster than they have ever played before.
http://tennis.si.com/2014/01/11/roger-federer-rafael-nadal-andy-murray-australian-open-court-speed/

Mousewar

Pighead wrote: »

Seems like a lot of the the players disagree with you. Nadal says they're playing faster than they have ever played before.
http://tennis.si.com/2014/01/11/roger-federer-rafael-nadal-andy-murray-australian-open-court-speed/

Seriously? That's an article about this year's tournament in which Nadal says it's playing faster than previous years, i.e. late noughties and early 2010s. How is that relevant to a comparison between today and the 90s?
And even in that article, Federer and Murray both disagree with him.

Pighead

Mousewar wrote: »

Seriously? That's an article about this year's tournament in which Nadal says it's playing faster than previous years, i.e. late noughties and early 2010s. How is that relevant to a comparison between today and the 90s?
And even in that article, Federer and Murray both disagree with him.

Ok so there's a quote from Roger saying he doesn't notice much change going back as far as 2001. So now we are almost back in the 90's and the greatest player of all time is saying the speeds haven't adjusted too much. Again I will say you are overestimating how much the courts have been slowed.


Roger Federer on Wimbledon speed (2008.).:
Well, I don’t think it’s that much of a difference since I played Pete here in 2001 really. So, I mean, it’s not that extreme, you know, to the point where I need to thank anybody, I think, you know.
I think it’s just also the way how players are playing today: more from the baseline, not as much serve and volley, chip and charge. That sort of gives you the feeling that it’s slowed down, as well, you know.
Because 95% of the guys play from the baseline today, whereas before it was maybe 50/50. That is a big change, I think, and that’s happened in the last, let’s say, 10, 15 years.

Rafael Nadal on the court speed at Wimbledon (2007):
I saw, I don’t know where, that the court was so much slower than last years. The true is not. For me the court is the same. I was here the last maybe four years. I lost one time for injury. But for the last four, five years I was here. Every day I feel the same feeling. Every time I feel the same feeling in the court. The court is not coming slower than last years.

Rafael Nadal on court speed at Wimbledon (2007):
"The truth is that now the players are so good that if it is a fast court, then when you serve and go to the net the ball flies past you even quicker."

Mousewar

You're quoting players that play in this era and one (Nadal) who goes out of his way to deny something that's obvious as it's used as an argument against him. For every quote you come up I'll come up with two more that are more relevant.
Here's one from Federer directly contradicting himself

Roger Federer on Wimbledon court speeds (2010):
"Well, I still think, you know, it’s a touch too slow. Indoors I think our game has slowed down drastically...I still wish it was faster, but I’m not complaining. I’ve played fantastic here over the years obviously in these conditions."

Marat Safin 2008 Wimbledon
I played well because I think the courts, they has been getting slower and slower throughout the years. So it’s not any more like they used to be like eight years ago. It was really fast, and now you can play from the baseline and nobody even getting close to the net.

Mikhail Youzhny on Wimbledon and ATP surfaces (2008):
Yeah, now it’s all courts slower than it was before. We don’t have now fast surface, only one tournament what I know, one tournament on the grass where it was fast. Now the tournament is surface slower and slower. That’s why it is too many Latino guys and Spanish guys start to play good on hard, on grass. Before it was much easier to play against these guys on grass and hard court. Now it’s not a big difference between surface.

How about people that actually played in both eras??

Thomas Johansson (2005):
It’s pretty slow, I would say. You could easily stay back, which I do pretty much all the time. But you can also play serve and volley, of course. But I think it’s a lot slower this year than it was maybe five years ago. I don’t know if it’s the court or if it’s the balls.

Tim Henman 2014
"Game has changed so much. I stopped in 2007, now the surfaces are slower, the balls are heavier, so it is harder for players to come on net. "

MisterAnarchy

Couple more quotes

Mardy Fish (2009):
I think the balls have a huge thing to do with it. They’re so heavy. I mean, you know, I’m usually right around the 128, 132-ish area on my first serve for the most part. I think I probably hit one serve 130 today, you know.
So the balls are really heavy. You know, I think those guys that like to stay back, they just feel like they can kind of take a cut at the ball and it’s not really gonna fly too much, you know, ’cause the balls are pretty heavy.
You know, the grass is so good, you know, it just bounces up there just like a hard court. If you don’t hit the approach, you know, years past you could kind of come to the net and maybe get away with a slice or a bad slice or a bad approach or just, you know, approach in general, and you just can’t do that anymore against good players here.

Novak Djokovic on playing on grass (2011):
It is the fastest surface that we have in the sport, but it is definitely slower than it used to be and the ball bounces higher, which I think is more suitable to my style of the game, to the baseliners, and it’s why we see more rallies more often on the grass courts nowadays.

Compare the speed of the court in this video at the US Open in 2006 to nowadays,its chalk and cheese

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U19L5VqtlzE

walshb

One thing's certain: These players sure love the saying, "You know."

Pighead

Mousewar wrote: »

You're quoting players that play in this era and one (Nadal) who goes out of his way to deny something that's obvious as it's used as an argument against him. For every quote you come up I'll come up with two more that are more relevant.
Here's one from Federer directly contradicting himself

Roger Federer on Wimbledon court speeds (2010):
"Well, I still think, you know, it’s a touch too slow. Indoors I think our game has slowed down drastically...I still wish it was faster, but I’m not complaining. I’ve played fantastic here over the years obviously in these conditions."

Marat Safin 2008 Wimbledon
I played well because I think the courts, they has been getting slower and slower throughout the years. So it’s not any more like they used to be like eight years ago. It was really fast, and now you can play from the baseline and nobody even getting close to the net.

Mikhail Youzhny on Wimbledon and ATP surfaces (2008):
Yeah, now it’s all courts slower than it was before. We don’t have now fast surface, only one tournament what I know, one tournament on the grass where it was fast. Now the tournament is surface slower and slower. That’s why it is too many Latino guys and Spanish guys start to play good on hard, on grass. Before it was much easier to play against these guys on grass and hard court. Now it’s not a big difference between surface.

How about people that actually played in both eras??

Thomas Johansson (2005):
It’s pretty slow, I would say. You could easily stay back, which I do pretty much all the time. But you can also play serve and volley, of course. But I think it’s a lot slower this year than it was maybe five years ago. I don’t know if it’s the court or if it’s the balls.

Tim Henman 2014
"Game has changed so much. I stopped in 2007, now the surfaces are slower, the balls are heavier, so it is harder for players to come on net. "

Ok so it looks like players testimony can't be trusted then. When people like you say courts are 'much slower than they were in the 90's' where are you getting your info from? How do you know how much it has slowed down by? As far as I know nobody in any official circles have produced data which shows significant differences in court speeds. Of course they have slowed but is it really by as much as you claim?


As far as I can see there is no objective, statistically significant study that examines the difference between court speeds over the years.
ie your arguments are guesswork and seemingly designed to tarnish Nadal's achievements. You seem to have an irrational dislike towards him.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Serena Williams said earlier this year that it's much easier to make the change between surfaces and win on them all because there's barely any difference in them. She was talking about now compared to when she started playing, which was the 90's

Mousewar

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Serena Williams said earlier this year that it's much easier to make the change between surfaces and win on them all because there's barely any difference in them. She was talking about now compared to when she started playing, which was the 90's

Absolutely. Just look at Bjorn Borg. Before Nadal he was the last man to win the FO and Wimbledon in the same year. Back then it was a really hard thing to do. In Paris he had to play baseline tennis. A lot of rallies and a lot of grinding. Then just two weeks later he had to come to Wimbledon and play a completely different game - attacking serve and volley. It was really hard to win on these two utterly different surfaces so close to one another. That he could manage this change is what makes him a great.
Nadal has won both tournaments in the same year twice now and does so playing the exact same style of tennis in both. In the FO he plays defensive baseline grinding and then he heads to wimbledon and carries on exactly the same. It's just not the same achievement. And it would have been unthinkable to do this anytime prior to the millennium.

The last time was 1980. Nadal did it 28 years later. No one else did it the meantime because it was a really hard thing to do. Now Nadal has done it twice and Federer once.

John.Icy

Seriously Pighead, watch that US Open 2006 video above. If you really think the courts aren't slower today then I don't even know.

Mousewar

Pighead wrote: »

Ok so it looks like players testimony can't be trusted then. When people like you say courts are 'much slower than they were in the 90's' where are you getting your info from? How do you know how much it has slowed down by? As far as I know nobody in any official circles have produced data which shows significant differences in court speeds. Of course they have slowed but is it really by as much as you claim?

Well actually they are as long as you don't pick out the minority of quotes that support you view. The overwhelming majority of players say it's slower. And remember it's not just the courts, it's the balls and the racquet technology that makes it easier to return serves and hard shots with less technique.

As for Wimbledon, Eddie Seaward, the Wimbledon groundsman until recently, deliberately changed the grass in 2001 in response to viewer complaints and Spanish players who refused to play as they always lost in the first round. He switched to 100% perennial ryegrass seed resulting in a higher bounce and slower tennis.

mickmackey1

But still Murray has won Wimbledon and the US but never even got to a final in Paris.. there must still be quite a difference.

Mousewar

mickmackey1 wrote: »

But still Murray has won Wimbledon and the US but never even got to a final in Paris.. there must still be quite a difference.

Movement on clay is very different. Murray isn't a tremendous slider which is very important there. Also, the bounce is definitely still higher there which favours Nadal even more than other courts.

Pighead

Mousewar wrote: »

The last time was 1980. Nadal did it 28 years later. No one else did it the meantime because it was a really hard thing to do. Now Nadal has done it twice and Federer once.

Eh what on earth is this proving? It shows that only the very best players can achieve the French Open/Wimbledon double. Borg actually did the double more than Rafa/Roger have managed so far. Does that mean it was a bit easier back then?

Pighead

John.Icy wrote: »

Seriously Pighead, watch that US Open 2006 video above. If you really think the courts aren't slower today then I don't even know.

How the hell are you people judging this? Do you have speed guns for eyes? As I have already stated I do accept that perhaps the courts were slower in 2006 than now but I honestly could not notice from watching that video compared to this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYBoQuaPsw

And still not one single piece of official testimony from the people who set up the courts.

Mousewar

Pighead wrote: »

Eh what on earth is this proving? It shows that only the very best players can achieve the French Open/Wimbledon double. Borg actually did the double more than Rafa/Roger have managed so far. Does that mean it was a bit easier back then?

I went on to explain the differences in how they did it and what that tells us. Did you miss that part?

Pighead

Mousewar wrote: »

I went on to explain the differences in how they did it and what that tells us. Did you miss that part?

I seen you ignore the way Nadal made adjustments to his game and adapted to grass. His volleying has improved so so much over the years and it is a very underrated part of his game. To say his game revolves around bashing it from the baseline is ridiculous. You honestly are not giving Nadal enough credit. He will finish his career as the best player to have played the game.

John.Icy

Pighead wrote: »

How the hell are you people judging this? Do you have speed guns for eyes? As I have already stated I do accept that perhaps the courts were slower in 2006 than now but I honestly could not notice from watching that video compared to this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYBoQuaPsw

And still not one single piece of official testimony from the people who set up the courts.

To one and their own I guess. The video you posted for me looks super slow compared to the 2006 one. Can you not see any difference in the zip the balls used to rip through the courts with, how low and fast they'd bounce, that ping sound?? That's just not the way it is nowadays.

And you can keep rambling on and on about no evidence posted but several posters already have. Serena has said it, Federer often says it, heck how on earth have you missed out on Rafa complaining that the courts should be slowed even further? I'm gonna bow out of the court debate now because I think I'm going to value those three greats of the game over yourself.

Also I did one tiny little google search;

''In 2002, Wimbledon altered its grass, creating a thicker, more durable turf that slows the ball down and allows it to bounce higher, rather than skid, and baseliners have ruled ever since. Jim Curley, tournament director at the U.S. Open, said organizers began slowing their own courts down in 2002, adding extra sand to the paint, and did so again before the 2003 tournament to make the court fair for baseliners and serve-and-volleyers alike.''

Go ahead, ignore that evidence too if you please.

Pighead

John.Icy wrote: »

Also I did one tiny little google search;

''In 2002, Wimbledon altered its grass, creating a thicker, more durable turf that slows the ball down and allows it to bounce higher, rather than skid, and baseliners have ruled ever since. Jim Curley, tournament director at the U.S. Open, said organizers began slowing their own courts down in 2002, adding extra sand to the paint, and did so again before the 2003 tournament to make the court fair for baseliners and serve-and-volleyers alike.''

Go ahead, ignore that evidence too if you please.

I'm not ignoring anything. I have repeatedly said that I accept that the courts may have become slower over the years but I have been questioning yours and others claims that it is MUCH slower than it used to be.

Here's the USTA quotes regarding Jim Curley changing the speeds.

"When Jim Curley became the tournament director in 2001, we tweaked the speed, making them slightly slower. After 2002, we did it again.

"Since 2003, we've been using the exact same formula. They have been designed to be played at the same speed for the last six years."

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/notebook?page=notebook/tennis09032009.


If the USTA are telling the truth and you seem to believe them given you've quoted Jim Curley) it means that there has been a very slight change since the early 2000's and according to the above article there are plenty saying that it has speeded up since 2009.

RosyLily

Nothing worse than exams getting in the way of tennis watching!!:mad:

Impressed by Stan. Disappointed by Aga in her last match...will probably be the best chance she has of winning a GS.

Annoyingly, that's bout as much as I've seen this year.:(

WaterLily.

I have to say that recently Ive been finding it very difficult to read this thread. The whole slower courts discussion is getting very tedious to me, some people are acting like they are being forced to watch paint dry or something. If you hate it that much or a specific player that much then dont watch it! Just my 2 cents. Personally I would much rather watch longer baseline rallys than 2 6ft10 guys banging down ace after ace.

I really enjoyed the match today, I thought Roger did well at first but as I expected he just couldnt keep it up. I thought Rafa played fantastically throughout really.

Cant wait for sunday, I think it will be closer than people think. Come on Stan

yerwanthere123

RosyLily wrote: »

Nothing worse than exams getting in the way of tennis watching!!:mad:

Impressed by Stan. Disappointed by Aga in her last match...will probably be the best chance she has of winning a GS.

Annoyingly, that's bout as much as I've seen this year.:(

I'm still disappointed! After she let Wimbledon slip last Summer, I thought it might never happen again that she'd be in the semi's with Serena, Vika and Sharapova all knocked out. Then for it to happen just a few months later, and she rolls over for Cibulkova... ugh.

Mousewar

WaterLily. wrote: »

I have to say that recently Ive been finding it very difficult to read this thread. The whole slower courts discussion is getting very tedious to me, some people are acting like they are being forced to watch paint dry or something. If you hate it that much or a specific player that much then dont watch it! Just my 2 cents. Personally I would much rather watch longer baseline rallys than 2 6ft10 guys banging down ace after ace.

I really enjoyed the match today, I thought Roger did well at first but as I expected he just couldnt keep it up. I thought Rafa played fantastically throughout really.

Cant wait for sunday, I think it will be closer than people think. Come on Stan

Hmmm. By that logic maybe you shouldn't read the thread if you find it so difficult and tedious?

Rjd2

John.Icy wrote: »

Take from it what you will I guess. At the end of the day people can make of it what they want, Federer totally outclassed Murray for 2 and a half sets who was still playing well and not suffering in the slightest till the 4th set. Federer looked a class act against Tsonga too who at the end of the day is a player who can beat the best.

Last year Federer was losing to players of Tsonga's standard and lower. Everyone was doubting him against Tsonga, 95% of people here gave him no chance against Murray and he got through it. Yes he was outclassed in the 2nd two sets (a tiebreak is hardly being outclassed lets be honest), but there was no tactical structure (total mess) and the backhand was nowhere near as solid as it's been and Federer drove I don't know how many shots into the net in a position where the point was up for grabs. It'll probably never happen against Nadal at a slam because there is a script these GS matches between them follows and it's not going to change unless Federer has a mental reset. But form is there and he's definitely taken a step forward and if he stays fit, there'll be more semi-finals and possibly a Wimbledon final pending if he can avoid Nadal as long as possible in draws.

Murray is not ready and he has made no secret of this, he had a run of mugs to get to the qurter final, Mayer outclassed him the other week ffs.

Tsonga was avaergae and shown **** all resistance but not the first time he has rolled over in a Slam sadly.

Roger was very poor, he shanked so many forehand shots and his backhand failed, so often at crucial times. Dimitrov in his first Grand Slam Quarter final was a much more difficult assignment for Rafa than Roger which says it all really.

efb

Come on Li Na!

Blinkfrog

Rjd2 wrote: »

Murray is not ready and he has made no secret of this, he had a run of mugs to get to the qurter final, Mayer outclassed him the other week ffs.

Tsonga was avaergae and shown **** all resistance but not the first time he has rolled over in a Slam sadly.

Roger was very poor, he shanked so many forehand shots and his backhand failed, so often at crucial times. Dimitrov in his first Grand Slam Quarter final was a much more difficult assignment for Rafa than Roger which says it all really.

Federer will have a much better 2014 than 2013, he's playing better.

It's amazing he can reach such a high level at 32.

I doubt any 30 + player has played as well. Maybe Jimmy Connors, maybe.

yerwanthere123

Shame that the second set was so lopsided, but the right result. Congrats Li! Equals Azarenka for slams now, weirdly. Also, unless Vika defends her Doha title, Li will be world #2! Will be interesting to see where Cibulkova goes from here also.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mousewar wrote: »

Hmmm. By that logic maybe you shouldn't read the thread if you find it so difficult and tedious?

To be fair this thread is supposed to be for discussing the Australian Open.

The topic of court speed comes up time and time again. I think maybe more people are in this forum during slams so some may think it's a new topic but for those of us who contribute here all year long it's been discussed to death.

I'm not saying don't discuss it but maybe start a new thread, or take it to the "In Between Slams" thread.

walshb

The court speed and ball speed debate is tedious. Good to read some points and statistics, but some place far too much emphasis on it, and it revolves around Nadal. The man is a top 5 ever player. He has won on all surfaces consistently. When will the excuses end?

As for baseline vs, serve and volley. Many claim baseline is boring. I think serve and volley is more so. The rallies end far too quickly. The most exciting rallies are from the baseline. Yes, some can be boring, but many are epic.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Nice to see lots of WTA players congratulating Li Na on twitter. The press love to paint the women as bitches and create these rivalries and stories out of nowhere. Li Na seems to be universally liked.