Training contract with small firm

Gael23

What are people's opinions on qualifying with small firms versus medium to big4?
I've seen jobs on the CAI website in smaller firms with 4 partners or less. I'm a bit unsure of the future prospects after you come off contract when you have a less known firm on your CV and your work has been mainly with small businesses or self employed people so you might not have exposure to bigger audits or tax jobs.

stephen1990

Don't mind that nonsense of having to work in a big 4 firm to have a good CV or whatever...your main aim is to pass the exams and you'll come out with the exact same qualification as someone that has worked in the big 4 and will have a less miserable 3 and a half years on top if it

Gael23

Well that's one way of looking at it. The firm I'm looking at seems to work for small business like doctors etc so I'm really just thinking about how that sort of work would be viewed once the 3.5 years is up.

viztopia

The big 4 take on lots of people who have qualified from small firms all the time

dbran

stephen1990 wrote: »

Don't mind that nonsense of having to work in a big 4 firm to have a good CV or whatever...your main aim is to pass the exams and you'll come out with the exact same qualification as someone that has worked in the big 4 and will have a less miserable 3 and a half years on top if it

This is not true in reality.

For some larger financial controller jobs afterwards having a big 4 training on your cv is not just desirable but is a prerequiste.

stephen1990

dbran wrote: »

This is not true in reality.

For some larger financial controller jobs afterwards having a big 4 training on your cv is not just desirable but is a prerequiste.

you could move to the big 4 after you qualify, I don't think larger financial controller jobs hire people just with 3.5 years training in the big 4.

get your qualification and ya'll be fine.

Gael23

stephen1990 wrote: »

you could move to the big 4 after you qualify, I don't think larger financial controller jobs hire people just with 3.5 years training in the big 4.

get your qualification and ya'll be fine.

Big4 firms won't even read an application without a 2:1. Part of me is considering doing a masters to get that 2:1 then apply next year but now my opinion of small firms is starting to change.

Martin567

I trained in a small firm and have never worked in a very big firm. I can only say that you will get a very good and rounded training in a small firm. You will basically do a bit of everything and be familiar with the basics of most things an accountant does.

From what I can gather, those who train in the large firms get a very specialised training. Therefore they are extremely knowledgeable in certain things but there can be huge gaps in their training. I worked with two newly qualified accountants from KPMG who didn't have even the first idea how to prepare a set of accounts. I would consider there to be a fairly fundamental problem with that type of training for a supposedly qualified accountant.

I never worked for a firm with more than three partners but I did work on the audits of countless companies with a turnover of 30m or far more per annum. I also think I got a far better understanding of the clients and how everything pulled together than I would on the audit of a PLC for example.

Nika Bolokov

You will work with more sophisticated clients in a Big 4, especially in financial services, its harder to get in so the people you work with are very smart, there are international opportunities with a Big 4 firm which dont exist in small firms and you see how massive successful companies are run. Small firm trained accountants always say that Big 4 trained accountants dont get a broad training. Not true. Small firm trained accountants only work on small engagements. At a Big 4 you do both.

Lot of jobs say Big 4 trained now also....

Cyrus

stephen1990 wrote: »

Don't mind that nonsense of having to work in a big 4 firm to have a good CV or whatever...your main aim is to pass the exams and you'll come out with the exact same qualification as someone that has worked in the big 4 and will have a less miserable 3 and a half years on top if it

Terrible advice
If you get offered a big 4 role take it better pay better future prospects

viztopia

Cyrus wrote: »

Terrible advice
If you get offered a big 4 role take it better pay better future prospects

Not always true. I know a former work colleague who worked in one of the big 4. He was expected to work all the hours of the day and weekend for a flat salary. He took a €5k pay cut to work some where else after 1 year.

Martin567

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

Small firm trained accountants always say that Big 4 trained accountants dont get a broad training. Not true. Small firm trained accountants only work on small engagements. At a Big 4 you do both.

Lot of jobs say Big 4 trained now also....

What is a small engagement? I doubt everyone's definition is the same?

I can only reiterate that I worked briefly with two KPMG trained accountants who had no idea how to prepare a set of accounts. I've never met anybody who trained in a smaller firm who lacked such basic skills. I think it's fair to say those two people didn't get a broad training!

I've never understood how anyone could audit another person's work if they don't fundamentally understand how that work was done or what was involved in doing it.

Gael23

Well I'm not going to graduate with a 2:1 so that rules out the big4 and quite a number of other firms demand that also. So basically my choices are to go with a smaller firm that will consider you without a 2:1 or else do a masters and apply on the next milkround.

Martin567

ryanf1 wrote: »

Well I'm not going to graduate with a 2:1 so that rules out the big4 and quite a number of other firms demand that also. So basically my choices are to go with a smaller firm that will consider you without a 2:1 or else do a masters and apply on the next milkround.

Good luck in whatever you decide. Some people are likely to be far happier working in a smaller firm than in a much larger firm. I'm one of them. Have a think about what sort of work environment might suit you best.

There are hundreds of firms in this country. I'm hardly alone in not considering a four partner firm to be small in any way!

Gael23

Martin567 wrote: »

Good luck in whatever you decide. Some people are likely to be far happier working in a smaller firm than in a much larger firm. I'm one of them. Have a think about what sort of work environment might suit you best.

There are hundreds of firms in this country. I'm hardly alone in not considering a four partner firm to be small in any way!

Of course not!
One I have seen advertised has a partner, director and 2 managers according to their website. Not sure if I'm allowed name them here but I would be considering that very small.

Martin567

ryanf1 wrote: »

Of course not!
One I have seen advertised has a partner, director and 2 managers according to their website. Not sure if I'm allowed name them here but I would be considering that very small.

It's obviously not big but there would be many far smaller. Even so, they could have a lot of really good clients.

smcgiff

ryanf1 wrote: »

Not sure if I'm allowed name them here...

Nothing to be gained from it. Thanks.

Cyrus

viztopia wrote: »

Not always true. I know a former work colleague who worked in one of the big 4. He was expected to work all the hours of the day and weekend for a flat salary. He took a €5k pay cut to work some where else after 1 year.

So you proved my point he took a paycut to leave

Some people can't hack it at a big 4 some departments can expect a lot, however completing your training at one will in the vast majority of cases have a positive impact on your earning potential versus someone from a small firm

smcgiff

Cyrus wrote: »

So you proved my point he took a paycut to leave

Some people can't hack it at a big 4 some departments can expect a lot, however completing your training at one will in the vast majority of cases have a positive impact on your earning potential versus someone from a small firm

There are definite advantages to going down the
big 4 route. The main one is the requirements of some in large companies looking for candidates from their alma mater.


Now, whether they are actually better trained accountants is debatable. They are more likely to have experience of working with large companies, but less likely to be a more rounded accountant.

Gael23

smcgiff wrote: »

T
Now, whether they are actually better trained accountants is debatable. They are more likely to have experience of working with large companies, but less likely to be a more rounded accountant.

I do think its true that you get a moe varied experience in a smaller firm alright but my concern is that when the training contract ends, I will be less desirable.

smcgiff

ryanf1 wrote: »

I do think its true that you get a moe varied experience in a smaller firm alright but my concern is that when the training contract ends, I will be less desirable.

If you want to work in multi nationals then the top 5 or six are the way to go if you can. For example I cannot imagine someone coming from the likes of BDO would be at much of a disadvantage over, say, KPMG.

brinty

Ryanf1, it all depends on what way you want to progress in your career really. Do you want to stay in practice post qualification, if you do maybe stay and do the masters and then try for the big 4 next year. It would also help if you intended to continue on working in the financial services sector.

If you want to go into industry and work in day to day operations then having a background from a smaller accountancy firm would give you distinct advantage in that you'd understand how a business works.

If your based in Waterford and intend to stay there's plenty of good non big 4 practices in the city.

Don't get too hung up on traing in the Big 4. I trained in a 2 partner practice and hasn't held me back thus far. I now work for a MNC in their financial services centre, a minimum requirement was Big 4 training but I still got in because i was well rounded based on the experience i gaianed over the years.

If you want any help drop me a PM.

Cyrus

smcgiff wrote: »

There are definite advantages to going down the
big 4 route. The main one is the requirements of some in large companies looking for candidates from their alma mater.


Now, whether they are actually better trained accountants is debatable. They are more likely to have experience of working with large companies, but less likely to be a more rounded accountant.

absolutely agree, not debating that point at all,

the reality is though that in most larger companies (that pay bigger wages) its where you worked and who you worked for, not what you did

littlemiss123

Just giving my 2 cents worth...

I faced exactly the same dilemma coming out of college. I was offered trainee positions in all the Big 4 firms, including one job in consultancy where there were only 2 jobs going. However, I turned them down and took a (very big) gamble and a pay cut to work in a small 2-partner accountancy firm outside the city because I personally felt that a positive working environment was the most important factor for me.

2 years down the line I can confidently say I don't regret my decision at all. I am treated extremely well and with the respect that everyone should be afforded in the professional life, regardless of whether they are a trainee or partner. I have a close working relationship with both partners and deal with clients the world over including America, Singapore, India, Cayman Islands, Malta to name but a few, and have the opportunity to travel to such locations. I deal with big 4 auditors every day and would not call their knowledge or training superior to my own. I feel I am getting a well rounded experience, and have the bonus of never having to work a single weekend, or even past 8pm. In addition, because there are fewer trainees it gives you a chance to shine and be noticed, rather than just fading into the mass of other trainees around you.

Of course, having never worked in a Big 4 my opinion is going to be biased, and despite the horror stories, I'm sure the Big 4 does provide valuable experience. However, what does annoy me is this mentality that your career as an accountant is over before its begun if you didn't train in the Big 4, or that you have to 'earn your stripes' by going through 3 1/2 years of hell to be a respected accountant. There are excellent opportunities out there if you think outside the box and take a leap!

TitianGerm

littlemiss123 wrote: »

Just giving my 2 cents worth...

I faced exactly the same dilemma coming out of college. I was offered trainee positions in all the Big 4 firms, including one job in consultancy where there were only 2 jobs going. However, I turned them down and took a (very big) gamble and a pay cut to work in a small 2-partner accountancy firm outside the city because I personally felt that a positive working environment was the most important factor for me.

2 years down the line I can confidently say I don't regret my decision at all. I am treated extremely well and with the respect that everyone should be afforded in the professional life, regardless of whether they are a trainee or partner. I have a close working relationship with both partners and deal with clients the world over including America, Singapore, India, Cayman Islands, Malta to name but a few, and have the opportunity to travel to such locations. I deal with big 4 auditors every day and would not call their knowledge or training superior to my own. I feel I am getting a well rounded experience, and have the bonus of never having to work a single weekend, or even past 8pm. In addition, because there are fewer trainees it gives you a chance to shine and be noticed, rather than just fading into the mass of other trainees around you.

Of course, having never worked in a Big 4 my opinion is going to be biased, and despite the horror stories, I'm sure the Big 4 does provide valuable experience. However, what does annoy me is this mentality that your career as an accountant is over before its begun if you didn't train in the Big 4, or that you have to 'earn your stripes' by going through 3 1/2 years of hell to be a respected accountant. There are excellent opportunities out there if you think outside the box and take a leap!

Great advice littlemiss. I actually am in a slightly different situation as I got a 2.2 in college and struggled to find a training contract. I started the elevation program with the institute in 2012 i think. Since tthen I've got a job with one of the top twenty firms but am working in one of the smaller offices, just myself and 3 qualified accountants, i have to say it's great. I do my utmost to impress each day and put in a hard slog. I started in September and have only worked past 6 twice although I've offered to stay late on countless other times during tax return deadline time and while we were doing audits before Christmas, each time I've been told by my manager that I've done more than enough and it's time to go home. The relationship I've built with my co-workers is great and i know if I've any problems i can go to any of them for advice.
Do not discount the smaller firms. You will get a great training regardless. But remember you will only progress in your career if you show grit and determination and a willingness to strive to be the best you can, and this alone will impress future employers more than having a big 4 on your CV.
Apologies for the poor punctuation and spelling, im typing this on a phone

littlemiss123

emmetkenny wrote: »

Great advice littlemiss. I actually am in a slightly different situation as I got a 2.2 in college and struggled to find a training contract. I started the elevation program with the institute in 2012 i think. Since tthen I've got a job with one of the top twenty firms but am working in one of the smaller offices, just myself and 3 qualified accountants, i have to say it's great. I do my utmost to impress each day and put in a hard slog. I started in September and have only worked past 6 twice although I've offered to stay late on countless other times during tax return deadline time and while we were doing audits before Christmas, each time I've been told by my manager that I've done more than enough and it's time to go home. The relationship I've built with my co-workers is great and i know if I've any problems i can go to any of them for advice.
Do not discount the smaller firms. You will get a great training regardless. But remember you will only progress in your career if you show grit and determination and a willingness to strive to be the best you can, and this alone will impress future employers more than having a big 4 on your CV.
Apologies for the poor punctuation and spelling, im typing this on a phone

I agree, in a small firm you develop such a close relationship with those around you, the free-rider problem is eliminated and you have to (and want to) pull your weight to impress. I am the same, I say I have never stayed past 8 but I can honestly say I have only ever had to stay past half 5 on about 10-15 occasions in the last 2 years. I always offer to stay and help, same as yourself, but am always told its fine and to head away. Anytime I do stay late or bust my balls to meet a deadline I am always met with a thanks and the utmost appreciation or a handshake and a 'job well done'. I would not replace any of that just to have the Big 4 on my CV.

TitianGerm

littlemiss123 wrote: »

I agree, in a small firm you develop such a close relationship with those around you, the free-rider problem is eliminated and you have to (and want to) pull your weight to impress. I am the same, I say I have never stayed past 8 but I can honestly say I have only ever had to stay past half 5 on about 10-15 occasions in the last 2 years. I always offer to stay and help, same as yourself, but am always told its fine and to head away. Anytime I do stay late or bust my balls to meet a deadline I am always met with a thanks and the utmost appreciation or a handshake and a 'job well done'. I would not replace any of that just to have the Big 4 on my CV.

That's what it is all about though. Show that you want to achieve and are willing to work hard and you will get a great sense of satisfaction out of a smaller firm. Not long after I started my manager asked me to start a project for him, he was out of the office the next day, Friday, so I worked my ass off and finished the whole thing before I left on Friday evening. I got a phone call on Saturday morning saying that he was very impressed with my work and more so because he had given me two weeks to finish it and I'd got it done in two days I left college in 2008 and worked in many jobs since 2005, it's the first time I've felt truly appreciated and it's that that makes me love going to work everyday and wanting to do well, not for myself but for the firm.
You will become a trusted advisor to many of your clients and eventually friends in many cases. This is not to be sniffed at because a lot of business will be done by SME and owner managed businesses coming out of this recession and they won't turn to the big four, they will look at the smaller firms who will get in and help build and develop their business, as smaller firms are working with these types of businesses day in and day out !!

Gael23

Would both of you have intentions of staying with your firms after your contract ends?

TitianGerm

ryanf1 wrote: »

Would both of you have intentions of staying with your firms after your contract ends?

I couldn't answer just yet 100% as I'm 5 months into a 42 month contract but the way things are going I would be happy to stay where I am for another few years and get some post qualifications experience.
All along when I was in college my plan was to get qualified then work in a Big 4 for a few years and get a tax qualification after my aca, then maybe move to revenue for a year or two or take a step sideways and work in industry. My end goal after that and a bit of travelling was to settle down and work in a small firm where I'm from or maybe set up my own practice with a few college friends, all bar one have big 4 experience.
Now however I'm very happy where I am and they are very good to work for and they gave me a chance when nobody else would so I already have a strong attachment to the firm.
But this is all for the future, and maybe they will not offer me a contract when my current one is up and I will have to reassess in two and a half years.

Immy

I trained small practice. I have a lot of friends accountants who trained in different ways and are all in different roles. I wouldn't think Big 4 was the be all and end. I got into a big 4 after spending 2 years post qualified in small practice and lasted 4 months, just not for me. You get out of your career what you put in.

littlemiss123

ryanf1 wrote: »

Would both of you have intentions of staying with your firms after your contract ends?

I can't really say for sure either. I still have another bit left on my training contract so I just don't know what I would be feeling when it's over. If it suited me at the time I definitely would, even though to be honest, I suspect I might take off for a year and work abroad somewhere on a couple of short term contracts, just for the sake of it, and then come back to my small firm. They've told me from the beginning that they will be accommodating if I wanted to travel etc after my contract is up!

Jim2007

dbran wrote: »

This is not true in reality.

For some larger financial controller jobs afterwards having a big 4 training on your cv is not just desirable but is a prerequiste.

In Ireland perhaps, but if you at senior financial positions at multinationals across Europe you'll be hard pressed to find qualified accountants, let alone big 4 experience.....

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

In Ireland perhaps, but if you at senior financial positions at multinationals across Europe you'll be hard pressed to find qualified accountants, let alone big 4 experience.....

And in senior finance positions in Ireland and the uk most people are qualified accounts, with big 4 training

CIARAN_BOYLE

I'm working in a small firm (6 professional staff, 2 partners two seniors and two trainees) and I'm enjoying it.

I started in September and have done a broad range of different activities. I've also had the opportunity to lead an audit, small client but still, to work on many different companies in different business areas. To work on sole traders, personal tax.

The big 4 has horror stories but I'm sure it works out well too sometimes.

Santi101

Would anyone know of people who went from a big firm to a small one after training?

To get experience in other areas - preparing accounts, tax etc.

Wonder if that would be a decent route to take.

Martin567

Santi101 wrote: »

Would anyone know of people who went from a big firm to a small one after training?

To get experience in other areas - preparing accounts, tax etc.

Wonder if that would be a decent route to take.

The problem I would see is that a newly qualified Big 4 trained accountant will usually have certain salary expectations. It is unlikely that a small firm will be able to carry such a person while they learn the basics and still pay the required salary.

Is there not something fundamentally wrong with a system where people can qualify as accountants after receiving little or no training in how to prepare a set of accounts?

Cyrus

folks

there is no doubt that jobs in a smaller firm can be very fulfilling, that you can get a more rounded training experience etc, i dont think anyone would dispute that.

but the query was about future prospects, in that respect there is no comparison. when you finish your big 4 training contract your salary expectations will be at the 50k mark, someone leaving a small firm could be 15k less than that, and from what i've seen recently in hiring some qualified accountants that salary gap tends to exist for quite some time (obviously there are exceptions in both cases but i am speaking in generalities)

Martin567

Define future prospects. Is it about salary and nothing else?

It may well be that the OP is thinking exactly that and if so they should probably follow the advice above. While a decent salary is of course important, I'm old enough now to have that far from my number one priority. Quite simply, there are more important things in life. Just to use round figures as an example, I would far, far prefer to earn 60k doing something I enjoyed rather than 100k doing something I hated. The extra money is simply not worth the misery.

Some people may laugh and maybe I'm in a small minority thinking like that among users of this forum. I just think that those thinking of a future career path should have more in mind than simply maximising their future salary. There is much more to life than that and it is a route not suited to many very intelligent people.

Cyrus

Martin567 wrote: »

Define future prospects. Is it about salary and nothing else?

It may well be that the OP is thinking exactly that and if so they should probably follow the advice above. While a decent salary is of course important, I'm old enough now to have that far from my number one priority. Quite simply, there are more important things in life. Just to use round figures as an example, I would far, far prefer to earn 60k doing something I enjoyed rather than 100k doing something I hated. The extra money is simply not worth the misery.

Some people may laugh and maybe I'm in a small minority thinking like that among users of this forum. I just think that those thinking of a future career path should have more in mind than simply maximising their future salary. There is much more to life than that and it is a route not suited to many very intelligent people.

I agree but how many people really love accountancy it's not a vocation, it's a well paid profession so you want to maximise your earning potential

Also not everyone has a bad time in the big 4 I had a brilliant time training in KPMG and some of my best friends are from that time

Martin567

Cyrus wrote: »

I agree but how many people really love accountancy it's not a vocation, it's a well paid profession so you want to maximise your earning potential

Also not everyone has a bad time in the big 4 I had a brilliant time training in KPMG and some of my best friends are from that time

I was thinking more in terms of the size of the organisations. Many intelligent people simply will not enjoy the working environment of a Big 4 firm or a MNC. They will be far happier in smaller organisations.

If this means that they are not maximising their earning potential, so be it. Everyone is different and should follow their own heart. I don't believe there is one route or set of advice that is appropriate to everyone.

Jim2007

ryanf1 wrote: »

What are people's opinions on qualifying with small firms versus medium to big4?
I've seen jobs on the CAI website in smaller firms with 4 partners or less. I'm a bit unsure of the future prospects after you come off contract when you have a less known firm on your CV and your work has been mainly with small businesses or self employed people so you might not have exposure to bigger audits or tax jobs.

The most important thing right now is to get qualified. In a thirty year career what you did in the first 3 years will have very little impact on how things turn out. There are plenty of opportunities out there to make a good career and enjoy a good work life balance, it's up to you to take advantage of them. For example, take a look at the SMI, among it are some of the largest companies in the world and they are always looking for qualified people, then realise that there are only about 2,500 qualified accountants in Switzerland and that as a CA you are entitled to practice there! There are plenty of opportunities all over Europe for you to do something interesting for a few years or more and your experience will put you ahead of most of your peers on your return to Ireland, if that is what you choose to do (although very few do).

emmetkenny wrote: »

All along when I was in college my plan was to get qualified then work in a Big 4 for a few years and get a tax qualification after my aca, then maybe move to revenue for a year or two or take a step sideways and work in industry. My end goal after that and a bit of travelling was to settle down and work in a small firm where I'm from or maybe set up my own practice with a few college friends, all bar one have big 4 experience.

If you are really that passionate about accounting fine, but if you are not then 30+ years spend doing something you are anything but passionate about.....

Martin567 wrote: »

Some people may laugh and maybe I'm in a small minority thinking like that among users of this forum. I just think that those thinking of a future career path should have more in mind than simply maximising their future salary. There is much more to life than that and it is a route not suited to many very intelligent people.

Well you may be in the minority, but I'm there too! At the end of my training contact with one of the big 4, I realised two things, first most of the people who had "made it" had health problems - heart, stress, depression, burn out etc... and in fact my reporting partner died on the job of a heart attack at 50! And the second thing was that the last thing I wanted to do was spend the next 30 years doing the same thing - it was just too boring - sorry guys.

So at the end of my training contract in 1987, I turned down their offer of employment and I headed to Austria to spend the summer climbing in the Alps with a few friends. At the end of the summer they headed back to Ireland and I headed to Zurich to see if I could find an accounting assignment as the money was running low and I wanted to stay around for the skiing season. Funny thing was that at my first interview, which was not going so well as my German was still terrible, the guy mentioned that he was having difficult finding a Cobol programmer... so I put myself forward for that instead and we agreed a rate of CHF120 per hour for a six months assignment, which to me was crazy money back then! And that is the way I've supported my family ever since - consulting assignments in accounting/finance, software engineering and business process reengineering.. mixed with 6 months to a year off here and there to do things that interest us.

"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

I agree but how many people really love accountancy it's not a vocation, it's a well paid profession so you want to maximise your earning potential

But to what end? The point is that if you are well qualified, you can live very comfortably, enjoy a good work life balance and avoid most to the stress that most people are going through every day!

A guy I went to school with, moved to the Black Forest area in Germany, he bought two apartments in a tourist area, one of which he lives in with his family, the other he rents out to tourists. On top of that he works 50% teaching business English at a rate of 90 Euros an hour net! So he takes home about 1,800 Euros a week plus the apartment rental and has 2 or 3 days a week off!

As I already said I have not had a permanent job since 1987 - I usually only work 8 or 9 months of the year, unless it is something that really interests me and I can still earn enough to comfortably support my family and put enough aside to retire at 55 - not long now

Gael23

Jim2007 wrote: »

The most important thing right now is to get qualified. In a thirty year career what you did in the first 3 years will have very little impact on how things turn out. There are plenty of opportunities out there to make a good career and enjoy a good work life balance, it's up to you to take advantage of them. For example, take a look at the SMI, among it are some of the largest companies in the world and they are always looking for qualified people, then realise that there are only about 2,500 qualified accountants in Switzerland and that as a CA you are entitled to practice there! There are plenty of opportunities all over Europe for you to do something interesting for a few years or more and your experience will put you ahead of most of your peers on your return to Ireland, if that is what you choose to do (although very few do).


"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela

Great post there. I started this because I had an idea that experience in a top 10 firm is needed in order to go places with your career. These firms are not really an option for me because I don't have the academic requirements.

While I think it's important to have an adequate salary, let's face it you won't be loaded as a trainee anywhere so that's not the main deciding factor.
I haven't given huge thought to my long term career but at this moment I see myself in practice rather than industry.

Cyrus

Martin567 wrote: »

I was thinking more in terms of the size of the organisations. Many intelligent people simply will not enjoy the working environment of a Big 4 firm or a MNC. They will be far happier in smaller organisations.

If this means that they are not maximising their earning potential, so be it. Everyone is different and should follow their own heart. I don't believe there is one route or set of advice that is appropriate to everyone.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at regarding intelligence? The big 4 take the most intelligent people generally or at least the most academically intelligent.

Martin567

Cyrus wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at regarding intelligence? The big 4 take the most intelligent people generally or at least the most academically intelligent.

I wasn't "getting at" anything. I have no doubt everyone working in the Big 4 is very intelligent.

A few posts on this thread seemed to imply that the most intelligent people should always choose the Big 4, given the choice. I am simply questioning this advice. Many intelligent people will be more than academically qualified but would still be better suited to a smaller firm.

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at regarding intelligence? The big 4 take the most intelligent people generally or at least the most academically intelligent.

Well I can't speak for Martin, but I understand it to mean that there are a lot more intellectually challenging things out there that beat doing an audit or a tax return.

Most of my work involves developing computer models of some kind or another and requires a solid knowledge of finance and maths. And yes I encounter a fair few ex-accountants that have moved over for the intellectual challenge.

And yes I still get a kick out of walking through an office or dealing room and seeing people using the models I developed to deal or make decisions on reinsurance etc...

Cyrus

Martin567 wrote: »

I wasn't "getting at" anything. I have no doubt everyone working in the Big 4 is very intelligent.

A few posts on this thread seemed to imply that the most intelligent people should always choose the Big 4, given the choice. I am simply questioning this advice. Many intelligent people will be more than academically qualified but would still be better suited to a smaller firm.

Perhaps that doesn't mean their longer term prospects are better served by working in a small firm where you get more rounded experience but aren't exposed to larger clients and don't have the networking opportunities afforded to those working in the large firms .

You don't have to stay after qualifying.

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well I can't speak for Martin, but I understand it to mean that there are a lot more intellectually challenging things out there that beat doing an audit or a tax return.

Most of my work involves developing computer models of some kind or another and requires a solid knowledge of finance and maths. And yes I encounter a fair few ex-accountants that have moved over for the intellectual challenge.

And yes I still get a kick out of walking through an office or dealing room and seeing people using the models I developed to deal or make decisions on reinsurance etc...

Totally agree but that's a comment on accountancy full stop not a big firm v a small firm

Jim2007

ryanf1 wrote: »

Great post there. I started this because I had an idea that experience in a top 10 firm is needed in order to go places with your career. These firms are not really an option for me because I don't have the academic requirements.

Well as I said the most important thing is to get the qualification. When you are around your peers, you can often fail to see the value of the qualification - everyone has one or everyone is in the process of getting one. It is only when get out in to the business world that you realise the true value if it - very few people actually have it.

Also the ICAI is very good at promoting the qualification, for instance it is the only one recognised in the US for qualification as a CPA. And I was amazed in going through the Swiss accounting laws, find it specifically referred to as being acceptable for practice in Switzerland!

ryanf1 wrote: »

I haven't given huge thought to my long term career but at this moment I see myself in practice rather than industry.

Be flexible and open to all opportunities, do not turn down anything out of hand, if something interests you pursue it - it is much easier turn up for work if you are doing something that interests you that the other.

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

Totally agree but that's a comment on accountancy full stop not a big firm v a small firm

Actually I say it is a comment on big firms rather than small firms - they tend to recruit the top flight graduates and then fail to provide the intellectual challenges they need - I remember one time having to supervise two graduates with 1.1 honours, while they spent a month going through old audit files apply the document retention policy - I was bored having to check up on them, never mind have to actually to over the files!

The work in a small office might not be more challenging, but you tend to get more control over your work, interaction with the client and good social atmosphere - not the revolving door type stuff of the big 4.

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

Actually I say it is a comment on big firms rather than small firms - they tend to recruit the top flight graduates and then fail to provide the intellectual challenges they need - I remember one time having to supervise two graduates with 1.1 honours, while they spent a month going through old audit files apply the document retention policy - I was bored having to check up on them, never mind have to actually to over the files!

The work in a small office might not be more challenging, but you tend to get more control over your work, interaction with the client and good social atmosphere - not the revolving door type stuff of the big 4.

all depends on the department you are in i guess,

disagree with the comment on the social atmosphere, in a lot of ways a big 4 contract is like an extension of college socially :P