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Training contract with small firm

Gael23

What are people's opinions on qualifying with small firms versus medium to big4?
I've seen jobs on the CAI website in smaller firms with 4 partners or less. I'm a bit unsure of the future prospects after you come off contract when you have a less known firm on your CV and your work has been mainly with small businesses or self employed people so you might not have exposure to bigger audits or tax jobs.

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stephen1990

Don't mind that nonsense of having to work in a big 4 firm to have a good CV or whatever...your main aim is to pass the exams and you'll come out with the exact same qualification as someone that has worked in the big 4 and will have a less miserable 3 and a half years on top if it

Gael23

Well that's one way of looking at it. The firm I'm looking at seems to work for small business like doctors etc so I'm really just thinking about how that sort of work would be viewed once the 3.5 years is up.

viztopia

The big 4 take on lots of people who have qualified from small firms all the time

dbran

stephen1990 wrote: »

Don't mind that nonsense of having to work in a big 4 firm to have a good CV or whatever...your main aim is to pass the exams and you'll come out with the exact same qualification as someone that has worked in the big 4 and will have a less miserable 3 and a half years on top if it

This is not true in reality.

For some larger financial controller jobs afterwards having a big 4 training on your cv is not just desirable but is a prerequiste.

stephen1990

dbran wrote: »

This is not true in reality.

For some larger financial controller jobs afterwards having a big 4 training on your cv is not just desirable but is a prerequiste.

you could move to the big 4 after you qualify, I don't think larger financial controller jobs hire people just with 3.5 years training in the big 4.

get your qualification and ya'll be fine.

Gael23

stephen1990 wrote: »

you could move to the big 4 after you qualify, I don't think larger financial controller jobs hire people just with 3.5 years training in the big 4.

get your qualification and ya'll be fine.

Big4 firms won't even read an application without a 2:1. Part of me is considering doing a masters to get that 2:1 then apply next year but now my opinion of small firms is starting to change.

Martin567

I trained in a small firm and have never worked in a very big firm. I can only say that you will get a very good and rounded training in a small firm. You will basically do a bit of everything and be familiar with the basics of most things an accountant does.

From what I can gather, those who train in the large firms get a very specialised training. Therefore they are extremely knowledgeable in certain things but there can be huge gaps in their training. I worked with two newly qualified accountants from KPMG who didn't have even the first idea how to prepare a set of accounts. I would consider there to be a fairly fundamental problem with that type of training for a supposedly qualified accountant.

I never worked for a firm with more than three partners but I did work on the audits of countless companies with a turnover of 30m or far more per annum. I also think I got a far better understanding of the clients and how everything pulled together than I would on the audit of a PLC for example.

Nika Bolokov

You will work with more sophisticated clients in a Big 4, especially in financial services, its harder to get in so the people you work with are very smart, there are international opportunities with a Big 4 firm which dont exist in small firms and you see how massive successful companies are run. Small firm trained accountants always say that Big 4 trained accountants dont get a broad training. Not true. Small firm trained accountants only work on small engagements. At a Big 4 you do both.

Lot of jobs say Big 4 trained now also....

Cyrus

stephen1990 wrote: »

Don't mind that nonsense of having to work in a big 4 firm to have a good CV or whatever...your main aim is to pass the exams and you'll come out with the exact same qualification as someone that has worked in the big 4 and will have a less miserable 3 and a half years on top if it

Terrible advice
If you get offered a big 4 role take it better pay better future prospects

viztopia

Cyrus wrote: »

Terrible advice
If you get offered a big 4 role take it better pay better future prospects

Not always true. I know a former work colleague who worked in one of the big 4. He was expected to work all the hours of the day and weekend for a flat salary. He took a €5k pay cut to work some where else after 1 year.

Martin567

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

Small firm trained accountants always say that Big 4 trained accountants dont get a broad training. Not true. Small firm trained accountants only work on small engagements. At a Big 4 you do both.

Lot of jobs say Big 4 trained now also....

What is a small engagement? I doubt everyone's definition is the same?

I can only reiterate that I worked briefly with two KPMG trained accountants who had no idea how to prepare a set of accounts. I've never met anybody who trained in a smaller firm who lacked such basic skills. I think it's fair to say those two people didn't get a broad training!

I've never understood how anyone could audit another person's work if they don't fundamentally understand how that work was done or what was involved in doing it.

Gael23

Well I'm not going to graduate with a 2:1 so that rules out the big4 and quite a number of other firms demand that also. So basically my choices are to go with a smaller firm that will consider you without a 2:1 or else do a masters and apply on the next milkround.

Martin567

ryanf1 wrote: »

Well I'm not going to graduate with a 2:1 so that rules out the big4 and quite a number of other firms demand that also. So basically my choices are to go with a smaller firm that will consider you without a 2:1 or else do a masters and apply on the next milkround.

Good luck in whatever you decide. Some people are likely to be far happier working in a smaller firm than in a much larger firm. I'm one of them. Have a think about what sort of work environment might suit you best.

There are hundreds of firms in this country. I'm hardly alone in not considering a four partner firm to be small in any way!

Gael23

Martin567 wrote: »

Good luck in whatever you decide. Some people are likely to be far happier working in a smaller firm than in a much larger firm. I'm one of them. Have a think about what sort of work environment might suit you best.

There are hundreds of firms in this country. I'm hardly alone in not considering a four partner firm to be small in any way!

Of course not!
One I have seen advertised has a partner, director and 2 managers according to their website. Not sure if I'm allowed name them here but I would be considering that very small.

Martin567

ryanf1 wrote: »

Of course not!
One I have seen advertised has a partner, director and 2 managers according to their website. Not sure if I'm allowed name them here but I would be considering that very small.

It's obviously not big but there would be many far smaller. Even so, they could have a lot of really good clients.

smcgiff

ryanf1 wrote: »

Not sure if I'm allowed name them here...

Nothing to be gained from it. Thanks.

Cyrus

viztopia wrote: »

Not always true. I know a former work colleague who worked in one of the big 4. He was expected to work all the hours of the day and weekend for a flat salary. He took a €5k pay cut to work some where else after 1 year.

So you proved my point he took a paycut to leave

Some people can't hack it at a big 4 some departments can expect a lot, however completing your training at one will in the vast majority of cases have a positive impact on your earning potential versus someone from a small firm

smcgiff

Cyrus wrote: »

So you proved my point he took a paycut to leave

Some people can't hack it at a big 4 some departments can expect a lot, however completing your training at one will in the vast majority of cases have a positive impact on your earning potential versus someone from a small firm

There are definite advantages to going down the
big 4 route. The main one is the requirements of some in large companies looking for candidates from their alma mater.

Now, whether they are actually better trained accountants is debatable. They are more likely to have experience of working with large companies, but less likely to be a more rounded accountant.

Gael23

smcgiff wrote: »

T
Now, whether they are actually better trained accountants is debatable. They are more likely to have experience of working with large companies, but less likely to be a more rounded accountant.

I do think its true that you get a moe varied experience in a smaller firm alright but my concern is that when the training contract ends, I will be less desirable.

smcgiff

ryanf1 wrote: »

I do think its true that you get a moe varied experience in a smaller firm alright but my concern is that when the training contract ends, I will be less desirable.

If you want to work in multi nationals then the top 5 or six are the way to go if you can. For example I cannot imagine someone coming from the likes of BDO would be at much of a disadvantage over, say, KPMG.

brinty

Ryanf1, it all depends on what way you want to progress in your career really. Do you want to stay in practice post qualification, if you do maybe stay and do the masters and then try for the big 4 next year. It would also help if you intended to continue on working in the financial services sector.

If you want to go into industry and work in day to day operations then having a background from a smaller accountancy firm would give you distinct advantage in that you'd understand how a business works.

If your based in Waterford and intend to stay there's plenty of good non big 4 practices in the city.

Don't get too hung up on traing in the Big 4. I trained in a 2 partner practice and hasn't held me back thus far. I now work for a MNC in their financial services centre, a minimum requirement was Big 4 training but I still got in because i was well rounded based on the experience i gaianed over the years.

If you want any help drop me a PM.

Cyrus

smcgiff wrote: »

There are definite advantages to going down the
big 4 route. The main one is the requirements of some in large companies looking for candidates from their alma mater.

Now, whether they are actually better trained accountants is debatable. They are more likely to have experience of working with large companies, but less likely to be a more rounded accountant.

absolutely agree, not debating that point at all,

the reality is though that in most larger companies (that pay bigger wages) its where you worked and who you worked for, not what you did

littlemiss123

Just giving my 2 cents worth...

I faced exactly the same dilemma coming out of college. I was offered trainee positions in all the Big 4 firms, including one job in consultancy where there were only 2 jobs going. However, I turned them down and took a (very big) gamble and a pay cut to work in a small 2-partner accountancy firm outside the city because I personally felt that a positive working environment was the most important factor for me.

2 years down the line I can confidently say I don't regret my decision at all. I am treated extremely well and with the respect that everyone should be afforded in the professional life, regardless of whether they are a trainee or partner. I have a close working relationship with both partners and deal with clients the world over including America, Singapore, India, Cayman Islands, Malta to name but a few, and have the opportunity to travel to such locations. I deal with big 4 auditors every day and would not call their knowledge or training superior to my own. I feel I am getting a well rounded experience, and have the bonus of never having to work a single weekend, or even past 8pm. In addition, because there are fewer trainees it gives you a chance to shine and be noticed, rather than just fading into the mass of other trainees around you.

Of course, having never worked in a Big 4 my opinion is going to be biased, and despite the horror stories, I'm sure the Big 4 does provide valuable experience. However, what does annoy me is this mentality that your career as an accountant is over before its begun if you didn't train in the Big 4, or that you have to 'earn your stripes' by going through 3 1/2 years of hell to be a respected accountant. There are excellent opportunities out there if you think outside the box and take a leap!

TitianGerm

littlemiss123 wrote: »

Just giving my 2 cents worth...

I faced exactly the same dilemma coming out of college. I was offered trainee positions in all the Big 4 firms, including one job in consultancy where there were only 2 jobs going. However, I turned them down and took a (very big) gamble and a pay cut to work in a small 2-partner accountancy firm outside the city because I personally felt that a positive working environment was the most important factor for me.

2 years down the line I can confidently say I don't regret my decision at all. I am treated extremely well and with the respect that everyone should be afforded in the professional life, regardless of whether they are a trainee or partner. I have a close working relationship with both partners and deal with clients the world over including America, Singapore, India, Cayman Islands, Malta to name but a few, and have the opportunity to travel to such locations. I deal with big 4 auditors every day and would not call their knowledge or training superior to my own. I feel I am getting a well rounded experience, and have the bonus of never having to work a single weekend, or even past 8pm. In addition, because there are fewer trainees it gives you a chance to shine and be noticed, rather than just fading into the mass of other trainees around you.

Of course, having never worked in a Big 4 my opinion is going to be biased, and despite the horror stories, I'm sure the Big 4 does provide valuable experience. However, what does annoy me is this mentality that your career as an accountant is over before its begun if you didn't train in the Big 4, or that you have to 'earn your stripes' by going through 3 1/2 years of hell to be a respected accountant. There are excellent opportunities out there if you think outside the box and take a leap!

Great advice littlemiss. I actually am in a slightly different situation as I got a 2.2 in college and struggled to find a training contract. I started the elevation program with the institute in 2012 i think. Since tthen I've got a job with one of the top twenty firms but am working in one of the smaller offices, just myself and 3 qualified accountants, i have to say it's great. I do my utmost to impress each day and put in a hard slog. I started in September and have only worked past 6 twice although I've offered to stay late on countless other times during tax return deadline time and while we were doing audits before Christmas, each time I've been told by my manager that I've done more than enough and it's time to go home. The relationship I've built with my co-workers is great and i know if I've any problems i can go to any of them for advice.
Do not discount the smaller firms. You will get a great training regardless. But remember you will only progress in your career if you show grit and determination and a willingness to strive to be the best you can, and this alone will impress future employers more than having a big 4 on your CV.
Apologies for the poor punctuation and spelling, im typing this on a phone

littlemiss123

emmetkenny wrote: »

Great advice littlemiss. I actually am in a slightly different situation as I got a 2.2 in college and struggled to find a training contract. I started the elevation program with the institute in 2012 i think. Since tthen I've got a job with one of the top twenty firms but am working in one of the smaller offices, just myself and 3 qualified accountants, i have to say it's great. I do my utmost to impress each day and put in a hard slog. I started in September and have only worked past 6 twice although I've offered to stay late on countless other times during tax return deadline time and while we were doing audits before Christmas, each time I've been told by my manager that I've done more than enough and it's time to go home. The relationship I've built with my co-workers is great and i know if I've any problems i can go to any of them for advice.
Do not discount the smaller firms. You will get a great training regardless. But remember you will only progress in your career if you show grit and determination and a willingness to strive to be the best you can, and this alone will impress future employers more than having a big 4 on your CV.
Apologies for the poor punctuation and spelling, im typing this on a phone

I agree, in a small firm you develop such a close relationship with those around you, the free-rider problem is eliminated and you have to (and want to) pull your weight to impress. I am the same, I say I have never stayed past 8 but I can honestly say I have only ever had to stay past half 5 on about 10-15 occasions in the last 2 years. I always offer to stay and help, same as yourself, but am always told its fine and to head away. Anytime I do stay late or bust my balls to meet a deadline I am always met with a thanks and the utmost appreciation or a handshake and a 'job well done'. I would not replace any of that just to have the Big 4 on my CV.

TitianGerm

littlemiss123 wrote: »

I agree, in a small firm you develop such a close relationship with those around you, the free-rider problem is eliminated and you have to (and want to) pull your weight to impress. I am the same, I say I have never stayed past 8 but I can honestly say I have only ever had to stay past half 5 on about 10-15 occasions in the last 2 years. I always offer to stay and help, same as yourself, but am always told its fine and to head away. Anytime I do stay late or bust my balls to meet a deadline I am always met with a thanks and the utmost appreciation or a handshake and a 'job well done'. I would not replace any of that just to have the Big 4 on my CV.

That's what it is all about though. Show that you want to achieve and are willing to work hard and you will get a great sense of satisfaction out of a smaller firm. Not long after I started my manager asked me to start a project for him, he was out of the office the next day, Friday, so I worked my ass off and finished the whole thing before I left on Friday evening. I got a phone call on Saturday morning saying that he was very impressed with my work and more so because he had given me two weeks to finish it and I'd got it done in two days

I left college in 2008 and worked in many jobs since 2005, it's the first time I've felt truly appreciated and it's that that makes me love going to work everyday and wanting to do well, not for myself but for the firm.
You will become a trusted advisor to many of your clients and eventually friends in many cases. This is not to be sniffed at because a lot of business will be done by SME and owner managed businesses coming out of this recession and they won't turn to the big four, they will look at the smaller firms who will get in and help build and develop their business, as smaller firms are working with these types of businesses day in and day out !!

Gael23

Would both of you have intentions of staying with your firms after your contract ends?

TitianGerm

ryanf1 wrote: »

Would both of you have intentions of staying with your firms after your contract ends?

I couldn't answer just yet 100% as I'm 5 months into a 42 month contract but the way things are going I would be happy to stay where I am for another few years and get some post qualifications experience.
All along when I was in college my plan was to get qualified then work in a Big 4 for a few years and get a tax qualification after my aca, then maybe move to revenue for a year or two or take a step sideways and work in industry. My end goal after that and a bit of travelling was to settle down and work in a small firm where I'm from or maybe set up my own practice with a few college friends, all bar one have big 4 experience.
Now however I'm very happy where I am and they are very good to work for and they gave me a chance when nobody else would so I already have a strong attachment to the firm.
But this is all for the future, and maybe they will not offer me a contract when my current one is up and I will have to reassess in two and a half years.

Immy

I trained small practice. I have a lot of friends accountants who trained in different ways and are all in different roles. I wouldn't think Big 4 was the be all and end. I got into a big 4 after spending 2 years post qualified in small practice and lasted 4 months, just not for me. You get out of your career what you put in.

littlemiss123

ryanf1 wrote: »

Would both of you have intentions of staying with your firms after your contract ends?

I can't really say for sure either. I still have another bit left on my training contract so I just don't know what I would be feeling when it's over. If it suited me at the time I definitely would, even though to be honest, I suspect I might take off for a year and work abroad somewhere on a couple of short term contracts, just for the sake of it, and then come back to my small firm. They've told me from the beginning that they will be accommodating if I wanted to travel etc after my contract is up!