Training contract with small firm

Jim2007

dbran wrote: »

This is not true in reality.

For some larger financial controller jobs afterwards having a big 4 training on your cv is not just desirable but is a prerequiste.

In Ireland perhaps, but if you at senior financial positions at multinationals across Europe you'll be hard pressed to find qualified accountants, let alone big 4 experience.....

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

In Ireland perhaps, but if you at senior financial positions at multinationals across Europe you'll be hard pressed to find qualified accountants, let alone big 4 experience.....

And in senior finance positions in Ireland and the uk most people are qualified accounts, with big 4 training

CIARAN_BOYLE

I'm working in a small firm (6 professional staff, 2 partners two seniors and two trainees) and I'm enjoying it.

I started in September and have done a broad range of different activities. I've also had the opportunity to lead an audit, small client but still, to work on many different companies in different business areas. To work on sole traders, personal tax.

The big 4 has horror stories but I'm sure it works out well too sometimes.

Santi101

Would anyone know of people who went from a big firm to a small one after training?

To get experience in other areas - preparing accounts, tax etc.

Wonder if that would be a decent route to take.

Martin567

Santi101 wrote: »

Would anyone know of people who went from a big firm to a small one after training?

To get experience in other areas - preparing accounts, tax etc.

Wonder if that would be a decent route to take.

The problem I would see is that a newly qualified Big 4 trained accountant will usually have certain salary expectations. It is unlikely that a small firm will be able to carry such a person while they learn the basics and still pay the required salary.

Is there not something fundamentally wrong with a system where people can qualify as accountants after receiving little or no training in how to prepare a set of accounts?

Cyrus

folks

there is no doubt that jobs in a smaller firm can be very fulfilling, that you can get a more rounded training experience etc, i dont think anyone would dispute that.

but the query was about future prospects, in that respect there is no comparison. when you finish your big 4 training contract your salary expectations will be at the 50k mark, someone leaving a small firm could be 15k less than that, and from what i've seen recently in hiring some qualified accountants that salary gap tends to exist for quite some time (obviously there are exceptions in both cases but i am speaking in generalities)

Martin567

Define future prospects. Is it about salary and nothing else?

It may well be that the OP is thinking exactly that and if so they should probably follow the advice above. While a decent salary is of course important, I'm old enough now to have that far from my number one priority. Quite simply, there are more important things in life. Just to use round figures as an example, I would far, far prefer to earn 60k doing something I enjoyed rather than 100k doing something I hated. The extra money is simply not worth the misery.

Some people may laugh and maybe I'm in a small minority thinking like that among users of this forum. I just think that those thinking of a future career path should have more in mind than simply maximising their future salary. There is much more to life than that and it is a route not suited to many very intelligent people.

Cyrus

Martin567 wrote: »

Define future prospects. Is it about salary and nothing else?

It may well be that the OP is thinking exactly that and if so they should probably follow the advice above. While a decent salary is of course important, I'm old enough now to have that far from my number one priority. Quite simply, there are more important things in life. Just to use round figures as an example, I would far, far prefer to earn 60k doing something I enjoyed rather than 100k doing something I hated. The extra money is simply not worth the misery.

Some people may laugh and maybe I'm in a small minority thinking like that among users of this forum. I just think that those thinking of a future career path should have more in mind than simply maximising their future salary. There is much more to life than that and it is a route not suited to many very intelligent people.

I agree but how many people really love accountancy it's not a vocation, it's a well paid profession so you want to maximise your earning potential

Also not everyone has a bad time in the big 4 I had a brilliant time training in KPMG and some of my best friends are from that time

Martin567

Cyrus wrote: »

I agree but how many people really love accountancy it's not a vocation, it's a well paid profession so you want to maximise your earning potential

Also not everyone has a bad time in the big 4 I had a brilliant time training in KPMG and some of my best friends are from that time

I was thinking more in terms of the size of the organisations. Many intelligent people simply will not enjoy the working environment of a Big 4 firm or a MNC. They will be far happier in smaller organisations.

If this means that they are not maximising their earning potential, so be it. Everyone is different and should follow their own heart. I don't believe there is one route or set of advice that is appropriate to everyone.

Jim2007

ryanf1 wrote: »

What are people's opinions on qualifying with small firms versus medium to big4?
I've seen jobs on the CAI website in smaller firms with 4 partners or less. I'm a bit unsure of the future prospects after you come off contract when you have a less known firm on your CV and your work has been mainly with small businesses or self employed people so you might not have exposure to bigger audits or tax jobs.

The most important thing right now is to get qualified. In a thirty year career what you did in the first 3 years will have very little impact on how things turn out. There are plenty of opportunities out there to make a good career and enjoy a good work life balance, it's up to you to take advantage of them. For example, take a look at the SMI, among it are some of the largest companies in the world and they are always looking for qualified people, then realise that there are only about 2,500 qualified accountants in Switzerland and that as a CA you are entitled to practice there! There are plenty of opportunities all over Europe for you to do something interesting for a few years or more and your experience will put you ahead of most of your peers on your return to Ireland, if that is what you choose to do (although very few do).

emmetkenny wrote: »

All along when I was in college my plan was to get qualified then work in a Big 4 for a few years and get a tax qualification after my aca, then maybe move to revenue for a year or two or take a step sideways and work in industry. My end goal after that and a bit of travelling was to settle down and work in a small firm where I'm from or maybe set up my own practice with a few college friends, all bar one have big 4 experience.

If you are really that passionate about accounting fine, but if you are not then 30+ years spend doing something you are anything but passionate about.....

Martin567 wrote: »

Some people may laugh and maybe I'm in a small minority thinking like that among users of this forum. I just think that those thinking of a future career path should have more in mind than simply maximising their future salary. There is much more to life than that and it is a route not suited to many very intelligent people.

Well you may be in the minority, but I'm there too! At the end of my training contact with one of the big 4, I realised two things, first most of the people who had "made it" had health problems - heart, stress, depression, burn out etc... and in fact my reporting partner died on the job of a heart attack at 50! And the second thing was that the last thing I wanted to do was spend the next 30 years doing the same thing - it was just too boring - sorry guys.

So at the end of my training contract in 1987, I turned down their offer of employment and I headed to Austria to spend the summer climbing in the Alps with a few friends. At the end of the summer they headed back to Ireland and I headed to Zurich to see if I could find an accounting assignment as the money was running low and I wanted to stay around for the skiing season. Funny thing was that at my first interview, which was not going so well as my German was still terrible, the guy mentioned that he was having difficult finding a Cobol programmer... so I put myself forward for that instead and we agreed a rate of CHF120 per hour for a six months assignment, which to me was crazy money back then! And that is the way I've supported my family ever since - consulting assignments in accounting/finance, software engineering and business process reengineering.. mixed with 6 months to a year off here and there to do things that interest us.

"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

I agree but how many people really love accountancy it's not a vocation, it's a well paid profession so you want to maximise your earning potential

But to what end? The point is that if you are well qualified, you can live very comfortably, enjoy a good work life balance and avoid most to the stress that most people are going through every day!

A guy I went to school with, moved to the Black Forest area in Germany, he bought two apartments in a tourist area, one of which he lives in with his family, the other he rents out to tourists. On top of that he works 50% teaching business English at a rate of 90 Euros an hour net! So he takes home about 1,800 Euros a week plus the apartment rental and has 2 or 3 days a week off!

As I already said I have not had a permanent job since 1987 - I usually only work 8 or 9 months of the year, unless it is something that really interests me and I can still earn enough to comfortably support my family and put enough aside to retire at 55 - not long now

Gael23

Jim2007 wrote: »

The most important thing right now is to get qualified. In a thirty year career what you did in the first 3 years will have very little impact on how things turn out. There are plenty of opportunities out there to make a good career and enjoy a good work life balance, it's up to you to take advantage of them. For example, take a look at the SMI, among it are some of the largest companies in the world and they are always looking for qualified people, then realise that there are only about 2,500 qualified accountants in Switzerland and that as a CA you are entitled to practice there! There are plenty of opportunities all over Europe for you to do something interesting for a few years or more and your experience will put you ahead of most of your peers on your return to Ireland, if that is what you choose to do (although very few do).


"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela

Great post there. I started this because I had an idea that experience in a top 10 firm is needed in order to go places with your career. These firms are not really an option for me because I don't have the academic requirements.

While I think it's important to have an adequate salary, let's face it you won't be loaded as a trainee anywhere so that's not the main deciding factor.
I haven't given huge thought to my long term career but at this moment I see myself in practice rather than industry.

Cyrus

Martin567 wrote: »

I was thinking more in terms of the size of the organisations. Many intelligent people simply will not enjoy the working environment of a Big 4 firm or a MNC. They will be far happier in smaller organisations.

If this means that they are not maximising their earning potential, so be it. Everyone is different and should follow their own heart. I don't believe there is one route or set of advice that is appropriate to everyone.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at regarding intelligence? The big 4 take the most intelligent people generally or at least the most academically intelligent.

Martin567

Cyrus wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at regarding intelligence? The big 4 take the most intelligent people generally or at least the most academically intelligent.

I wasn't "getting at" anything. I have no doubt everyone working in the Big 4 is very intelligent.

A few posts on this thread seemed to imply that the most intelligent people should always choose the Big 4, given the choice. I am simply questioning this advice. Many intelligent people will be more than academically qualified but would still be better suited to a smaller firm.

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at regarding intelligence? The big 4 take the most intelligent people generally or at least the most academically intelligent.

Well I can't speak for Martin, but I understand it to mean that there are a lot more intellectually challenging things out there that beat doing an audit or a tax return.

Most of my work involves developing computer models of some kind or another and requires a solid knowledge of finance and maths. And yes I encounter a fair few ex-accountants that have moved over for the intellectual challenge.

And yes I still get a kick out of walking through an office or dealing room and seeing people using the models I developed to deal or make decisions on reinsurance etc...

Cyrus

Martin567 wrote: »

I wasn't "getting at" anything. I have no doubt everyone working in the Big 4 is very intelligent.

A few posts on this thread seemed to imply that the most intelligent people should always choose the Big 4, given the choice. I am simply questioning this advice. Many intelligent people will be more than academically qualified but would still be better suited to a smaller firm.

Perhaps that doesn't mean their longer term prospects are better served by working in a small firm where you get more rounded experience but aren't exposed to larger clients and don't have the networking opportunities afforded to those working in the large firms .

You don't have to stay after qualifying.

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well I can't speak for Martin, but I understand it to mean that there are a lot more intellectually challenging things out there that beat doing an audit or a tax return.

Most of my work involves developing computer models of some kind or another and requires a solid knowledge of finance and maths. And yes I encounter a fair few ex-accountants that have moved over for the intellectual challenge.

And yes I still get a kick out of walking through an office or dealing room and seeing people using the models I developed to deal or make decisions on reinsurance etc...

Totally agree but that's a comment on accountancy full stop not a big firm v a small firm

Jim2007

ryanf1 wrote: »

Great post there. I started this because I had an idea that experience in a top 10 firm is needed in order to go places with your career. These firms are not really an option for me because I don't have the academic requirements.

Well as I said the most important thing is to get the qualification. When you are around your peers, you can often fail to see the value of the qualification - everyone has one or everyone is in the process of getting one. It is only when get out in to the business world that you realise the true value if it - very few people actually have it.

Also the ICAI is very good at promoting the qualification, for instance it is the only one recognised in the US for qualification as a CPA. And I was amazed in going through the Swiss accounting laws, find it specifically referred to as being acceptable for practice in Switzerland!

ryanf1 wrote: »

I haven't given huge thought to my long term career but at this moment I see myself in practice rather than industry.

Be flexible and open to all opportunities, do not turn down anything out of hand, if something interests you pursue it - it is much easier turn up for work if you are doing something that interests you that the other.

Jim2007

Cyrus wrote: »

Totally agree but that's a comment on accountancy full stop not a big firm v a small firm

Actually I say it is a comment on big firms rather than small firms - they tend to recruit the top flight graduates and then fail to provide the intellectual challenges they need - I remember one time having to supervise two graduates with 1.1 honours, while they spent a month going through old audit files apply the document retention policy - I was bored having to check up on them, never mind have to actually to over the files!

The work in a small office might not be more challenging, but you tend to get more control over your work, interaction with the client and good social atmosphere - not the revolving door type stuff of the big 4.

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

Actually I say it is a comment on big firms rather than small firms - they tend to recruit the top flight graduates and then fail to provide the intellectual challenges they need - I remember one time having to supervise two graduates with 1.1 honours, while they spent a month going through old audit files apply the document retention policy - I was bored having to check up on them, never mind have to actually to over the files!

The work in a small office might not be more challenging, but you tend to get more control over your work, interaction with the client and good social atmosphere - not the revolving door type stuff of the big 4.

all depends on the department you are in i guess,

disagree with the comment on the social atmosphere, in a lot of ways a big 4 contract is like an extension of college socially :P

Gael23

I would have thought that the bigger the number of staff, the better the social environment. That way there will always be someone you'll get along with.
But then I suppose you have a different kind of relationship with. colleagues in a small firms as there are fewer of you

Martin567

Cyrus wrote: »

Perhaps that doesn't mean their longer term prospects are better served by working in a small firm where you get more rounded experience but aren't exposed to larger clients and don't have the networking opportunities afforded to those working in the large firms .

You don't have to stay after qualifying.

We're going around in a circle here. Does longer term prospects simply mean where you can earn the highest salary? I've already given my opinion on that.

There's no right or wrong here. Different things will suit different people. I can hardly be entirely alone in preferring to work in a far smaller office than that provided by the Big 4 or any MNC. I find those work environments to be cold and impersonal. I much prefer having more control over my own work and I like to have a proper understanding of the entire business, not just one little section. I also find it far easier to really get to know people properly.

As you say, you don't have to stay after qualifying. But would you not agree that a Big 4 qualified accountant will find themselves at a disadvantage if they then move to a far smaller business? They may find themselves in a hands on role where it would be taken for granted that they would be able to do things that they have little or no experience of (preparing accounts!).

Jim2007

ryanf1 wrote: »

I would have thought that the bigger the number of staff, the better the social environment. That way there will always be someone you'll get along with.
But then I suppose you have a different kind of relationship with. colleagues in a small firms as there are fewer of you

It really depends on your assignments, on some occasions you might not see some of you colleagues for months! On one occasion I spent five months staying at the Talbot hotel in Wexford, followed by a stent up in Letterkenny. There were some people who I met for the first time at the Christmas party at the end of my first year.

I very much enjoyed myself while training at a big 4 and I still exchange emails with some of the partners from time to time, but it was mainly because I found assignments that were not audit - stock exchange flotations, insolvency, fraud, preparation of briefs for barristers, short term assignments in industry and so on.

Cyrus

Martin567 wrote: »

We're going around in a circle here. Does longer term prospects simply mean where you can earn the highest salary? I've already given my opinion on that.

There's no right or wrong here. Different things will suit different people. I can hardly be entirely alone in preferring to work in a far smaller office than that provided by the Big 4 or any MNC. I find those work environments to be cold and impersonal. I much prefer having more control over my own work and I like to have a proper understanding of the entire business, not just one little section. I also find it far easier to really get to know people properly.

As you say, you don't have to stay after qualifying. But would you not agree that a Big 4 qualified accountant will find themselves at a disadvantage if they then move to a far smaller business? They may find themselves in a hands on role where it would be taken for granted that they would be able to do things that they have little or no experience of (preparing accounts!).

Preparing accounts isnt the hardest thing in the world, its picked up a lot more quickly than the technicalities of some of the more complex account standards that people in small firms wont have been exposed to. Id expect a smart qualified accountant to fill the gaps in their knowledge pretty quickly.

And again it depends on what department you were in, i prepared plenty of sets of accounts during my training, FS is different but in the other audit departments you will generally prepare accounts.

I have had all sorts of roles since i have left, all of which were pretty new to me when i started but i got to grips with them quickly, company accountant in a small plc, investment analyst in a large energy company, FP&A analyst in a US Multinational in the internet industry and currently i am the FC of a large family owned company.

The roles have been varied, but i dont think i would have ended up in any of them without KPMG on my cv, some of them my network was useful in the application process and others where i was given an opportunity to do a role i didnt have the exact experience required but the strength of my cv got me to the role.

By the way i'm with you on one thing, i much prefer smaller companies than MNCs or remaining in a big 4. Training in a big 4 doesnt mean you have to end up in either though.

Jim2007

Martin567 wrote: »

But would you not agree that a Big 4 qualified accountant will find themselves at a disadvantage if they then move to a far smaller business? They may find themselves in a hands on role where it would be taken for granted that they would be able to do things that they have little or no experience of (preparing accounts!).

Well I would not, but then I would not expect that someone coming out of a small office would have great difficulty getting up to speed in general audit either. If you are smart enough to pass the exams, you are smart enough to figure this stuff out as well.

On the other hand if it is some thing special not covered by the exam material that is something else. Say for instance the VAR or T1 ratio at bank, the large cat provision at a reinsurance company and so on. But then again most big 4 people will not either.

Martin567

Cyrus wrote: »

The roles have been varied, but i dont think i would have ended up in any of them without KPMG on my cv, some of them my network was useful in the application process and others where i was given an opportunity to do a role i didnt have the exact experience required but the strength of my cv got me to the role.

Good for you but (please don't take this the wrong way!) I find that thoroughly depressing (though not surprising) reading. I have no doubt you are correct in how things work but it just comes across as an old boys network with everyone looking after people from their old alma mater. Is there still a place for fairness and merit in anything?

I'm obviously just an idealist but it's the sort of thing that makes me question the entire profession. It still doesn't make me wish I worked in KPMG though!!

Over & out!

Cyrus

Martin567 wrote: »

Good for you but (please don't take this the wrong way!) I find that thoroughly depressing (though not surprising) reading. I have no doubt you are correct in how things work but it just comes across as an old boys network with everyone looking after people from their old alma mater. Is there still a place for fairness and merit in anything?

I'm obviously just an idealist but it's the sort of thing that makes me question the entire profession. It still doesn't make me wish I worked in KPMG though!!

Over & out!

Well I got on very well in all of the roles so it worked out well for the companies that hired me, on that basis it will continue to happen. It's not that merit doesn't come into it you still need to beat the other 10-20 people in the interview but it's not a disadvantage to have a big 4 on your cv and a lot of roles specify it.

Jim2007

Martin567 wrote: »

I have no doubt you are correct in how things work but it just comes across as an old boys network with everyone looking after people from their old alma mater. Is there still a place for fairness and merit in anything?

It is has always been like that! A lot of US multinationals have their European HQ in Switzerland and I can tell you that if you want the CFO's job then the best thing to do is go to church! 'Cause that's where you'll meet all the top guys of the US companies. If you want to do well with the local businesses, then you need to be a good Jass player and have your seat at the Stammtisch. Next to qualification, I'd rank networking ability to be the next required skill.

cson

stephen1990 wrote: »

Don't mind that nonsense of having to work in a big 4 firm to have a good CV or whatever...your main aim is to pass the exams and you'll come out with the exact same qualification as someone that has worked in the big 4 and will have a less miserable 3 and a half years on top if it

Anecdotally I'd disagree with the last bit; I'd say you'd likely have a more miserable time. The support structures in place at the Big 4 are pretty good.

The answer to your question really depends on the type of person you are; some people will thrive in a smaller environment, some will thrive in a bigger environment. Would you rather be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond?

There isn't really a correct answer to your question OP.