Advice on SW tenant issue.

TRS30

Hi

I have a tenant who has been renting my apartment for the last 4 years on rent allowance.

The first lease was €1000 a month which was paid €930 by SW and they paid the rest up front for the first year.

When the first year was up they didn't pay anymore and I just got the SW payment, this was fine as she was staying for awhile and no issues etc.

The SW amount has reduced a bit over the following couple of years however was enough that I was happy with just getting that.

In April last year I had to fill out a form for them from SW and they (SW) only are paying €650 now. I told them this was less than the new lease we signed in April for €850 and they would need to pay the difference.

They agreed however has not paid anything since. I have chased and got one story after another so decided that I want to ask them to either pay all outstanding rent or leave.

They have been there four years (hence the patience with trying to get it sorted) so know they have to get a certain amount of notice etc.

What is the exact process I have to follow as want to do this by the book?

murphaph

Check this out. It's not allowed to provide legal information on boards.ie, so nobody can tell you EXACTLY what you need to do as that would be sailing very close to providing such information IMO.

If in any doubt, consult a specialist solicitor who has handled these things successfully before!

TRS30

I just read the below on the Citizens Information website;

'If you do not pay your rent a notice of termination may be served, only if the rent due has still not been paid 14 days after you get written notification from your landlord of the amount owing.'

So if I send them a letter today stating how much rent is outstanding, if that isn't paid in 14 days I can then give them a notice of termination.

How long does the notice of termination have to be? i.e. do I have to give them another 14 days.

Sorry its just not very clear.

TheBandicoot

TRS30 wrote: »

When the first year was up they didn't pay anymore and I just got the SW payment, this was fine as she was staying for awhile and no issues etc.

The SW amount has reduced a bit over the following couple of years however was enough that I was happy with just getting that.

Why oh why oh why did you ever agree to do that?!?! Of course she is not going to start paying the difference now, she is used to the idea that she doesn't have to pay anything to you. Please don't repeat the mistake, read the advice posted in this thread, read up on the relevant laws and practices, and next time conduct your letting as a professional business.

TRS30

murphaph wrote: »

Check this out. It's not allowed to provide legal information on boards.ie, so nobody can tell you EXACTLY what you need to do as that would be sailing very close to providing such information IMO.

If in any doubt, consult a specialist solicitor who has handled these things successfully before!

Thanks for that.

What would be deemed a 'reasonable time' for step 1?

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Why oh why oh why did you ever agree to do that?!?! Of course she is not going to start paying the difference now, she is used to the idea that she doesn't have to pay anything to you. Please don't repeat the mistake, read the advice posted in this thread, read up on the relevant laws and practices, and next time conduct your letting as a professional business.

I know, I know! In hindsight I should have realised the potential issues this could have caused.

yankinlk

You need to begin the eviction process. Once you let 2 months go by without sending an eviction letter you showed them you could be walked all over. And most likely times are tough and they simply could not afford the top up. When sw was reduced u should have told them the truth, there never really was a hope they would pay more. assuming rent in the area commands more, u shold be able replace them. Of course maybe it does not!

Head over to askaboutmoney.com and look for advice on the notice period. Because they are there for so long you are looking at 2 months notice of eviction. Very little chance (nil) in getting the back rent paid.

TRS30

yankinlk wrote: »

You need to begin the eviction process. Once you let 2 months go by without sending an eviction letter you showed them you could be walked all over. And most likely times are tough and they simply could not afford the top up. When sw was reduced u should have told them the truth, there never really was a hope they would pay more. assuming rent in the area commands more, u shold be able replace them. Of course maybe it does not!

Head over to askaboutmoney.com and look for advice on the notice period. Because they are there for so long you are looking at 2 months notice of eviction. Very little chance (nil) in getting the back rent paid.

Isn't the length of time they have been there irrelevant as there is a set process for non payment of rent?

yankinlk

TRS30 wrote: »

Isn't the length of time they have been there irrelevant as there is a set process for non payment of rent?

Im afraid not. Tenants rights in this regard far outweigh the LL. Oops opened can of worms there. Im no expert, but i know there is implications once the tenant stay past 4 years. Start the process immdiately, or settle for the current sw payment alone.

TRS30

yankinlk wrote: »

Im afraid not. Tenants rights in this regard far outweigh the LL. Oops opened can of worms there. Im no expert, but i know there is implications once the tenant stay past 4 years. Start the process immdiately, or settle for the current sw payment alone.

I have read the PRTB website and from what I can see for non payment of rent, for anytime over 6 months the process is as per link below;

-reasonable time to pay (has had 8 months already)
-14 days to pay
-28 day notice period

Am I missing something??

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/information-on-terminating-a-tenancy-for-rent-arrears

yankinlk

Threshold.ie - has a great explanation. Termination of tenancy by LL.

I think you are right as regards time of notice period, but its worth reading threshold as they give more detail.

murphaph

In cases of failure to pay the agreed rent (arrears) the notice periods are fixed: 14 days notice of arrears then 28 days notice of termination. Doesn't matter how long the tenant has been there.

TRS30

yankinlk wrote: »

Threshold.ie - has a great explanation. Termination of tenancy by LL.

I think you are right as regards time of notice period, but its worth reading threshold as they give more detail.

Thanks- had a read of that site and it seems to confirm the notice periods as per PTRB site.

Just need to decided what is a 'reasonable time' for my first letter to them.

Cuddlesworth

TRS30 wrote: »

I have read the PRTB website and from what I can see for non payment of rent, for anytime over 6 months the process is as per link below;

-reasonable time to pay (has had 8 months already)
-14 days to pay
-28 day notice period

Am I missing something??

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/information-on-terminating-a-tenancy-for-rent-arrears

Sure, the next few steps.

The PRTB case when they don't vacate.
The court case for eviction.
The Guards to process the eviction order if it happens.
The PRTB case for the damage to the property.
The court case for damages.
The sheriff to recover the arrears, which with social welfare tenants is nothing.

TRS30

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Sure, the next few steps.

The PRTB case when they don't vacate.
The court case for eviction.
The Guards to process the eviction order if it happens.
The PRTB case for the damage to the property.
The court case for damages.
The sheriff to recover the arrears, which with social welfare tenants is nothing.

So should be all be done in a couple of months then

yankinlk

In this scenario, i would outline the entire process in the very first letter. Remove any emotion, its all business.

In normal circumstances i think reasonable time would equal payment period. So if u collect weekly rent, the 1 week. If you collect monthly, then monthly.

I think you will be lucky to do this in 2 months like i originally suggested. If you outline the whole process, it may help to focus the tenant on resolving quickly.

Are you planning to return deposit? You may have to.

TRS30

yankinlk wrote: »

In this scenario, i would outline the entire process in the very first letter. Remove any emotion, its all business.

In normal circumstances i think reasonable time would equal payment period. So if u collect weekly rent, the 1 week. If you collect monthly, then monthly.

I think you will be lucky to do this in 2 months like i originally suggested. If you outline the whole process, it may help to focus the tenant on resolving quickly.

Are you planning to return deposit? You may have to.

The deposit one I'm not sure on. I know that I should give it back to them if they leave however if they owe me rent then I find it kind of hard to give money to them, even if it is the correct legal thing to do.

Will cross that bridge when I come to it!

yankinlk

TRS30 wrote: »

The deposit one I'm not sure on. I know that I should give it back to them if they leave however if they owe me rent then I find it kind of hard to give money to them, even if it is the correct legal thing to do.

Will cross that bridge when I come to it!

Best of luck. If you look at it from their point of view, they will struggle to get a deposit for a new place without the old one.

TRS30

yankinlk wrote: »

Best of luck. If you look at it from their point of view, they will struggle to get a deposit for a new place without the old one.

Thanks.

I know that so it might make them realise their best option is to pay me the rent they owe.

Mrs OBumble

yankinlk wrote: »

Best of luck. If you look at it from their point of view, they will struggle to get a deposit for a new place without the old one.

They shouldn't do, given that they've been paying no rent at all for three years!

OP was there something on the welfare forms that you signed every year (or whatever) asking how much rent the tenant was paying? Did you tell the truth on these, ie that the tenant was not paying??

I'm just wondering if your not having received any tenant contribution from them for years might expose you to some other issues ...

djimi

TRS30 wrote: »

The deposit one I'm not sure on. I know that I should give it back to them if they leave however if they owe me rent then I find it kind of hard to give money to them, even if it is the correct legal thing to do.

Will cross that bridge when I come to it!

Assuming they cannot meet the difference between SW and agreed rent, you might consider that its in your best interest to sit down with them, explain the issue to them, agree a mutually agreeable termination notice period and let them leave with their deposit. It could end up saving you a lot of hassle and money in the long run; if they decide to dig their heals in and remain in the property then you could be facing a long legal battle (a year or more) during which time you probably wont get a penny out of them.

TRS30

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They shouldn't do, given that they've been paying no rent at all for three years!

OP was there something on the welfare forms that you signed every year (or whatever) asking how much rent the tenant was paying? Did you tell the truth on these, ie that the tenant was not paying??

I'm just wondering if your not having received any tenant contribution from them for years might expose you to some other issues ...

I'm not sure, I would have to look at the copies of the forms I have at home. I think the only figure mentioned was the lease amount, not what was actually being paid.

What kind of 'issues' are you talking about??

djimi wrote: »

Assuming they cannot meet the difference between SW and agreed rent, you might consider that its in your best interest to sit down with them, explain the issue to them, agree a mutually agreeable termination notice period and let them leave with their deposit. It could end up saving you a lot of hassle and money in the long run; if they decide to dig their heals in and remain in the property then you could be facing a long legal battle (a year or more) during which time you probably wont get a penny out of them.

I will have a think about it over the weekend and then maybe ring them and agree to sit down to discuss however this hasn't got me anywhere do far!

MouseTail

TRS30 wrote: »

I'm not sure, I would have to look at the copies of the forms I have at home. I think the only figure mentioned was the lease amount, not what was actually being paid.

What kind of 'issues' are you talking about??

Technically you could be complicit with welfare fraud. Just get them out though, and you should be ok.

yankinlk

MouseTail wrote: »

Technically you could be complicit with welfare fraud. Just get them out though, and you should be ok.

Any landlord that takes in sw tenants is also complicit in reducing the homeless figures in this country. Without landlords the government would be overrun with riots in the streets for its housing policy.

odds_on

yankinlk wrote: »

In this scenario, i would outline the entire process in the very first letter. Remove any emotion, its all business.

In normal circumstances i think reasonable time would equal payment period. So if u collect weekly rent, the 1 week. If you collect monthly, then monthly.

I think you will be lucky to do this in 2 months like i originally suggested. If you outline the whole process, it may help to focus the tenant on resolving quickly.

Are you planning to return deposit? You may have to.

The RTA 2004 uses 14 days for a notice of arrears during which time if the tenant fails to pay all arrears, a notice of termination may be served. Thus, and it is generally accepted that for any issues where a "reasonable time" is allowed, 14 days is reasonable. This includes a reasonable time where a landlord is required to remedy any faults for which he is liable.

The_Conductor

Legally the 'arrears' are the accumulated arrears since the commencement of the tenancy. The fact that they were continually being part paid- is irrelevant. The OP will have to set up precisely the arrears as they stand- when they were incurred, running totals, the current amount due- and give the tenant 14 notice of this amount. They can agree a payment schedule for the arrears- if both parties agree to it- however, as the tenant has been living here effectively without making any contribution of their own towards the rent since point dot- there is very little incentive for them to suddenly show they mean business.

OP- I'd seriously suggest- serving the notice exactly as per the rules governing the notice.

I'd also suggest taking the tenant aside and telling them that you will agree to return their deposit on the day they vacate the property, and not pursue them for the accumulated arrears, if they agree to vacate the property and leave it in good order.

Whether you want to inform DSFA of the fact that they have not been meeting their commitment to pay their portion of the rent- and this is in fact why you're terminating the tenancy- is your business- but I would suggest that it would be the moral thing to do- as the tenant is sure as hell going to pull the same con on their next landlord.

Calling you complicit in welfare fraud- is going a bit further than I would like to do- but you certainly didn't knock this nail on the head when you were should have done- and signing those annual documents- were in fact making fraudulent represenations on behalf of the tenant- whether or not you actually knew what you were doing.

The_Conductor

wmpdd3

Just a small point, but it is mentioned here numerous times that the tenant is not making any contribution at all. My understanding is that the tenant must always pay the first €30 per person per week, receiving the rent payment.



So a couple paying €180 per week would receive (€180 - €35) = payment of €145 per week, so their contribution would be €35 per week. Assuming they only had a SW payment as their means.

I realise the issue here is another additional top up agreed between the tenant and landlord.

The amount of Rent Supplement that is calculated will generally ensure that your income, after paying rent, does not fall below a minimum level. This level is the basic Supplementary Welfare Allowance rate for your circumstances (€186 for a single person and €310.80 for a couple) minus €30 (or €35 for a couple). You must always pay at least €30 towards your rent. However, you may pay more depending on your means - see 'Rules' above.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Rent-Supplement.aspx#l62fd2



Also OP, what method are you using to document payment of rent, bank deposit / transfer? If there is a rent book hopefully you have included the arrears in the rent due section.

beauf

The main objective should be to get this tenant to leave as soon as amicably possible and get a full paying tenant in as soon as possible. Amicably because you don't want them overstaying or causing damage. There's a very slim chance of getting the arrears, so that would be a lesser objective. IMO anyway.

TRS30

Thanks for all the feedback and advice, much appreciated.

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Also OP, what method are you using to document payment of rent, bank deposit / transfer? If there is a rent book hopefully you have included the arrears in the rent due section.

I have always been paid directly to my account by the Welfare. I asked them initially if they wanted a rent book and they said no so I just keep a spreadsheet with all the rent figures. I never got anything in writing from them about the rent book.

Will this spreadsheet be OK to provide to them now? What info would it need to contain to make it similar to a rent book?

The shortfall in rent since April has been discussed with them many times and I even provided them with a letter back in November detailing the rent situation.

A couple of things happened over the weekend which has complicated matters.

The tenant contacted me to say there was water leaking under the sink and that the dryer wasn't working. I have a plumber looking at the leak and an electrician looking at the dryer tomorrow.

I think it is best if I get these issues sorted before meeting her to give her the first letter (Part 4) about the rent arrears.

So my plan at the moment is:

-Get leak and dryer sorted
-Meet them and issue first letter for rent arrears and give 14 days to pay also give them copy of spreadsheet with rent details.
-If no response then issue second letter giving 14 days to pay
-If no response to that then give 28 notice to vacate premises.

Am I missing anything?

If the dryer cannot be fixed do I have to replace it even if they might not be there is a couple of months?

They insisted on a separate dryer so only got a washing machine when the previous washer/dryer broke. However new tenants might want only a washer/dryer so would be buying a new dryer now and then potentially a new washer/dryer in a couple of months.

Also can I insist on only dealing with the tenant? Their father has contacted me in the past and is quite threatening and a bully.

whomitconcerns

em why would you deal with the father...ONLY deal with your tenant.

djimi

Your dealings should be only with the tenants. If their father tries to get involved just hang up the phone/refuse to talk with them, especially if they are being unreasonable. If they are old enough to rent property then they are old enough to deal with it without needing to get their parents involved...

Wrt the dryer, yes you will need to replace it if needs be. Youre not however obliged to provide a seperate washer and dryer, so its up to you what you give them. If there was a washer/dryer there when they moved in then thats all they are entitled to expect. They have a right nerve making demands when they arent even paying the correct rent...

Mrs OBumble

TRS30 wrote: »

However new tenants might want only a washer/dryer

I think ithat no one will ever want a washer/dryer, if the alternative is to have separate washer and dryer!