Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread IV

rockbeast

Hagz wrote: »

His contract is up at the end of next season.

Had(still have now) high hopes for him - is he playing lock or 6 in AIL when fit?

yuinc

rockbeast wrote: »

Had(still have now) high hopes for him - is he playing lock or 6 in AIL when fit?

lock, hasnt played much at all for Old Belvo this year..

and as far as I'm aware he hasn't been injured..

very few players not in the academy play AIL rugby

Hagz

rockbeast wrote: »

Had(still have now) high hopes for him - is he playing lock or 6 in AIL when fit?

I think he's only played 3 games in the AIL this season. One start at lock and one start at 6, and then a sub appearance at lock.

rockbeast

Hagz wrote: »

I think he's only played 3 games in the AIL this season. One start at lock and one start at 6, and then a sub appearance at lock.

Was it a long-term shoulder issue he had?

Hope he gets a few consecutive games next season. Can never remember him starting more than two in a row, unfortunately, as he genuinely looked to get better with gametime.

Brave and hard but, I think(?), another 6'5"er which in recent years has not been deemed to be tall enough...I disagree...

To paraphrase, "If you're good enough, you're tall enough":)

yuinc

Leinster seem to usually disagree, they place a premium on locks who are at least 6'6..

Hoped he would have played for the 1st team at some stage this season but no luck yet.

rockbeast

yuinc wrote: »

Leinster seem to usually disagree, they place a premium on locks who are at least 6'6..

Hoped he would have played for the 1st team at some stage this season but no luck yet.

Currently, yes, but I hope we don't remain beholden to a marketing/publicity campaign...

If the famous route between Chicago and California was Route 68 would we be setting our heights too high?!:D

Wasn't Brad and isn't Mike Mc 6'5"...

* Alun W-J is 6'5" too. There are probably another 15 examples/exceptions

Hagz

6'4 Mike McCarthy is proof that you can do it. But it's a serious uphill climb.

rockbeast

Hagz wrote: »

6'4 Mike McCarthy is proof that you can do it. But it's a serious uphill climb.

There is a great basketball article online - will try and find it - about optimum heights, and how being a certain height only gives you a statistical advantage...

But, yeah, you can do it at 6'4, 6'5.

Thornbury's 6'8, I think. I hope Gav gets a good run with the A's next year. Always had him down as a future Leinster captain...

Hagz

rockbeast wrote: »

Thornbury's 6'8, I think. I hope Gav gets a good run with the A's next year. Always had him down as a future Leinster captain...

Really? Didn't captain his school side or the Irish underage teams he was involved with. I always figured Ruddock would eventually step into the role.

yuinc

rockbeast wrote: »

There is a great basketball article online - will try and find it - about optimum heights, and how being a certain height only gives you a statistical advantage...

But, yeah, you can do it at 6'4, 6'5.

Thornbury's 6'8, I think. I hope Gav gets a good run with the A's next year. Always had him down as a future Leinster captain...

not sure what basketball has to do with rugby..

a players height/build/athleticism combination is the most important..

most of the time you want your lock to be 115kg+ usually that weight is best carried by someone 198cm+

but there are exceptions..

rockbeast

Hagz wrote: »

Really? Didn't captain his school side or the Irish underage teams he was involved with. I always figured Ruddock would eventually step into the role.

Nah, Just something about the lad when I saw him 3/4 years ago said possible future captain to me...

I'd love to see him take the Leo path. He doesn't look that aggressive, like Leo, but he can be a boss in darker(more artistic!);) ways...

rockbeast

yuinc wrote: »

not sure what basketball has to do with rugby..

a players height/build/athleticism combination is the most important..

most of the time you want your lock to be 115kg+ usually that weight is best carried by someone 198cm+

but there are exceptions..

Not rugby in general, but at lock.

I'm only giving the opinion that maybe 6'6", which in basketball is a statistically relevant height, is not necessarily the be all and end all to judge a lock's professional potential in rugby...lifting (doesn't happen in b'ball), body mass, mobility,(breakdown aggression!) etc, all should be considered...

Buer

rockbeast wrote: »

Nah, Just something about the lad when I saw him 3/4 years ago said possible future captain to me...

I'd love to see him take the Leo path. He doesn't look that aggressive, like Leo, but he can be a boss in darker(more artistic!);) ways...

I think he's much closer to MOK in terms of the type of player he is. Tall bloke, doesn't have a huge amount of aggression in how he plays, nice skills. I don't think we'll be seeing a Leo Cullen type player emerge there at all.

Cullen wasn't particularly dynamic in his aggression i.e. smashing people but he was no angel at all when it came to mixing it in the more sinister areas of the game. He had no problem giving a few punches in his time or grabbing people around the neck from behind. From what I've seen of GT, he doesn't have that element in him.

rockbeast

Buer wrote: »

From what I've seen of GT, he doesn't have that element in him.

We all have our great white hopes we'd like to see come good - I guess Gav is mine

All the hipsters are on the SCM and HB train:D

* Billy D too,feckin hipsters...!

yuinc

Can't see Beirne ever making it..

Frankly Leinster's ability to develop locks is terrible..

You would hope one of Thornbury/Molony can be developed into a top level lock..

Buer

It's usually around this time of year that those in the academy lads in their final year are either given a development contract or shown the door. Usually a good indication of their future is the presence of a highlight reel online advertising their skills.

Andrew Boyle has this posted in the past week so I think we can start to assume he'll be on his way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qREb_6Vcj94

Conor Gilsenan has already announced his move to LI so we'll be losing his talents. I hope he comes back to one of the provinces in the next few years. He's a real talent and was more than comfortable in his debut against Munster at the weekend.

SCM already has a highlight reel online from last year but, due to his illness, was given another year in the academy. He did well in his couple of appearances and plays in a position we're not overly stocked with currently so he may well get a development deal especially with Hudson moving on.

Tadhg Furlong is guaranteed a place in the senior squad (although I think he was already moved to it during the season).

Luke McGrath was officially bumped up to the senior squad already.

I don't know what the future hold for Jordan Coghlan. He has missed a lot of this season and hasn't really kicked on at 12 the way many had hoped. Due to the position change, he might be offered another year in the academy but there are rumours that he may quit altogether and return to his cricket career; a big shame and one of the most promising schools players in recent years. He had knee surgery recently so he's done for this season anyway.

I suspect Colm O'Shea is playing for a contract at the moment and his appearance a couple of weeks ago was his shot to put his hand up. I don't know what will happen but after some injury troubles and the fact that he's 24 next winter, I don't think he's someone that's going to end up a long term player.

James Tracey has had a couple of sub appearances this season. I think he might be handed a one year development deal to see how he goes and to keep an eye on how Brian Byrne goes in the academy. The age profiles of our hookers is good so not really an area of concern with Dundon, our third choice, being only 31.

I think next year's graduates will be a very interesting crop with the likes of Conan, Leavy, Thornbury, Beirne and the Byrne twins all graduating.

rockbeast

yuinc wrote: »

Can't see Beirne ever making it..

Frankly Leinster's ability to develop locks is terrible..

True.

Are the potential Leinster locks getting too much rugby at a young age? Before they have the body mass to take a hit from a veteran prop under the ribs?

I used to laugh at Donal Lenihan when he introduced munster 4/5/8's as "young" when they were 26/27 but now I think he is probably correct...For the average Irish lad's ability to survive as a pro in those positions anyway...

Buer

rockbeast wrote: »

We all have our great white hopes we'd like to see come good - I guess Gav is mine

All the hipsters are on the SCM and HB train:D

* Billy D too,feckin hipsters...!

I think the HB train has come to a shuddering halt in the last year, to be honest. I've seen him a few times and I'm not sure he'll ever have the ability to step up to the level we require. I would think he'll get into the academy squad this year but that's no guarantee based on what I've seen.

People can point to the fact that he'll be back next year at U20 level to make the breakthrough but his big problem is that Peter Robb will be back next year also and, based on their showings at U20 level this year, Robb is a strong candidate for the academy.

yuinc

Heard Conan is getting an early promotion, had been contacted by Connacht so Leinster had to move him up early..
Not that it is early because he is more than ready for pro 12 rugby..

Hagz

yuinc wrote: »

Can't see Beirne ever making it..

Frankly Leinster's ability to develop locks is terrible..

You would hope one of Thornbury/Molony can be developed into a top level lock..

That would be a shame. He impressed me when he played for the u20s. Why do you say that?

It's pretty hard to develop locks. You can't really tell whether a teenager is going to develop to be 6'5 and over. Aside from Iain Henderson, who are Ulster producing? They had to take in Alan O'Connor. Munster are blessed with the experienced Ryan, DOC and POC, but take those guys away and there's not much in the way of young prospects. Dave Foley is coming along well, but he'll be 26 in a few weeks.

That being said, I think things are looking a bit more positive. Thornbury, Molony and Murphy may not be in the mould of Iain Henderson, but they are all tidy players and you would expect at least one of them to come good. And then there's a couple more in the school's system who look to have a lot of potential.

Hagz

Buer wrote: »

People can point to the fact that he'll be back next year at U20 level to make the breakthrough but his big problem is that Peter Robb will be back next year also and, based on their showings at U20 level this year, Robb is a strong candidate for the academy.

Peter Robb isn't eligible next year. But he'll have strong competition in the likes of McKee, Cleary and Ringrose.

rockbeast

Buer wrote: »

Andrew Boyle Yep

Conor Gilsenan I hope he comes back Hope so too

SCM may well get a development deal especially with Hudson moving on. I think he will

Tadhg Furlong is guaranteed a place in the senior squad (although I think he was already moved to it during the season). Yeah

Luke McGrath was officially bumped up to the senior squad already. Yeah

I don't know what the future hold for Jordan Coghlan. Heard two stories. Either way I wouldn't begrudge him

I suspect Colm O'Shea is playing for a contract I'd give Collie a year

James Tracey has had a couple of sub appearances this season. I think he might be handed a one year development deal 1 Year dev

I think next year's graduates will be a very interesting crop with the likes of Conan, Leavy, Thornbury, Beirne and the Byrne twins all graduating.

Conan, Leavy, for sure, and one of the Byrne twins, the hooker I think but I'm sure even their mother can't tell:)

Obviously, I'd like GT to get a contract. Really do think he'll be great, injury permitting at 25/26...

Good post. Cheers. I haven't followed the academy as much this year.

Buer

yuinc wrote: »

Can't see Beirne ever making it..

Frankly Leinster's ability to develop locks is terrible..

You would hope one of Thornbury/Molony can be developed into a top level lock..

I'm not sure it's a case of the ability to develop a certain position being terrible although I do feel we're impatient. We've shown the door to guys like Eoin Sheriff and Mark Flanagan who have done alright elsewhere and were worth investing some more games in. I think it's the same with Marshall now. Aside from scrum half, we've managed to develop successful players in all positions in the past decade.

We've had a lot of guys come through at lock but they just haven't had the goods when looked at. Alan O'Connor was passed over and is with Ulster. Ben Marshall hasn't managed to impress MOC which is really disappointing. Tadhg Beirne looks ok but not much more. Thornbury looks good and I'm optimistic.

The one guy that really could have been good for us was Mick Kearney who was offered a spot and turned it down to join Connacht after already appearing for us at Leinster A level when he was 19. That was a shame; I think he'd have a good few Pro12 caps if he had stayed but, given he's starting HEC games in Galway, it's hard to argue with it.

Buer

Hagz wrote: »

Peter Robb isn't eligible next year. But he'll have strong competition in the likes of McKee, Cleary and Ringrose.

According to Irish rugby site, Robb is only 18. A misprint, I'm guessing?

Hagz

Buer wrote: »

According to Irish rugby site, Robb is only 18. A misprint, I'm guessing?

Yeh, that's a misprint. He's someone I really hope gets an academy contract.

rockbeast

Buer wrote: »

I think the HB train has come to a shuddering halt in the last year, to be honest. I've seen him a few times and I'm not sure he'll ever have the ability to step up to the level we require. I would think he'll get into the academy squad this year but that's no guarantee based on what I've seen.

People can point to the fact that he'll be back next year at U20 level to make the breakthrough but his big problem is that Peter Robb will be back next year also and, based on their showings at U20 level this year, Robb is a strong candidate for the academy.

Yeah, Ruddock did him no favours with the (was it) "pedigree" quote. Bad PR there for sure.

Money would be on Robb now there, I think.

* Academy is meant to be backs oriented for next 3/4 years though so I heard...

yuinc

Recent second row "prospects"

Conor McInerney[27] - 6'5, retired due to injury.
Ciaran Ruddock[25] - 6'4, playing AIL.
Eoin Sheriff[25] - 6'5, missed most of his final season with Leinster due to injury. Squad player with Saracens now.
Mark Flanagan[25] - 6'7, missed most of his final season with Leinster due to injury. Playing pro D2 in France now.
Ben Marshall[23] - 6'5, more of a 6 that might be able to cover lock, no real progress this season.
Mick Kearney[23] - 6'5, playing well for Connacht. Had already accepted a spot at Connacht when Leinster offered him a contract.
Tadhg Beirne[22] - 6'6, injured all season.
Alan O'Connor[21] - 6'5, Ulster Academy, missed most of the season with injury but is back now.
Gavin Thornbury[20] - 6'7, injury interrupted season.
Ross Molony[19] - 6'6, he has been healthy all year and generally looked good enough.

rockbeast

yuinc wrote: »

Recent second row "prospects"

Conor McInerney[27] - 6'5, retired due to injury.
Ciaran Ruddock[25] - 6'4, playing AIL.
Eoin Sheriff[25] - 6'5, missed most of his final season with Leinster due to injury. Squad player with Saracens now.
Mark Flanagan[25] - 6'7, missed most of his final season with Leinster due to injury. Playing pro D2 in France now.
Ben Marshall[23] - 6'5, more of a 6 that might be able to cover lock, no real progress this season.
Mick Kearney[23] - 6'5, playing well for Connacht.
Tadhg Beirne[22] - 6'6, injured all season.
Alan O'Connor[21] - 6'5, Ulster Academy, missed most of the season with injury but is back now.
Gavin Thornbury[20] - 6'7, injury interrupted season.
Ross Molony[19] - 6'6, he has been healthy all year and generally looked good enough.

Thanks for putting that together.

Does this answer my last response to a post of yours? I think it may...

Maybe you can't hang the picture off of the frame at a young age...

rockbeast

rockbeast wrote: »

Maybe you can't hang the picture off of the frame at a young age...

I don't know what I was trying to say there either so don't slate me for it:D

yuinc

Hagz wrote: »

That would be a shame. He impressed me when he played for the u20s. Why do you say that?

It's pretty hard to develop locks. You can't really tell whether a teenager is going to develop to be 6'5 and over. Aside from Iain Henderson, who are Ulster producing? They had to take in Alan O'Connor. Munster are blessed with the experienced Ryan, DOC and POC, but take those guys away and there's not much in the way of young prospects. Dave Foley is coming along well, but he'll be 26 in a few weeks.

That being said, I think things are looking a bit more positive. Thornbury, Molony and Murphy may not be in the mould of Iain Henderson, but they are all tidy players and you would expect at least one of them to come good. And then there's a couple more in the school's system who look to have a lot of potential.

Beirne's frame is slight and since they tried to bulk him up he has really struggled with injuries..

Obviously every lock doesn't need to be the special athlete that Henderson is to be successful and effective.

In regards to players in the schools system there is only one player who I saw this year that I can see being in the academy in the future: James Ryan.

If Murphy and Ryan do indeed join the academy it would be remarkable that one school has produced three academy locks all 6'6 and above in 3 consecutive years.